Reply With QuoteTFL does not allow electric bikes/scooters on their network.Originally Posted by thieuster
London Fire Brigade have been fairly pro-active in pushing for venues to not allow them.
https://todaytimeslive.com/world/201809.html
Due to fire hazard, shipping companies are / become reluctant to take electric cars on ferries.
TFL does not allow electric bikes/scooters on their network.
London Fire Brigade have been fairly pro-active in pushing for venues to not allow them.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
London Fire brigade are advising builders to not install charging stations in basements of apartment blocks because of fire risk.
I suspect this will include removal/not install in multi storey/underground car parks.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Definitely worth checking, a lot of ferry companies actually have onboard EV chargers.
https://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/f...electric-cars/
From the linked article;
But: a fundamental e-car ban on ships is hardly to be expected.
Trafford Centre in Mcr were told that if an ev catches fire the fire can't be extinguished. The vehicle is covered in some kind of foam and smoulders away for days. Evacuation of the car park and poss buildings involved. Once the battery starts burning that's it.
I don't think it's a big deal, risks have to be assessed and hazard mitigations put in place whenever there's a change. EVs aren't particularly more prone to fires than ICE but there are different challenges for handling them if they do occur. I'd like to see the source of the Fire Brigade advice for full context.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Yep runaway lithium battery fires are a thing, yes they can not be extinguished via normal water based methods however the means to deal with them are available.
Here in NL the fire brigade have developed a response for burning e-bikes/scooters, they put a ‘pop up’ barrier around it and fill the space with a special foam that excludes oxygen, then they leave it alone for 24 hrs. Previously they would burn so long/hot they would fuse to the pavement
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It's a big deal IF they do catch fire. They are very difficult to extinguish - much more so than a conventional ICE vehicle.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Unless you use the known & understood processes for lithium battery fires & then it’s just different.
Read Robcuk's post above. There is an understood process where he lives and part of it involves isolating a vehicle with barriers and foam, in this case just ebikes for 24 hours.
An electric car in an apartment basment garage going up would present a whole new order of problems, not least all the people living there having to be evacuated for a day or more.
An ICE car goes up, it gets put out by conventional means already present on any fire engine, and that's it.
It's different, but it is much more difficult (I did 31 years in the Fire & Rescue Service).
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
When did you retire?
The F&RS at the airfield where I work have processes, methods and kit to deal with battery fires on aircraft already.
It’s more difficult to extinguish a battery fire, yes, but there will be more and more battery vehicles on the roads over the next few years, and it’s the job of the F&RS to get on with planning for it, the same as everything else.
The methods to do it aren’t unavailable, like most things involving change it just needs the will and leadership.
Lithium batteries behave differently, the FRS are on board but, as I said they are difficult to deal with, particularly in a confined space.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Lithium batteries in a confined space are what our F&RS peeps have trained to tackle.
Home batteries tend to be LifePo, so a bit easier to deal with, but fortunately most EVs have higher quality batteries and BMSs than the E-scooters and chargers that regularly go pop.
The EV is a more difficult prospect in some ways due to position in the vehicle - usually underneath/body & chassis built around them. When a sealed battery compartment is added to the mix (IP67 rated usually) it makes things awkward. A lot of EV manufacturers recommend leaving them to burn out (bit difficult if it's on a ferry or in an underground car park!). Formula e have a process which includes a quarantine area for a vehicle with a problem and (ultimately) a way to submerge the whole car (probably the most effective, if not drastic). Belgium have adopted the 'submerge approach' and have equipped themselves with this:-
There are a few propriety extinguishers around with an active additive that is supposed to help suppress/extinguish Lithium Ion batteries - Lithex is one such product.
I suspect London Fire Brigade have had more incidents involving battery powered stuff than the rest of the country, some of which were scooters/bikes in flats. I suspect that this is reinforcing their cautious advice.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Interesting stuff Chris!The EV is a more difficult prospect in some ways due to position in the vehicle - usually underneath/body & chassis built around them. When a sealed battery compartment is added to the mix (IP67 rated usually) it makes things awkward. A lot of EV manufacturers recommend leaving them to burn out (bit difficult if it's on a ferry or in an underground car park!). Formula e have a process which includes a quarantine area for a vehicle with a problem and (ultimately) a way to submerge the whole car (probably the most effective, if not drastic). Belgium have adopted the 'submerge approach' and have equipped themselves with this:-
There are a few propriety extinguishers around with an active additive that is supposed to help suppress/extinguish Lithium Ion batteries - Lithex is one such product.
I suspect London Fire Brigade have had more incidents involving battery powered stuff than the rest of the country, some of which were scooters/bikes in flats. I suspect that this is reinforcing their cautious advice.
I’ve seen the Belgian solution on YouTube somewhere, my mate who trains marshalls at the Motor Sport Association has looked at them as well for the electric motorsport classes that are coming.
Really interesting issue, especially when you consider these types of fire below residential property. LFRS seem to be very proactive here.
Surely will be flagged when you (can’t) book.
In Norway, electric vehicles accounted for 79% of new passenger car registrations in 2022, what are they gonna not allow them on ferries?
there's loads of ferries in Norway
But that is partially because the equipment fire fighters have, has been designed tonight ICE fires?
I mean, fire extinguishers are coded for different fires. We just need to upgrade the equipment, including possibly some that need to be developed.
So, I would say they are more difficult to extinguish at the moment. Another field in which EV need to evolve (it could be a heat-sensitive self-extinguishing system installed around the battery, for example).
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Not really - see my earlier post.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I did. As I said, the current response is what it is and I am not disputing it, nor your expertise.
I am however convinced that 10 years from now our response will be very different and it will not be the challenge it is today.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Of course.
Some of the current issues/difficulties is around the battery construction in EV's - they are multi cell in layers/rows which makes it very difficult to get any extinguishing media where it needs to be. The problem of thermal runaway is pretty independent of an extinguishing media - once it starts it just escalates (hence the submersion comment). It can take 2-3 times a much water to deal with an EV than an ICE fire.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
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