Reply With QuoteLongine Dolce Vita.
Reading the several 'price rise threads' it seems evident quite a few people are fed up with the prices now on the mid range watches/brands such as Rolex, omega, iwc, and grand seiko. Several people have talked about how these watches used to be aspirational but affordable, now they are unaffordable, and they would from now on be looking at cheaper watches.
What would you think of as the present day aspirational but affordable?
Seiko? Oris? CW? Longine? Rado? What would be your wish list?
Longine Dolce Vita.
Last edited by Mick P; 3rd February 2023 at 22:19.
Seiko Speedtimer
If you aspire to the Rolex 6238 but don't have the cash this is a nice homage.
A certainly very affordable wearable & tbh well put together watch.
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Unfortunately the term ‘aspirational’ spoils the debate by introducing Veblen.
There are genuinely many watches on the market that are a complete package for not much money.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Baltic are a great inexpensive microbrand.
I realise it spoils the debate for some. I'm not saying micro brands aren't great value but I chose to say aspirational as I want to hear views on what is perhaps in the bracket where omega, Rolex etc may have been 30 years ago.
It doesn’t exist. Rolex and Omega are still as aspirational as they were 30 years ago, if not more. Most people who may aspire to a Rolex may not even know they couldn’t buy one even if they had the cash.Originally Posted by LondonNeil
Any other brand -regardless of their intrinsic value and quality- is therefore not ‘aspired to’ (for those who ‘aspire to’ a watch) but a second, more financially realistic option.
It’s not so much that prices have increased, it’s that the aspirations have scaled up as well.
So the only answer you will find is by checking what a Rolex was worth then, compared to an average salary, and do the math for the equivalent price point today.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Not mad on all the ORIS range but the ProPilots are really nice for not too much money.
….and a sensible size and not too thick.
Interesting point Saint, but when those who aspire to say an omega, find it's two, three, five times what they had budgeted, what happens? Some save up, some drop the idea of a 'nice watch' but surely some look at the next level down. There are plenty of watches in the, let's say £1-2000 range and many brands that are recognisable and seen as 'good quality' by many of the non watch collecting fraternity. Are these watches not aspirational yet affordable? Maybe they aren't, maybe the desire for a seamaster or submariner back in the 80's to 00's stemmed from them being quality functional items and no more. I can easily believe that no mechanical watch is seen as filling that need now. What's the market, or future market then for watches here? Will they disappear? Will we have nothing between say microbrand stuff up to let's say £1k, and your £6 ish k, seamaster? Maybe.
Breitling superocean
Omega deville
Grand Seiko quartz
There are plenty of vintage watches that stand toe to toe with vintage Rolex, Omega and so on. For example, the original Certina DS1 is a cracking watch for a few hundred. The classically shaped modern Citizen Exceed models are serious competition for the Grand Seiko, while I personally think that the Chronomaster models are a shade better. There are a host of beautiful Seiko models from their golden age which are remarkably cheap and Mido models using the same case as Patek. There’s a host of choice without following the crowd.
I guess I depends on what one considers aspirational? I get SJs point, but some may ‘aspire’ to own a watch that is not necessarily expensive but is difficult to get hold of, made in limited numbers, not readily available in your home market. i.e. some JDM Gshock or Seiko.
For me I quite like the idea of the Sinn Hunters watch. I need to see it in the metal first as I hate green dials normally. The EZM10 is also on the list.
A custard Breitling diver is also nagging at me.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 4th February 2023 at 07:05.
NOMOS perhaps? Somehow they manage to have a reasonable point of entry while staying classy.
The trouble is, it takes time to reposition a brand. Omega have been working on it for a decade or two. Grand Seiko had to overcome a lot of scepticism and preconceptions about Seiko. It’s hard to think of the brands that now occupy what used to be the Rolex / Omega price point as aspirational, when only last week you thought of them differently. A series of good new models can help, over time. Perhaps Tudor think they are the answer, but I’ll never get over them using Beckham as a brand ambassador.
Agree with both these points!
I like that. Is it available from anywhere other than the WMT website.If you aspire to the Rolex 6238 but don't have the cash this is a nice homage.
A certainly very affordable wearable & tbh well put together watch.
If you like that vintage Rolex chronograph vibe then Alpha sell a silver dial/ST1903 movement jobbie for a very reasonable amount
An homage is not aspirational. Doesn’t mean it’s a bad watch or not desirable. But inspirational, no.
Nomos is only aspirational for some WIS, and likewise for many vintages that can be of outstanding quality at a very comfortable price point.
I see aspirational as what people may see themselves purchasing for a given special occasion. As such many brands may fit the bill, beyond the usual suspects.
But if you say ‘like Rolex or Omega a few years ago’ the only answer is Rolex or Omega.
Most of us here have aspired to a model, balked at the price and got another only to realise that regardless how good the second choice was, it didn’t scratch the itch. Then took the time they needed to save and get the one (very often they subsequently sold it, but then we know it’s a illness).
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Agree itsguy, positioning or repositioning takes decades. CW are going places possibly.
If I think of the watches under £3k that I like currently, several seem to be homages to older models, mm300, 62mas, Rado captain Cook. But sure they should be modern classics!
Aspirational is “one day, I’m going to have one of those”. For me, that was seeing Rolex Submariners on on inside front cover of glassy magazines and supplements when I was younger.
These used to be affordable, in 2010 it was a short wait, 3 years interest free and £80 a month. You didn’t have to be particularly wealthy.
Not withstanding supply side issues, the price of some very average watches is frankly bonkers. Interest free is still available outside of Rolex world, often over 5 years; without that I’m sure sales would collapse. I think aspirational yet affordable is dead. I’m an enormous fan of Nomos and Sinn, and although these are lovely, they are not aspirational. One of the advantages of being a WIS is that I can see the £1500 Nomos Tangente I’m wearing this morning for what it is horologically.
Dave
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Watches are luxury goods - jewellery. This means aspirational and affordable are mutually exclusive concepts. The genius of Rolex in particular has been recognising and ruthlessly-exploiting this.
The biggest names are biggest because they spend the most money on pimping-out their brand.
The less well-known the brand, the less desirable, it's a non-negotiable sliding scale.
IMO, chasing Rolex and Omega's heels are Breitling, Zenith, Hublot, Cartier, IWC, Panerai, Bvlgari, TAG Heuer, maybe Oris - and they are in that list because they spend the £$£$£$ promoting their brands, not necessarily for any terribly tangible core virtues. They're just recognisable to the normies.
From a WIS POV (which is quite different, or should be...), the richly-varied virtues of Nomos, Sinn, Damasko, GO, Dornbluth, Moser, LUC Chopard, Ming, Bremont, CW and a huge host of others jostle for position, but outside of this rarefied atmosphere these names mean nothing...
Perhaps we’re not the right people to ask, as we know far too much about the market, the brands and their histories. It’s hard to rethink your perceptions if you were buying top brands for attainable prices 10 years ago or more. Out there in the real world, I’m sure a B&R would fit the bill, they have some nice (round faced) models starting at under £2k and for around £3k they have appealing sports models. For most people that’s an aspirational luxury watch to save up for, perhaps with a nice trip to Burlington Arcade to buy it. They won’t be comparing it to a five figure GMT with just the right patina and faded bezel and wondering about heritage vs designer brands, they’ll just be feeling good about their fancy watch.
Good points, good points. I largely agree with them and with earls list of brands heading for ever upward prices. I'm left wondering then, does that mean we will see a gap ever widening, between those recognised luxury brands and the sinn, Nomos, damasko, CW etc, a cost gap I mean. If they have limited appeal as a luxury piece of jewellery, are they not overpriced now in summer cases? Why pay £2k for a Rado captain Cook when a CW is a third the cost?
Check again!
Ranked by market share. I don't believe '22 numbers are out yet, but Cartier passed Omega in '21.
Check again!
Ranked by market share. I don't believe '22 numbers are out yet, but Cartier passed Omega in '21.
What? Check facts before making unsupported assertions! Get a grip man!
Good example of me being swayed by what I see on here - seem to be WAY more Omega!
Presently out of stock on there website.Im considering the Montana so you can have mine for £265 posted.
Last edited by P9CLY; 5th February 2023 at 13:10.
Wow I'd never have expected Cartier to be so high! Although there's no strong correlation between that and their 'aspirational position'
I wonder what is meant by market share , I find it hard to believe that Richard Millie sell more watches than Tudor or IWC .
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Share by revenue I assume. Units would be Casio or Timex at the top I’d guess.
Would be good to know the source of that data.
Seems likely to be revenue or maybe worldwide (Asia has some definite quirks in terms of what they value. I believe Buicks are built only for the Chinese market these days).
I don't personally know anyone who owns or wants to own a Cartier watch.
Obviously Rolex want people to see Tudor as the aspirational brand that has taken Rolex's position, as they get all the revenue still, but, while I acknowledge Tudor has its own history (as the poor man's Rolex), I can't help thinking this is just as much marketing as Rolex's position as THE aspirational watch brand.
M
Last edited by snowman; 5th February 2023 at 09:56.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
What do we define as affordable?
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That will vary from person to person, one man’s G Shock is another man’s Richard Mille
I guess the ability to pay for it at market rate without really having to worry about it or make too many sacrifices whilst saving for it?
Given the average wage of a WIS I’d suggest that Tudor are about bang on for rising aspirations and affordability. Affordable and desirable I equate to a couple of months wages which means you have to save for a while and really want - or aspire - to own it. A few months is long enough to put you off if you don’t really want it, at the same time.
I only ‘aspire’ to buy the watch I want with absolutely none of this wait list/AD relationship nonsense. Of course it might take a while to source the exact model you want especially if there’s been a recent update etc, but this silly dance is something I absolutely will not entertain. So the watch has to be readily available, and I won’t be signing any ‘I promise not to sell this within blah blah blah. I’m an adult, you’re a shop, sell me what you’ve got in stock and when the money changes hands I can do what I please. Same as buying bananas from the supermarket.
Yes I'd agree with sinnlover and ped. Something that is a month or SO's wages or significant portion of, so in normal circumstances it could realistically be saved for, in a few months to a year say, and while a significant spend it's not a house or a car type spend. In the current financial situation it might be a lot less though. So depending on earnings and other considerations let's say watches from the top end of seiko prospex (high hundreds) to bottom end of Tudor...£2.5k ish. That is pretty rich for a lot of us that days but if we wanted it for a special birthday or such, we'd probably save enough.
Isn't there? They cost in the same ballpark as Omega and they're selling more units, so presumably more people want them. (granted the difference isn't huge)
It's based on revenue, so RM have to sell a lot less units to move up the scale.
Morgan Stanley do an annual report on the industry, link below to a generic article on it.
I also wondered about the exclusion of brands like Casio and Seiko, even in the longer list above. Presumably there's a criteria at play. Perhaps it's because those companies also have significant other activities outside of watches, but I'm guessing.
https://www.europastar.com/time-busi...icroscope.html
They're shifting 600,000 of them a year apparently. I have no data for this, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are the runaway winner for women's watches.
I wasn't making a specific comment on Cartier Vs omega re aspiration/market share correlation, it was more general. I think most would vote pp, ap, VC etc higher up if considering aspirations only. You could will be right about Cartier though and I'm just saying I'm surprised. Maybe my perception is off, or they sell well in other markets or they sell more ladies and or pm watches. Wherever it is, if we are thinking of entry level ish, and I'd mentioned the seamaster, I see far more of those than gents SS Cartier tanks being worn.
Still, Cartier must be doing some things right so well done them, I look forward to more as more successful brands generally means a healthy industry and more variety.
Hi, picked up a Nethuns scuba 500 vintage, quality is as good as many big brands I've had.
Fascinating question - it's like the John Mayer Hodinkee video where he talks about the future "why didn't we know?" (except that he's no doubt talking a totally different end of the price scale!).
There's been some really good examples mention
Aspirational ('nearly affordable'?) yet future classic seems to mean either;
- It's known but fallen currently out of favour, or
- It's a new brand that people are not yet aware of
Of the former, it could be smaller watches, it could be quartz watches. Older, smaller Breitlings, even things like AP can be relatively affordable but are well out of fashion these days (and maybe in the future, but that's the risk!). So too with quartz, Omega models affordable, GS quartz models offer incredible quality at relatively low prices.
Of the latter perhaps microbrands are or startups are one way - Ming at one point, Naoya Hida as examples. Or perhaps brands that you like, but which are working hard to go upmarket - that seems almost all of them these days, but Nomos has good background and interesting heritage, Oris. Perhaps Tudor too, as they seem to be chasing to fill the gap below Rolex, and moving prices up.
I think finding an under the radar classic is really hard these days with rapid flow of information, as well as a lot of money chasing watches. However that may change, with likely slowing of economies, as well as people opting more for travel and experiences (whereas a lot of money may have came into watches due to covid, when people couldn't travel and spent money on things which could come to them).
In the long run due to inflation money always loses value. If there's a watch we really love (personally) I feel it's always better to save and go for that. In future it will seem relatively affordable, and likely have gone up in value. Some of my watches felt like a real financial shock at the time, but looking back I'm really glad I stretched and bought them. So in the end looking for a a cost-effective purchase may be more of a risk than striving for the watch we actually really love(*)?
(*) For now - before we see something else, flip it, by the other then regret it... (repeat ad nauseam!)
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