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Thread: UK Electric Power Generation Mix

  1. #1

    UK Electric Power Generation Mix

    Given this is a hot topic at the moment given domestic prices and risk of winter blackouts, I thought this link would be interesting.

    https://grid.iamkate.com

    It is a still day today, so you can see there is barely any wind power and we are relying on fossil fuels for the bulk of our power. Hence, natural gas prices have shot up.

    Renewables were producing over 40% of the power when the wind was blowing last week.

  2. #2
    They are drip feeding news as to the possibility of shortages in the near future. This is a result of long underinvestment and political dithering. Quite shameful really, but I suspect some pragmatic solutions exist.

  3. #3

    UK Electric Power Generation Mix

    Today illustrates why nuclear power is so important going forward.

    On a still day like today we are heavily reliant on fossil fuels.

    Unless you replace fossil fuels with a source of power that doesn’t generate massive quantities of CO2, and can turn on and off (dispatch) to reflect the wind conditions, then the UK will not meet its climate objectives.

    Nuclear is perfect for dispatching power when renewables are not available. Carbon capture is another alternative.

    Beyond that, options are limited.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Today illustrates why nuclear power is so important going forward.

    On a still day like today we are heavily reliant on fossil fuels.

    Unless you replace fossil fuels with a source of power that doesn’t generate massive quantities of CO2, and can turn on and off (dispatch) to reflect the wind conditions, then the UK will not meet its climate objectives.

    Nuclear is perfect for dispatching power when renewables are not available. Carbon capture is another alternative.

    Beyond that, options are limited.
    How does carbon capture generate power?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    How does carbon capture generate power?
    Sorry, to clarify, it sits on the exhaust of a gas/coal fired power station and captures and sequestrates the CO2. Emissions to atmosphere is then primarily nitrogen.

    So, you still burn the fossil fuels, but CO2 is not released to atmosphere helping the UK to meet its climate objectives and power requirements.

  6. #6
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Today illustrates why nuclear power is so important going forward.

    On a still day like today we are heavily reliant on fossil fuels.

    Unless you replace fossil fuels with a source of power that doesn’t generate massive quantities of CO2, and can turn on and off (dispatch) to reflect the wind conditions, then the UK will not meet its climate objectives.

    Nuclear is perfect for dispatching power when renewables are not available. Carbon capture is another alternative.

    Beyond that, options are limited.
    Tidal/Wave power and Solar could be added to the mix. They always produce

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Sorry, to clarify, it sits on the exhaust of a gas/coal fired power station and captures and sequestrates the CO2. Emissions to atmosphere is then primarily nitrogen.

    So, you still burn the fossil fuels, but CO2 is not released to atmosphere helping the UK to meet its climate objectives and power requirements.
    Ccs has a huge parasitic load. Last I checked Peterhead ocgt was 1 of the only plants (trialed) with the scrubbers and it lost hundreds of mw with the CCS on.

    There has never been a nuclear plant built on time or to budget anywhere.

    Neither help in the short to medium terms.

    National grid removed the threat of blackouts on the DFS scheme yesterday I believe. Interconnector with France usually takes the strain but lots of edf's (french govt's) nukes are offline.

    I agree with your sentiment, and the problem is real. But the energy trilemma is only becoming more problematic.

    Tidal and wave is tiny. The emec is only running the orbital 2mw turbine currently. Great proof of concept and commercialisation but I don't think orkeny is grid connected...

    Lastly, the gas market is a fair bit more complicated than spot. There are specific hedging strategies deployed by the generators and their integrated supply cos entering into options and derivatives to lock in prices based on market sentiment many months and years into the future.

    The spot market in effect punishes the imbalanced, if a generator is buying gas spot nbp today in quantity they've done something wrong. Worse still, if they don't balance they get the punitive system balance price.
    Last edited by farquare; 29th November 2022 at 14:24.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonaco View Post
    … Solar could be added to the mix. They always produce
    Would be interesting to know how many hours a year and what level of sensitivity modern panels have. It’s dark for more than 12 hours a day at the moment and precious little clear sky and sun in the last few weeks.

  9. #9
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    We need some grid scale storage for the wind and solar we generate, to flatten the peaks and troughs.

    No idea what is out there already that can do it, but we could do worse than start making green hydrogen with excess electricity (like when it’s windy overnight) and either storing that or using it in suitable applications.

    It’s all technically doable I’m sure, it’s whether it’s politically achievable.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by farquare View Post
    Ccs has a huge parasitic load. Last I checked Peterhead ocgt was 1 of the only plants (trialed) with the scrubbers and it lost hundreds of mw with the CCS on.

    There has never been a nuclear plant built on time or to budget anywhere.

    Neither help in the short to medium terms.
    Yes, CCS has a significant parasitic load, firstly the steam to operate the capture plant and secondly the power to drive the CO2 compression. Nothing comes for free.

    This parasitic load should only be several percentage points of the electricity generated though.

    Whereas nuclear may take 10-15 plus years, at least CCS has the ability to plug a gap in the early-medium term as 5 year project timescales are realistic. Plus CCS can be retrofitted to the back end of an existing power plants.

    Beyond nuclear and CCS, there is not a lot of other meaningful technology to bridge the gap when there wind stops blowing.

    Battery technology is touted, but has no chance. If you wanted to back up the UK 40 GW (40,000,000 kW) grid for one hour, it would take the equivalent of 667,000 Tesla cars fitted with 60kWh batteries. And that is just for one hour!

    Things will get interesting when things get very cold this winter AND if large higher pressure sits over Europe for a month without any wind blowing. Get the candles ready.

    Clean electricity is going to stay expensive, and pose a significant challenge for a long time to come.

  11. #11
    Craftsman
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    I was out walking the dog at 8 this morning. I can see Black Law wind farm from the park where I take the dog.
    Out of the 80 odd turbines there were 4 that I could see turning, these 4 were scattered around the farm, not as if they were all in the one spot and had caught a bit of wind, so if they were turning why weren’t the others. Smaller one that seemed to come from a farm was fair spinning, so not as if there wasn’t wind.

  12. #12
    Agree on nuclear being the major viable option… sadly it wasn’t “flavour of the month” years back when they needed to invest and build…. Just import from France was the answer… until it’s not.

    Spinning reserve required for intermittent “green” generation probably almost negates the cleanliness factor.
    Could still use gas fired quick reacting stuff for peak lopping.

    Lifecycle and carbon payback for wind turbines is still a bit of a mystery to me….

    Tidal would be good, runs like clockwork, although need the storage capability too and battery manufacturer isn’t clean by any stretch.

    Turn off what you don’t need on!

  13. #13
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post

    Battery technology is touted, but has no chance. If you wanted to back up the UK 40 GW (40,000,000 kW) grid for one hour, it would take the equivalent of 667,000 Tesla cars fitted with 60kWh batteries. And that is just for one hour!
    This is where Vehicle to Grid (V2G) might have a role to play in the future, albeit it’s a long way off.

    10m electric cars shuffling some power back to the grid would be a meaningful contribution at peak times.

    Individual house batteries would also help, if a home is using its own 10-15kWh battery that was charged using off peak surplus electricity, wind or solar, then it won’t need to draw from the grid for a large part of the day/evening.

    A mix of generation is the way forward, all our energy eggs in one basket is one of the reasons we’re here depending on gas and paying through the nose for it.

  14. #14

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