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Thread: Opinions on junior doctors striking

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by P9CLY View Post
    Due to covid ive not yet got an appointment at my Dentist in Shipley.
    But maybe just before covid I went for a filling.Parking the car I noticed 2 BMWs,very nice ones,they stood out lets say,and a Masserati.I joked when I went to the receptionist and said there are some well heeled patients in here(I knew they belonged to the Dentists).She laughed knowingly.
    No money in that either hey.
    There is loads of money in dentistry. Because it is basically privatised in the UK.

    If the government doesn't start paying what doctors are worth the NHS will go the same way. Financially I will be much better off and probably happier. The patient and taxpayer will be much worse off (unless you are pretty rich).

    I would much rather they just restore our pay to 2008 levels and retain the talent in the NHS.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Not rubbing it in, just as a comparison. You will have done a 5 year degree plus some qualifying time (registrar etc) and get a £43k salary.

    In the team I lead at work a standard account manager selling into advertising agencies or programmatic platforms(no degree requirement, age probably 28-30 so maybe 5 years sales experience) will be on 2.5 times that salary and I'd bet your job is far harder to qualify for and is far more impactful on society.

    I'm not a fan of the RM strikes but in the case of the Junior Doctors (and the nurses too) absolutely the pay needs to be addressed.
    I hoped during COVID that **** job titles like this, footballers, etc would be realised for what they are and proper jobs like docs, nurses, builders, basically key workers would be realised. Obviously didn't happen.
    I also do not understand how someone on 43k a year is struggling to pay the bills. We have never been on anything near that figure but still manage. Heating on for.max 2hours a day, buy cheaper food, no subscriptions you don't need, find the cheapest garage selling fuel, shop around for anything we need. Buy second hand clothes, presents etc ...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprite1275 View Post
    I hoped during COVID that **** job titles like this, footballers, etc would be realised for what they are and proper jobs like docs, nurses, builders, basically key workers would be realised. Obviously didn't happen.
    I also do not understand how someone on 43k a year is struggling to pay the bills. We have never been on anything near that figure but still manage. Heating on for.max 2hours a day, buy cheaper food, no subscriptions you don't need, find the cheapest garage selling fuel, shop around for anything we need. Buy second hand clothes, presents etc ...
    Just had our first born and wife on rubbish maternity pay. Mortgage just gone up by 100s a month, bills up, food bills up. Month to month is ok but when the car needs a big service or I have to pay £640 in one go for the pleasure of sitting exams I have no choice but to sit... We have no subscriptions, shop at Aldi, heat the house enough to keep the baby warm enough to, you know, survive.

  4. #54
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    Back to the part that you do not want to separate you daughter from her grandparents.

    We raised two boys and my wife's parents lived 10 hrs (later 6 hrs) flying away from us. It never was a problem for all. Great Britain is a big country. I see that you're a Devonian. Let's say you were offered a job in John O'Groats and they will pay you a US salary. What would you do?

    You also write that you're struggling to pay the bills. And with a 43K salary, I can imagine that you're right! Did you tell your parents/in laws that you're struggling but that you're staying because of family reasons?

  5. #55
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    £43k not high enough given the job, I agree. Vets, an even tougher qualification, have an even more dismal salary (my eldest is one). Whereas dentists start on more than you're getting now (my youngest is training) - go figure.

    As to a 30% real cut in salary, this will be pretty standard for many at the moment.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Back to the part that you do not want to separate you daughter from her grandparents.

    We raised two boys and my wife's parents lived 10 hrs (later 6 hrs) flying away from us. It never was a problem for all. Great Britain is a big country. Let's say you were offered a job in the tip of Cornwall or John O'Groats and they will pay you a US salary. What would you do?

    You also write that you're struggling to pay the bills. And with a 43K salary, I can imagine that you're right! Did you tell your parents/in laws that you're struggling but that you're staying because of family reasons?
    There is a lot more involved in moving to the US for example. Less hard to move to the Antipodes. I am probably going to be forced to take my skills elsewhere if they don't sort our pay out though.

    My parents know we are struggling, unfortunately, unlike a fair few doctors I do not have money in my family. I am the first generation to go to uni. My parents help with buying clothes for the baby bless them but they can't do much more. Not what they envisaged when their son became a doctor!

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    I have done this sort of thread a couple of times in the past as I feel this forum is quite an interesting place to gauge a bit of public opinion.

    You may or may not be aware that the BMA is balloting us junior doctors on strike action in January. The only way I can see a strike not happening is if not enough people join the BMA to vote in the ballot, certainly the general consensus among my colleagues is that we strike. I am interested in people's opinions on this.

    Junior doctor pay has dropped in real terms by around 30% since 2008. All the while the job has become more and more shit. We were clapped a couple of years ago but when it comes down to nickels and dimes the government doesn't want to pay us properly. My colleagues are leaving for the antipodes in droves over pay and conditions, more and more are following suit. My opinion is that if this country wants to keep its own medical talent we need to pay it an equivalent amount to other healthcare systems which are happily hoovering up our talent, while the NHS then plunders Nigeria and India for doctors, it's a ridiculous situation.

    I feel people often don't have a good grasp of what a doctor earns as the daily mail will tell you we are all on £250k.

    Also, to be clear, a junior doctor is any doctor that is not a consultant or fully qualified GP. If you ever have to go to hospital, most of the doctors you will meet will be junior doctors.

    I have been a fully qualified doctor since 2015. This year my salary is £43000 which includes a small uplift for evening and weekend work. Out of that salary I have to pay £640 for exams and £425 to the GMC to be allowed to do my job. I have to pay £2.50 a day to park at the place I work. I can, at the drop of hat be moved to a hospital up to 80 miles away from where I work which would leave me even more out of pocket.

    I am not looking for sympathy just wanting people to know what the reality of a doctors salary is when we inevitably strike next year.

    I realise that £43k is above the average wage in the UK but I don't think I am being big headed when I say my job entails far more skill, training, direct risk and decision making than 99% of other jobs...

    Once again, not looking to get support or sympathy, I know I could leave at any point and earn more in a corporate job (believe me I am close). I just want to gauge opinion and educate.
    Interesting, I honestly have no idea about pay outside of my sector but I really thought you would be getting around the £60K mark for a junior doctor, but then again what do I know...

    I will say its a shame about having to strike but when you see the sh-t this government has gotten or given away to cronies and themselves and all the while we're been told to suck it up then I have to say go for it...

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    As to a 30% real cut in salary, this will be pretty standard for many at the moment.
    Actually no, 30% is a lot worse than most other jobs, including other jobs in the NHS. It was actually 30% before this current inflationary hike, so will be worse now.

  9. #59
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    I had no idea a qualified junior doctor salary was so low. Recently spent quite a bit of time in a hospital and saw first hand how hard doctors and nurses work. Fully support them. There really should be some levelling up in our society.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    It is a disgrace that any doctor earns £43k. You'd be better off moving to the US or Canada where you can get paid properly.
    Some doctors care about the NHS and aren’t in it just for remuneration. Good suggestion though.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    Some doctors care about the NHS and aren’t in it just for remuneration. Good suggestion though.
    To be honest I think as a profession we need to move away from this. Calling it a vocation and being asked to work 100 hour weeks "for the patient" was all good and well when doctors were well paid, given free accommodation amongst other perks.

    It's a job. We need renumeration. Especially after the shit we have been through over the last few years. I used to care about the NHS, but there is only so much a person can take.

    This is why I hated the whole "key worker hero" thing during covid. Firstly, it was clear that the people shouting it the most were the ones least likely to actually want to pay HCPs more (especially if it was their tax!). Secondly, there is the idea that Heroes don't need a good salary and working conditions. Screw heroes, we are normal people and want fair pay for our skills!

  12. #62
    I always assumed DR got paid way more than your salary, the few I have know in my life all has huge houses and fancy cars.

    I don’t particularly like the NHS, spent a lot of time recently in hospital - daughter hernia op - I ended up walking out after with her after we sat for around 5 hours after the surgery with no one checking in on her or anything, it was getting late, around 9pm and she’s 7 and was exhausted so just got up and left. I did go try find some nurses on a few occasions mostly they were huddled around a desk (about 6-7 of them) but none showed much interest. We called a few weeks ago to ask if she would get a follow up appointment or anything as we have not heard anything, OP was around 3 months ago.

    mum had a cancer op that initially went well than she got given food way too early which tore her internal stitches and she got an infection, 1 month on a ventilator and another month recovering in HDU, touch and go for a bit, luckily she is now home. Hit and miss with the DR and nurses, some good, some terrible. Generally on the HDU it was a better experience, the times she was on a general ward it was terrible, just before she was sedated she was in loads of pain and not given much attention.

    Neither of the two experiences left me with much joy for the NHS.


    Sorry OP got a bit sidetracked. But I would agree striking makes sense to try a fair pay.


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  13. #63
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    Sorry you had a crap experience. Unfortunately I don't think it is unusual. The system is failing.

    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    I always assumed DR got paid way more than your salary, the few I have know in my life all has huge houses and fancy cars.

    I don’t particularly like the NHS, spent a lot of time recently in hospital - daughter hernia op - I ended up walking out after with her after we sat for around 5 hours after the surgery with no one checking in on her or anything, it was getting late, around 9pm and she’s 7 and was exhausted so just got up and left. I did go try find some nurses on a few occasions mostly they were huddled around a desk (about 6-7 of them) but none showed much interest. We called a few weeks ago to ask if she would get a follow up appointment or anything as we have not heard anything, OP was around 3 months ago.

    mum had a cancer op that initially went well than she got given food way too early which tore her internal stitches and she got an infection, 1 month on a ventilator and another month recovering in HDU, touch and go for a bit, luckily she is now home. Hit and miss with the DR and nurses, some good, some terrible. Generally on the HDU it was a better experience, the times she was on a general ward it was terrible, just before she was sedated she was in loads of pain and not given much attention.

    Neither of the two experiences left me with much joy for the NHS.


    Sorry OP got a bit sidetracked. But I would agree striking makes sense to try a fair pay.


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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    There is a lot more involved in moving to the US for example. Less hard to move to the Antipodes. I am probably going to be forced to take my skills elsewhere if they don't sort our pay out though.

    My parents know we are struggling, unfortunately, unlike a fair few doctors I do not have money in my family. I am the first generation to go to uni. My parents help with buying clothes for the baby bless them but they can't do much more. Not what they envisaged when their son became a doctor!
    It's not normal that someone, after so many years of hard work and a relevant study should be knocking on the door for help. NHS is not going to help you (otherwise, a strike wouldn't be on the horizon). What do your parents think when you suggest going to NZ or AUS? Although, since Covid, those countries are not the promised land anymore. A mate's brother is psychiatrist in NZ and his list of new patients has grown 300%(!) since Covid.

    My wife went to Harvard and there, during Commencement Day in May, so-called 'First Gens' students were put in the spotlights! Even more than the others who made it to the Harvard finish! There, it's regarded as a '+' on your CV!

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    To be honest I think as a profession we need to move away from this. Calling it a vocation and being asked to work 100 hour weeks "for the patient" was all good and well when doctors were well paid, given free accommodation amongst other perks.

    It's a job. We need renumeration. Especially after the shit we have been through over the last few years. I used to care about the NHS, but there is only so much a person can take.

    This is why I hated the whole "key worker hero" thing during covid. Firstly, it was clear that the people shouting it the most were the ones least likely to actually want to pay HCPs more (especially if it was their tax!). Secondly, there is the idea that Heroes don't need a good salary and working conditions. Screw heroes, we are normal people and want fair pay for our skills!
    Couldn’t agree more, the only reason the NHS functions at all is because it takes advantage of the goodwill of its staff. I don’t think a whole country should rely on the goodwill of a few people to perform such an essential service; not to mention have the audacity to moan about it when waiting times are long in A&E or you can’t get a GP appointment.

    The Doctors I know are bright people. Bright people who could have gone into any profession they desired and would have been paid much more.


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  16. #66
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    The people we really need, on whom we, our children and elderly parents depend on are paid a salary nothing short of disgraceful.

    Care workers, nurses, doctors, paramedics, teachers, mental health teams, SENs, The Fire Service, The Police, the Forces - pathetically low starting salaries given the requirements and conditions, and the imposition on life and well-being. Vocation isn't justification when MPs consistently give themselves above inflation pay rises, don't switch off the heating in Portcullis House and eat (too) well in the HoP restaurants. Amazing how far 30p a meal goes!

    And then look at city bonuses, shareholder dividends, lawyers hourly rates and their cars parked outside their offices. None will be remembered when they dead and buried, unless it's the divorce lawyers! And judging by the shitty work a lot of them have done and I've had to correct, they should be on minimum wage.

    So yes, they should go on strike. For 50 years we've been plagued by strikes which don't always strike a sympathetic cord with the public, and can really screw up the public's lives. The usual mantra of "wages not keeping up with inflation in real terms" is a lost cause. 95% of us are in that boat, and don't have a union. Sorry Mick L, I can't be sympathetic for those who earn approx 65k a year, in a well-supported, protected and more job for life than the rest of us. it's not hard and you don't train for years, or rack up a mountain of debt to do it.

    Try telling your point to a squaddie in Helmand on 21k and see what he thinks, or a RN in a COVID ward on 30k. Average house price in Hull £123,372, flats in eastern central near London hospitals £796,269.

    The system is shot whomever you vote for or think should strike. It needs, basically, a national strike and then salaries paid according to social value, and risk eg Police and HMF.

    But student debt and low salary impact on recruitment is the killer. So here's my proposal:

    1. All the careers already mentioned/key workers, who need a degree or some form of long and expensive training, receive it for free. The HMF have a limited similar version.
    2. The condition is that X number of years must be served otherwise the tuition costs etc must be paid back, contractually.
    3. It will attract thousands who would not have considered the careers because of either the student debt and/or the salary. and we may eventually get back to pre-Brexit numbers.



    • Paying for it is not contentious, it's essential.
    • Modify non-dom rates before scrapping them to avoid a brain drain.
    • Remove charitable status of private schools - about 3 Billion a year. And it's worth reading how grandparents can set up companies to avoid or limit tax on school fees - it's tantamount to fraud and I don't recall local state schools getting any benefit from the continually expanding opulence of the local public schools.
    • Ditch vanity projects like HS2 and divert the remaining money where it's needed.
    • Reduce corporation tax for businesses setting up and employing local people in currently low employment areas. These feed back into the front line service budgets. And if it means 2p more in tax, so do it.

    Everything is collapsing faster than it's being repaired or replaced. If we want a great functioning country if costs just a little more. We get the best people and the best services. The option is to say sod it no, go private and end up paying a damn sight more. it works so well elsewhere for just a little bit more. Why wouldn't we want that? Oh yes, magic trees.

  17. #67
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    The simple reality, fair or not, is that jobs that people want to do tend to pay poorly. If it's seen as an exciting career, odds are it pays crap because they don't need ££ to entice you into the job. If it's sitting in an office moving spreadsheets around, odds are it pays alright.

    Not saying it's fair, but it's also not really a surprise is it? Nothing to stop you going for a higher paying job and leaving the medical gig behind you. But if you don't do that because you really want to do medical work, then perhaps consider that this is part of the reward equation.

  18. #68
    As a profession in the UK, medicine has the highest impact on earnings when graduates reach 29, and over a career lifetime. In general, doctors do fine.

  19. #69
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    Its is poor,the pay for the job, but for us all will we vote for a government who will fund stuff properly? How much do you want to pay for good public services? Set aside in you mind all the other garbage and waste.

    If you want to earn the big bucks in the US, do one and pay your education over there its only fair.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by P9CLY View Post
    Wrong place actually.....but now in the correct place.

    This re doctors in surgeries.

    Get your backsides back into the surgery and not work in your home.Covid did that,has anyone informed you its no longer the covid we started out with.
    And you earn a hell of a lot more than many.
    From my Doctor its.

    See how it goes,take these for 2 weeks and come back if same!.
    Oh and send a pic....which I have to do for a skin issue.

    Yes there is a bug going around!.
    Treat patients as you would a Rich,well known celeb or Royalty walking into your surgery.

    Took the Wife for her camera check,The Doctors records werent the same as the text on her phone,took 30 mins to get there,took literally 2 mins to say sorry not on my records.Good job she is retired and I was off work hey.
    And in my Doctors surgery on the monitor.

    "Please dont waste the Doctors time,keep your appointment or cancel,or you may be fined".

    So will my Wifes Doctor be fined,or my Wife paid for our inconvenience.......NO.

    Just my gripes about Doctors.I can see big problems because people didnt get more 1 on 1 time f2f....our Friend died recently,ill not go into all the details here,but she didnt get the time with Doctors when pre covid She would have.

    Nothing personal & Im all for strikes for rights and pay.
    I’ll just leave this here - https://www.gponline.com/gp-wife-wor...rticle/1802504

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    pay your education over there its only fair.
    With the shambles of the UCAS system and the sheer lack of places available to study medicine - how can that be when we're desperately short - studying overseas is sometimes the only option.

    And one of Brexit's greatest wins, are the fees. No longer does a parent have to leap through the hoops of schemes like Erasmus, hoping to get financial help. No student loans, as they're only for UK courses.

    We've taken back control. The parent now has to pay cash. Up front. Tuition that was about 1k a year in the NL is now 15k. So if you can't get a place on a course in the UK, and your parents can't find or borrow the money, you have very few options. Then add food and accommodation, (accommodation situation is horrendous in comparison to the UK), and you have an option which isn't one, but so used to be.

    How exactly do we fill the essential slots or develop this "great pool of British talent" if Uni or Colleges are unviable?

    Brexit has given us a gun to shoot ourselves in the foot with. In fact both feet. Best joint the waiting list for the necessary surgery and rehab that now runs into years.

    The British view to its key workers is an enigma here in Switzerland. They all play a key role, and the respect they are given here, a proper salary and even the customary "Bonjour" is just socially ingrained.

    Until politicians stop behaving like pissed Freshers and someone with an atom of sense looks at the books, kicks out the spin doctors and treats everyone like they belong to a union and will be treated and paid fairly, there is no solution, nor hope. Just a failed state. And as an Olympic event, we'll be in the final for sure.


    Personally I'd put Eddie in No 10. He's got a grip on R&D, supply and demand, quality British products, exports, international negotiation, accolades from the media, and northern wit. That's more than the Cabinet combined!

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprite1275 View Post
    I hoped during COVID that **** job titles like this, footballers, etc would be realised for what they are and proper jobs like docs, nurses, builders, basically key workers would be realised. Obviously didn't happen.
    I also do not understand how someone on 43k a year is struggling to pay the bills. We have never been on anything near that figure but still manage. Heating on for.max 2hours a day, buy cheaper food, no subscriptions you don't need, find the cheapest garage selling fuel, shop around for anything we need. Buy second hand clothes, presents etc ...
    Where do you live, as a matter of interest?

    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    Some doctors care about the NHS and aren’t in it just for remuneration.
    That's exactly the kind of attitude that serves to normalise this horrendous situation.

  23. #73
    I am a consultant surgeon in the Uk
    I support the junior doctors' plans to strike and I will go back to the wards to do their work when they are off.
    Average debt for a newly qualified doctor is £90,000 now I hear if they had no parent money.

    Its a rewarding job but equally a little of a martyr's honour.

  24. #74
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    Junior Doctors on Strike

    I'm a hospital consultant and I fully support this as unless the NHS renumerates all staff appropriately, it will continue to haemorrhage staff to other countries and other sectors. It's always in the news about how many foreign doctors there are in the UK but one of the things that is not reported on enough is the number of local doctors leaving the NHS for other countries, mainly OZ/NZ. There are 2 points when junior doctors leave, either soon after graduating and completing Foundation training or after specialist training. We've just had another trainee who had finished specialist training in the UK, accept a job with us before going to NZ to do a fellowship for a year and realising how much better things were over there in both pay and lifestyle and then apologise to us that they have to turn down the job as they are not coming back. His wife who just finished her gastroenterology training also got a job there as a consultant. The year before the pandemic, half our FY2s were leaving for OZ after completing their Foundation training. From what I last heard 4 out of the 8 who went across have decided to stay there permanently. To give you an idea, my colleague who I share an office with explained how she earned £150k as a fellow in NZ. Every on call and call out is chargeable. So working in a smaller unit, which is where most UK trainees will go to, you work hard but get paid for it. So yes, a stand has to be made. It's unfortunate that this is the time to do it but in better times, they were still offering below inflation pay rises. As for GP surgeries, I think there is a huge variation in practice but I can tell you as a husband married to one who has quit and now only doing locum work, that you could not pay me enough to do that job. Everything is broken. The pressure is too intense and will only get worse for those remaining in it and they will leave as it is unsustainable. The lack of long term planning/ short termism and underfunding by the government has crushed the health service. Healthcare costs have been going up, the cost of some drugs are unbelievably high, PFIs drain resources from smaller health boards, chronic illness in an aging population, the mental health crises to name just a few issues. Brexit and the pandemic has caused an acute staff shortage where we have had theatres lie empty because of this. Staff morale is rock bottom and secretarial staff are leaving in droves as the abuse the get from patients on the phone is unacceptable but to a certain degree, understandable. Personally , I've never been so stressed and under pressure in my career and I'm really a chilled guy. It's fighting fire all day and everyday at the moment. The NHS is really at a critical stage some grown up talk needs to be had. No quick fixes but retaining the staff that you have must surely be the number one priority at the moment.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytyc View Post
    I'm a hospital consultant and I fully support this as unless the NHS renumerates all staff appropriately, it will continue to haemorrhage staff to other countries and other sectors. It's always in the news about how many foreign doctors there are in the UK but one of the things that is not reported on enough is the number of local doctors leaving the NHS for other countries, mainly OZ/NZ. There are 2 points when junior doctors leave, either soon after graduating and completing Foundation training or after specialist training. We've just had another trainee who had finished specialist training in the UK, accept a job with us before going to NZ to do a fellowship for a year and realising how much better things were over there in both pay and lifestyle and then apologise to us that they have to turn down the job as they are not coming back. His wife who just finished her gastroenterology training also got a job there as a consultant. The year before the pandemic, half our FY2s were leaving for OZ after completing their Foundation training. From what I last heard 4 out of the 8 who went across have decided to stay there permanently. To give you an idea, my colleague who I share an office with explained how she earned £150k as a fellow in NZ. Every on call and call out is chargeable. So working in a smaller unit, which is where most UK trainees will go to, you work hard but get paid for it. So yes, a stand has to be made. It's unfortunate that this is the time to do it but in better times, they were still offering below inflation pay rises. As for GP surgeries, I think there is a huge variation in practice but I can tell you as a husband married to one who has quit and now only doing locum work, that you could not pay me enough to do that job. Everything is broken. The pressure is too intense and will only get worse for those remaining in it and they will leave as it is unsustainable. The lack of long term planning/ short termism and underfunding by the government has crushed the health service. Healthcare costs have been going up, the cost of some drugs are unbelievably high, PFIs drain resources from smaller health boards, chronic illness in an aging population, the mental health crises to name just a few issues. Brexit and the pandemic has caused an acute staff shortage where we have had theatres lie empty because of this. Staff morale is rock bottom and secretarial staff are leaving in droves as the abuse the get from patients on the phone is unacceptable but to a certain degree, understandable. Personally , I've never been so stressed and under pressure in my career and I'm really a chilled guy. It's fighting fire all day and everyday at the moment. The NHS is really at a critical stage some grown up talk needs to be had. No quick fixes but retaining the staff that you have must surely be the number one priority at the moment.
    What an awful picture you've painted, but thanks for doing so.

    My fear is that we're beyond the tipping point, and that the present situation will somehow enable the Tories to realise what I believe the've wanted for at least the last decade (privatisation, obviously).

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    Just had our first born and wife on rubbish maternity pay. Mortgage just gone up by 100s a month, bills up, food bills up. Month to month is ok but when the car needs a big service or I have to pay £640 in one go for the pleasure of sitting exams I have no choice but to sit... We have no subscriptions, shop at Aldi, heat the house enough to keep the baby warm enough to, you know, survive.
    It's not right that you should have to live like this, doing the job you do, all the years of study and training. In fact watching the cost of living crisis unfold somewhat from the sidelines it strikes me that for a great many folks the UK's essentially only becoming less and less a liveable, enjoyable proposition...sure folks can cut back, and cut back some more to survive but hells bells if you work hard for a living , pay your way and your taxes you deserve better than this, just surviving isn't really a sustainable mid to long term proposition...and the thing is even when the high inflation abates, which it eventually will, I don't see prices, the cost of living returning to pre covid levels, it's unlikely the tide will rush back in raising everyone's boat imho. We seem to have created a bifurcated society, there's the rich or at least doing OK, basically anyone near to or on 6 figures and upwards and then everyone else below that who depending on circumstances may well be struggling to a greater or lesser extent. I think the era of cheap or free money disguised reality, enabled a lot of folks to live larger...that's over as well now.
    Last edited by Passenger; 27th November 2022 at 10:29.

  27. #77
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    Doctors and nurses will vote with their feet - as Brexit cleraly showed us - for those from less affluent countries were our scores of vital medical support, from abroad, all keeping the NHS afloat. And who can blame them?

    And now we have a massive surge in people receiving treatment abroad that they cannot get for years in the UK, but can in weeks elsewhere, and affordably. And I don't mean cosmetic surgery.

    The case studies are all there. I am mystified by the systematic stupidity. Either accept the status of failed state, or bloody well answer the questions you're asked, fix it, or get out of government. A broken clock is right more often than this shower.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    The rest of the world is functioning pretty well - maybe you need to move?
    It doesn't appear that way Chris not if the posts from others in the system are to be given credence. What I hear from my elderly folks also supports the view it isn't functioning pretty well, likewise what I see and read in the media.

  29. #79
    just another addition to the long list of people who are not getting paid enough for what they do ,everyone who thinks they are not earning enough has the same choice - either change jobs or suck it up because its not going to get any better.
    ... welcome to great britain 2022

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugster View Post
    just another addition to the long list of people who are not getting paid enough for what they do ,everyone who thinks they are not earning enough has the same choice - either change jobs or suck it up because its not going to get any better.
    ... welcome to great britain 2022
    As Paul Johnson Director of the the IFS said, ''people just got a whole lot poorer.''

  31. #81
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    This is all the truth.

    The problem is that there won't be a spectacular collapse of the NHS. It will be an insidious process. It will keep getting worse and worse, people will slowly get private healthcare where they can and we will have a horrible two tiered health system for the haves and have nots.

    All of which is completely avoidable if you just fund the bloody healthcare system properly.

    The general public (on less than 100k per year) are engineering there own demise if you ask me by voting for things like Brexit and the Tories. We are turning into a crappy version of the US (with all the bad bits and less of the wealth) when we should be aiming to emulate Denmark.

    Ultimately, the UK will completely deserve the shit little country we will all live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by andytyc View Post
    I'm a hospital consultant and I fully support this as unless the NHS renumerates all staff appropriately, it will continue to haemorrhage staff to other countries and other sectors. It's always in the news about how many foreign doctors there are in the UK but one of the things that is not reported on enough is the number of local doctors leaving the NHS for other countries, mainly OZ/NZ. There are 2 points when junior doctors leave, either soon after graduating and completing Foundation training or after specialist training. We've just had another trainee who had finished specialist training in the UK, accept a job with us before going to NZ to do a fellowship for a year and realising how much better things were over there in both pay and lifestyle and then apologise to us that they have to turn down the job as they are not coming back. His wife who just finished her gastroenterology training also got a job there as a consultant. The year before the pandemic, half our FY2s were leaving for OZ after completing their Foundation training. From what I last heard 4 out of the 8 who went across have decided to stay there permanently. To give you an idea, my colleague who I share an office with explained how she earned £150k as a fellow in NZ. Every on call and call out is chargeable. So working in a smaller unit, which is where most UK trainees will go to, you work hard but get paid for it. So yes, a stand has to be made. It's unfortunate that this is the time to do it but in better times, they were still offering below inflation pay rises. As for GP surgeries, I think there is a huge variation in practice but I can tell you as a husband married to one who has quit and now only doing locum work, that you could not pay me enough to do that job. Everything is broken. The pressure is too intense and will only get worse for those remaining in it and they will leave as it is unsustainable. The lack of long term planning/ short termism and underfunding by the government has crushed the health service. Healthcare costs have been going up, the cost of some drugs are unbelievably high, PFIs drain resources from smaller health boards, chronic illness in an aging population, the mental health crises to name just a few issues. Brexit and the pandemic has caused an acute staff shortage where we have had theatres lie empty because of this. Staff morale is rock bottom and secretarial staff are leaving in droves as the abuse the get from patients on the phone is unacceptable but to a certain degree, understandable. Personally , I've never been so stressed and under pressure in my career and I'm really a chilled guy. It's fighting fire all day and everyday at the moment. The NHS is really at a critical stage some grown up talk needs to be had. No quick fixes but retaining the staff that you have must surely be the number one priority at the moment.
    Last edited by watchstudent; 27th November 2022 at 11:00.

  32. #82
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    That's my fear too, that we become a crappier version of the USA, trust me the 'good' version of it really ain't all that, not unless unlimited personal firepower really tickles your pickle, and/or you've got serious income, or deep family wealth...otherwise you're just more in thrall to your employer, 'the man', because your health care is tied to your job.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    To be honest I think as a profession we need to move away from this. Calling it a vocation and being asked to work 100 hour weeks "for the patient" was all good and well when doctors were well paid, given free accommodation amongst other perks.

    It's a job. We need renumeration. Especially after the shit we have been through over the last few years. I used to care about the NHS, but there is only so much a person can take.

    This is why I hated the whole "key worker hero" thing during covid. Firstly, it was clear that the people shouting it the most were the ones least likely to actually want to pay HCPs more (especially if it was their tax!). Secondly, there is the idea that Heroes don't need a good salary and working conditions. Screw heroes, we are normal people and want fair pay for our skills!
    I do wonder how many of those clapping for the NHS are now complaining about strikes! I thought the clapping was hypocritical at the time and still do! Good will or love of the job doesn’t pay the bills! I say this as a public servant of 24 years.

  34. #84
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    Absolutely time to make a stand

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    I do wonder how many of those clapping for the NHS are now complaining about strikes! I thought the clapping was hypocritical at the time and still do! Good will or love of the job doesn’t pay the bills! I say this as a public servant of 24 years.
    Honestly, it annoyed the shit out of most of people that were being clapped. They are the exact same people who abuse GP reception staff and try to bully their way to the front of the queue in ED.

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by watchstudent View Post
    Honestly, it annoyed the shit out of most of people that were being clapped. They are the exact same people who abuse GP reception staff and try to bully their way to the front of the queue in ED.
    Indeed! Pure virtue signaling.

  37. #87
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    Isn't the Governmental underfunding of the NHS the way in towards privatisation?

  38. #88
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    Three points:

    1. This thread should be in the Bear Pit. It was obvious the direction it would take.

    2. Should NHS staff get paid more? Absolutely and I’m sure you work hard, feel underpaid and undervalued. As do many millions of people.

    3. You mention struggling and the grand parents buying clothes for your child but your recent sales posts include a £400 pair of headphones, a few grand’s worth of hi-if gear and a baby’s cot that cost north of £1K. You’ve also asked for advice on how to buy a new Explorer, where to get your Speedmaster serviced and posted this thread:

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...do-with-%A350k

    Should you be paid more? Probably, but maybe lower your expectations for a while until the pay rises come. There is struggling and then there’s actual struggling.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    Three points:

    1. This thread should be in the Bear Pit. It was obvious the direction it would take.

    2. Should NHS staff get paid more? Absolutely and I’m sure you work hard, feel underpaid and undervalued. As do many millions of people.

    3. You mention struggling and the grand parents buying clothes for your child but your recent sales posts include a £400 pair of headphones, a few grand’s worth of hi-if gear and a baby’s cot that cost north of £1K. You’ve also asked for advice on how to buy a new Explorer, where to get your Speedmaster serviced and posted this thread:

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...do-with-%A350k

    Should you be paid more? Probably, but maybe lower your expectations for a while until the pay rises come. There is struggling and then there’s actual struggling.
    Note that I am selling these things and not affording to get my watch serviced. I am selling pretty much all the luxuries I have in order to pay bills at the moment. I used to be paid properly when I was in the military (had to leave the military unfortunately) which thankfully means we have some savings. Clearly times have been better in the past or I wouldn't even be a member on a watch forum! But yes, we are not going to starve thanks to our savings but that doesn't change the current position of our pay.
    Last edited by watchstudent; 27th November 2022 at 11:51.

  40. #90
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    You’re in in your early 30’s - £50K in savings, wife and yourself in secure jobs with pensions, combined salary of £80K and 40% equity in your house. Life may seem crap but that’s not too shabby on the grand scale of things.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    You’re in in your early 30’s - £50K in savings, wife and yourself in secure jobs with pensions, combined salary of £80K and 50% equity in your house. Life may seem crap but that’s not too shabby on the grand scale of things.
    I totally take your point. Like I said in my OP, I am not looking for sympathy. I did well when I was in the military and make no apologies for that and feel lucky I had that period in my 20s or things would be a lot bleaker for us personally. Like I say, my personal finances (due to my previous pay out side of the NHS) doesn't alter the subject of junior doctor pay in general.

  42. #92
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    That’s true and NHS staff should be paid more if their skill level and hours justify it. It was the struggling comment that got my attention.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    Three points:

    1. This thread should be in the Bear Pit. It was obvious the direction it would take.

    2. Should NHS staff get paid more? Absolutely and I’m sure you work hard, feel underpaid and undervalued. As do many millions of people.

    3. You mention struggling and the grand parents buying clothes for your child but your recent sales posts include a £400 pair of headphones, a few grand’s worth of hi-if gear and a baby’s cot that cost north of £1K. You’ve also asked for advice on how to buy a new Explorer, where to get your Speedmaster serviced and posted this thread:

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...do-with-%A350k

    Should you be paid more? Probably, but maybe lower your expectations for a while until the pay rises come. There is struggling and then there’s actual struggling.
    Poor form…

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    That’s true and NHS staff should be paid more if their skill level and hours justify it. It was the struggling comment that got my attention.
    Ok, that is fair comment. You are right there is struggling and struggling. We are struggling to break even in our current cash in/cash out situation because we don't want to rinse through our savings.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Poor form…
    Not trying to deceive. I could have gone through the ins and outs of my personal financial situation, the point I was trying to make is that current cash in/out is very tight. My savings from previous jobs in irrelevant when discussing current jr dr pay, as was the point of this thread.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Poor form…
    What’s poor about it? I’ve said NHS staff should get paid more but life is tough for everyone at the moment and unfortunately in life you have to make compromises sometimes. Struggling to get by does not mean having to skip a service on your Swiss watch.

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    Should you be paid more? Probably, but maybe lower your expectations for a while until the pay rises come. There is struggling and then there’s actual struggling.
    Nice

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    What’s poor about it? I’ve said NHS staff should get paid more but life is tough for everyone at the moment and unfortunately in life you have to make compromises sometimes. Struggling to get by does not mean having to skip a service on your Swiss watch.
    Fair comment tbf, it’ll get jumped on mind because it’s just that subject currently.
    The same argument could be said up and down the land over a varied number of occupations. Yeh they should be paid more without doubt but then again so should a lot more people.


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  49. #99
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    Ok, I shouldn't have used the word "struggling" when describing my personal situation. Sorry about that.

    We have decided to live in a way that minimises the impact on our savings because that is our future security right there. But obviously we have the luxury of choosing not to go into our savings as much as possible. BUT like I say, I am an outlier due to a previous job, it doesn't change the current situation.

    I agree, it was a poor choice of words.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by benny.c View Post
    You’re in in your early 30’s - £50K in savings, wife and yourself in secure jobs with pensions, combined salary of £80K and 40% equity in your house. Life may seem crap but that’s not too shabby on the grand scale of things.
    We are talking about someone who has gone to the effort of studying to become a doctor here. That's not the same as being just like everyone else otherwise what's the point of being ambitious and pushing yourself - on top of that this is a vital job.

    OP should be on 6 figures IMHO - similar educational profiles in corporate sector would be on at least that.

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