Reply With QuoteIt is a disgrace that any doctor earns £43k. You'd be better off moving to the US or Canada where you can get paid properly.
I have done this sort of thread a couple of times in the past as I feel this forum is quite an interesting place to gauge a bit of public opinion.
You may or may not be aware that the BMA is balloting us junior doctors on strike action in January. The only way I can see a strike not happening is if not enough people join the BMA to vote in the ballot, certainly the general consensus among my colleagues is that we strike. I am interested in people's opinions on this.
Junior doctor pay has dropped in real terms by around 30% since 2008. All the while the job has become more and more shit. We were clapped a couple of years ago but when it comes down to nickels and dimes the government doesn't want to pay us properly. My colleagues are leaving for the antipodes in droves over pay and conditions, more and more are following suit. My opinion is that if this country wants to keep its own medical talent we need to pay it an equivalent amount to other healthcare systems which are happily hoovering up our talent, while the NHS then plunders Nigeria and India for doctors, it's a ridiculous situation.
I feel people often don't have a good grasp of what a doctor earns as the daily mail will tell you we are all on £250k.
Also, to be clear, a junior doctor is any doctor that is not a consultant or fully qualified GP. If you ever have to go to hospital, most of the doctors you will meet will be junior doctors.
I have been a fully qualified doctor since 2015. This year my salary is £43000 which includes a small uplift for evening and weekend work. Out of that salary I have to pay £640 for exams and £425 to the GMC to be allowed to do my job. I have to pay £2.50 a day to park at the place I work. I can, at the drop of hat be moved to a hospital up to 80 miles away from where I work which would leave me even more out of pocket.
I am not looking for sympathy just wanting people to know what the reality of a doctors salary is when we inevitably strike next year.
I realise that £43k is above the average wage in the UK but I don't think I am being big headed when I say my job entails far more skill, training, direct risk and decision making than 99% of other jobs...
Once again, not looking to get support or sympathy, I know I could leave at any point and earn more in a corporate job (believe me I am close). I just want to gauge opinion and educate.
It is a disgrace that any doctor earns £43k. You'd be better off moving to the US or Canada where you can get paid properly.
Many of my colleagues are heading that way. I am torn as I don't want to take my daughter away from her grandparents. So instead I am here struggling to pay my bills...Originally Posted by ryanb741
I am in private sector IT and have never worked in, or close to, the NHS. However I have used the NHS for myself and my family many times and love it for what it is.
I'll stay away from any further political angle, but I'm desperate for us as a country to prioritise the NHS and I believe that's a sentiment that the general public shares (think big red bus and how influential that was). As such, I'm fully in support of the strike action, same for nurses, and an increase in taxation to pay for it is absolutely better than US-type equivalents. I'll not be falling for any propaganda or emotional blackmail rolled out to make this look like NHS staff fault.
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Strike away with my blessing fwiw.
At the end of the day it's your labour ...you've the right to withdraw it.
Last edited by Passenger; 26th November 2022 at 22:10.
Not rubbing it in, just as a comparison. You will have done a 5 year degree plus some qualifying time (registrar etc) and get a £43k salary.
In the team I lead at work a standard account manager selling into advertising agencies or programmatic platforms(no degree requirement, age probably 28-30 so maybe 5 years sales experience) will be on 2.5 times that salary and I'd bet your job is far harder to qualify for and is far more impactful on society.
I'm not a fan of the RM strikes but in the case of the Junior Doctors (and the nurses too) absolutely the pay needs to be addressed.
My elder daughter is a junior doctor too. She works at a London hospital on a development scheme working towards a Consultant Paediatrician role. She spent 6 years at Oxbridge; 2 years on F1/F2 and did an F3 year at Great Ormond Street. Her F1 and F2 years were spent mainly on COVID wards in full PPE - when that arrived - both treating patients and telling relatives the worst possible news. Her description of her day to day workload and responsibilities in her current role dealing with childbirth and newborns frankly terrifies me, though I never tell her this. I am immensely proud of her, and deeply unhappy with the state of the NHS and the burden we place on those at the forefront of patient care. You have my absolute support both in terms of improving your overall reward package, your working environment and the way you are treated by the NHS and general public alike.
It's a disgrace the pay is so poor and should be far higher along with your working environment.
£43k is equivalent to band 6 pay under Agenda For Change. In my area of work that is someone doing doing a 37.5 hour week, 9 to 5 Monday to Friday with a 30 minute lunch break. Although relatively autonomous they have minimal responsibilities.
For a junior doctor, qualified for 7 years, it’s an insult.
I, for one, would fully support those doctors wishing to strike.
Wrong place actually.....but now in the correct place.
This re doctors in surgeries.
Get your backsides back into the surgery and not work in your home.Covid did that,has anyone informed you its no longer the covid we started out with.
And you earn a hell of a lot more than many.
From my Doctor its.
See how it goes,take these for 2 weeks and come back if same!.
Oh and send a pic....which I have to do for a skin issue.
Yes there is a bug going around!.
Treat patients as you would a Rich,well known celeb or Royalty walking into your surgery.
Took the Wife for her camera check,The Doctors records werent the same as the text on her phone,took 30 mins to get there,took literally 2 mins to say sorry not on my records.Good job she is retired and I was off work hey.
And in my Doctors surgery on the monitor.
"Please dont waste the Doctors time,keep your appointment or cancel,or you may be fined".
So will my Wifes Doctor be fined,or my Wife paid for our inconvenience.......NO.
Just my gripes about Doctors.I can see big problems because people didnt get more 1 on 1 time f2f....our Friend died recently,ill not go into all the details here,but she didnt get the time with Doctors when pre covid She would have.
Nothing personal & Im all for strikes for rights and pay.
Last edited by P9CLY; 26th November 2022 at 21:14.
Your salary is a disgrace for what you do. I’m sorry to say that there won’t ever be any UK government that will pay you appropriately. Strike away my friend.
It's a shame the doctors and nurses couldn't organise to strike at the same time.
What boils my urine is that the media constantly publish rubbish the average nurses salary being £37k it was only recently that my wife hit that figure and that was after a few years as a sister the majority of nurses will be a pay band below so band 5 on the agenda for change scale so if they which tops out at under £33k.
In the last seven days my wife has worked 5 days with each shift meant to be 13 hours although 3 of the days she didn't get a break and only once did she finish on time, due to a lack of staff with specialist skills she did back to back days and then fielded calls all night from the staff brought in from other wards to cover.
My day job has been talking of striking and I voted no my pay has annual rises and the conditions are some of the best in my industry, but for any nurses and doctors the situation is untenable and I agree with strike action.
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Quelle surprise...
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
If the job is so crap, why so hard to get into medical school? Do students go into to it with their eyes open?
Yeah I am very aware of the salaries available outside of our crumbling NHS. I have school and uni friends that earn 5 times what I do - I work harder and frankly am more intelligent than all of them but made a bloody stupid mistake when I was 17 and filling in a UCAS form. Things is, it would break my heart to leave medicine as I genuinely do want to do a job that is part of the solution and not the problem (I feel my friends in other industries are certainly part of societal problems). I also think the NHS is amazing because we get to practice medicine without worrying about profit, only what is best for the patient. But frankly, with the past 3 years that doctors have had and the reward we get I will now happily watch the NHS burn.
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No they don't. Most are naive 17 year olds like I was.
It's mid point band 7 rather than band 6 as a basic .
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A fully qualified doctor in a hospital or as GP (not a medical specialist who's done 5, 6 additional years focussing on one area) starts with €70,000 annually, and it will rise over the years to €130k. Oncologists, Cardio and other specialists etc can make up to 170k in the Netherlands.
You are talking about GPs.
As I tried to describe, junior doctors are not GPs.
What is this mistake on your UCAS form that haunts you all these years later?
Ticked the box to apply for Medicine.
It’s top of B6 in Scotland with the latest pay offer.
I quite agree with the sentiment.
However, outside London, 43k is the midpoint of band 7 (reached after 2 years). Band 7 is a senior nurse, entry level psychologist, ward manager etc. Band 6 starts at 33k, finished at 40k.
See post above.
B6, Scotland under latest, and final, pay offer.
An odd comparator to choose then. Not an error on your part?
I live and work in Scotland so, no, not an error and a fair comparison to junior doctor salaries up here.
Does the op work in Scotland? That's where the 43k figure came from.
Not really the correct place TBH.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yes GPs were my target.....or gripe,and really only because of current goings on with the missus and my Mum.
Generally very happy when at the front of the line and dealt with.....
A B6 in Scotland at the top of their band will earn £43k.
A junior doctor in Scotland earns ~£43k hence my comparison.
I’m aware English AfC pay scales are a little less than Scotland, I worked in England for 16 years. With differences in income tax and personal allowances take home pay is about the same or, sometimes, a little less.
The fact remains that gross pay of £43k for a junior doctor is directly comparable to a B6 working in Scotland with significantly less responsibility.
Let’s not get involved in petty debates which detract from the fact that junior doctors are underpaid.
By way of contrast my Bil is a cancer. blood cancer iirc doc in the States...He graduated as a research pharmacologist originally but after a few years, GSK iirc among others, he retrained as Doc, started in his mid 30's Must be late 40's now, been in the big job for maybe 3 years, he's not shy about what he's on, or at least his Dad the FiL isn;t, 6 figs starting with a 3...lot of hours though, weekends to...so he's missing most of his kids early years... I do admire his wifes' tolerance and they've got a nice house but I'm not a huge fan of Charlotte, bit dull, real muggy/humid climate in the Summer.
In my opinion salary should be linked strongly with skill, responsibility/risk and independent decision making. Drs have to do this from day 1, potentially while earning £29k. Makes comparisons with agenda for change somewhat problematic. Don't get me started on comparisons with Physician Associate salaries!
Comparisons with other jobs best avoided!
It sounds like you do need help. Out of interest, what do you do (or used to do) for a living?
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Disgraceful. I would be voting to strike. If you do vote to strike I will 100% support you and your colleagues throughout.
You decided to start comparing doctors and nurses(+everyone else in the nhs) which was foolish imo. I would not do that, especially when it leads to comparing a junior doctor with a fairly senior nurse who could be the senior non-medic in a team, prescribing, etc.
Junior doctors are paid too little, so is nearly everyone else.
I'll be joining the op on strike.
You and the nurses definitely deserve more. Moving off topic a little, have you thought about joining the Army/Navy/RAF as a doctor? Starting salary is £58k and I suspect it'll be a much easier life.
I used to be in the military. Pros and cons. It is a lot of strain on loved ones when you are deployed for 6 months of the year leaving a wife and child at home.
The responsibility and pay of junior doctors is completely out of proportion.
I’d hope a solution can be found without strike action as that just seems to hurt the wrong people.
I don’t think there is any lack of support amongst the general public for NHS pay.
Its a forum for free speech.I did say it was MY gripe.
I didnt direct what I said to the OP.I didnt say anyone needed any help as you did!.
All just my gripe and ONLY because of recent goings on,mostly with my elderly Mum tbh.
The feeling off no real hard help when we try to call a Doctor....mainly.If we weren't here I dont know how Mum would have faired actually.
My daughter is a junior doctor. She did six years in medical schools and ‘graduated’ in 2020 just as covid hit. In fact she didn’t graduate as such; she was drafted in as an interim F1 on a covid palliative care ward in June 2020 immediately after her final exams. She didn’t get a break/holiday and also never got to go to a graduation ceremony with her mates…
She’s done F1/F2 and is now working as a clinical fellow (posh name for an F3) in emergency medicine (A&E). Her base salary is in the low £30k’s and she does earn probably closer to £40k because of the shift patterns. But these are often punishing, i.e. 12 hour overnight shifts in a city centre A&E on a Friday and Saturday.
She’s only had one holiday of more than about 3-4 days in 2 1/2 years. She’s voted to strike and I completely support her.
You can’t be fined for missing an appointment on the NHS mind you.
Last edited by trident-7; 26th November 2022 at 22:21.
Some get used to it - my family did anyway! Were you a doc in the military too?
It tough for junior doctors but there is a pot of gold awaiting.
I have two friends who are GPs (partners) and appear to have pots of cash and lots of holidays.
One of them is just off on holiday to Antarctica for 4 weeks.
I don’t know the details but perhaps it’s a career where the rewards are back weighted.
Im aware of that....would be difficult to try.I was trying to make the point about the patients waste of their time being sort of ok.Whereas theirs was almost criminal.
Reference our 30 min drive with a 2 min chat saying no record of appointment,My Wife came back to get her phone out of her bag with the appointment for a camera procedure.......sorry not on my records he said.
She can wait for the next slot and hopefully nothing serious gone even worse.
I guess many on here will have had something similar.
GP's who are practice partners are running a business. The practice gets funded per head of patients (approx £155 per year) , it has a practice manager who manages the business. Bills, rent, salaries etc. are paid out of the 'per head of funding' from the NHS. There is no 'big salary' paid to them personally from the NHS as a GP. The business has to run like any other business - they commit to it and (potentially) they can do well.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
The golden age of General Practice is over. Some partners are still doing very well but honestly working as a GP is completely untenable these days, I used to work in GP but left because it was awful.
There isn't a pot of gold waiting. There are consultant jobs where you are slightly less underpaid but still underpaid.
Having the prospects of better pay doesn't equate to it being fair to treat and pay jnr docs like shit. Due to compounding interest getting fair pay earlier in your career is worth much much more over your lifetime.
I was just trying to offer a bit of hope through the gloom.
They did their time as junior doctors and ended up very well paid with plenty of holidays.
Anyway that doesn’t detract from the fact junior doctors should receive better pay but more importantly better conditions.
You have my support for what it’s worth.
Due to covid ive not yet got an appointment at my Dentist in Shipley.
But maybe just before covid I went for a filling.Parking the car I noticed 2 BMWs,very nice ones,they stood out lets say,and a Masserati.I joked when I went to the receptionist and said there are some well heeled patients in here(I knew they belonged to the Dentists).She laughed knowingly.
No money in that either hey.
Are Doctors typically badly done to financially?,just wondering.I think in most professional positions no one would expect very high salaries at the start of a career.But what are their potential earnings once fully qualified.
As any discussion its heading off topic and ripe for the gutter.....hopefully not.
Just general chit chat....no more no less.
Last edited by P9CLY; 26th November 2022 at 22:43.
The rest of the world is functioning pretty well - maybe you need to move?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Where did I compare doctors and nurses? I am not a nurse and neither is anyone in my teams.
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