Wifi & Broadband - help please!

[jacinabox]

I'm well and truly out of my depth here and regardless of how much I read into this trickery it's not helping.

I've just cancelled my Virgin package the BB was OK but with wife uploading video art lessons it was painfully slow. Patchy download speeds at extremes of house limits and nothing worthwhile outside.
Now going to have "proper" fibre up to new router not a hybrid type of fibre and copper that VM uses.

I've had a natter with new local provider who's core business is commercial but now branching out to domestic provision. Apparently I'll be getting 300Mbs up and down speeds, it's Gigabit stuff and WiFi 6 standard.

I want to make the most of what I'm paying for and to get WiFi outside (it's important to me) and have decent coverage throughout my home I may need a mesh set-up.
I bought a set of TP-link Deco M5 'pods' - hasty purchase from SC! Apparently they're not WiFi 6 compatible. Haven't a clue really what WiFi 6 gives apart from speed...but what does that mean in the real world? If I use the M5's what will I be missing?

What I really want achieve is to avoid the whinging wife and how long it takes to upload 30 min hi-res video's...suspect doing it via WiFi is not the way on a iPad. Something that'll be looked at later.

TP-link customer service tells me they will work but have suggested a mesh system that is wifi 6 standard would be better...my ferreting around (blindly) suggests TP-link Deco X60 - 3 pack may do the trick if I'm going to lose capability using a lower standard set-up.

The router that the installer is fitting is a TP-link EX230V ...if I do get a mesh system that's to the latest standard should I be sticking to the same manufacturer as the router?

Hope those in the know with inter-netty stuff can decipher what I'm trying to ask...no doubt Mt terminology is all wrong as well!

Advice will be hugely appreciated before I throw another chunk of cash (blindly again!) at something that's wrong or not needed.Keeping what's left of my hair would be good too :)

David

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[blackal]

Any chance you can get ethernet cables run from the router to a couple of points in the house that could be covered by Wireless Access Points (WAPs)?

Or a single Cat-6 cable to a mini-switch somewhere to a couple of WAPs?

Each WAP is powered by Power Over Ethernet using power injectors inline with the router/switch out to the WAP.

I have a Ubiquiti Nano system of 2 waps (one up, one down) and you can get outdoor ones also, or with careful sighting of the downstairs one - can cover indoors and outdoors through the window.

https://ui.com/wi-fi

They are a much more elegant solution than Mesh systems.

[wileeeeeey]

A large part of the consideration will be how much you want to pay and what your existing ethernet situation looks like.

Mesh imo isn't that great unless the individual units are connected to eachother by ethernet, then it's fantastic.

I wouldn't get too hung up on WiFi 6 tbh. One of my five WiFi points is WiFi 5 and I can't say I notice an unreal amount of difference. Most devices in your home right now won't be WiFi 6 anyway.

I use Ubiquiti which I think is first class and never seems to need tweaking.

[SydR]

Before you spend a lot of time setting up WiFi 6 have a look at what speeds you get on your devices and also see what, if any, are WiFi 6 themselves.

I get around 560Mbps up and down on my own network using a Deco S4 mesh at home. That easily exceeds the 300Mbps you have.

[jacinabox]

blackal, wileeeeeey & SydR thank you all, useful stuff. Things are becoming a little clearer now. Should've asked a few weeks ago!

From this I understand wifi 6 isn't going to offer much more than the previous standard. That helps because I already have the Deco M5 units which will work with the package I'm getting according to TP-link.

I'd already gathered that connecting the units with ethernet cable was the way to go. I've ordered a couple of 20m cables which hopefully will be enough to reach the 'pods' planned positions.
Easy to run under suspended floors but getting one upstairs will require some thought with cable being hidden, but doable I'm sure.
Am I right in thinking the 'pods' are daisy chained to each other? Any issues with ethernet cable (cat 6) being adjacent to domestic power cables?

Provider is doing the installation next week so I'll see how much their router improves whole house coverage over VM's and go from there.

Still a little concerned about outside coverage...I've got a Kamado Joe and bought a WiFi temperature controller for it, the thing is stuck in a corner next to the house which is double brick and no where near a window. How transparent is double brick for wifi? One of the
Pods will be on an internal wall but about 2m from the KJ - in with a chance of getting a wifi signal?

Sure I'm still getting the terminology wrong!!

David

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[blackal]

With the Ubiquiti (and other WAP systems) - you have:

Your Broadband router (which may also have it's own wifi signal - can be left on or disabled) with hopefully a few Ethernet ports in back.

New) A POE Injector unit ( takes patch cable from router above, and outputs it with power to a WAP) It can either be next to your router or local to the WAP. You will have one POE injector unit for each WAP.

New) A WAP (located on wall or in ceiling) at the other end of the POE Cat-6 cable. You will prob have two WAPS.

New) Possibly an outdoor WAP which will require the network cable through the wall. OR - as mentioned, you may get away with another indoor WAP (maybe a longer range one) mounted sympathetically.

THE WAPS ARE NOT DAISY-CHAINED. each one has a separate cable from the router-POE injector.

The entire system is easily set up for Main and Guest networks, with each of those being 2.4Ghz and/or 5Ghz (some wifi accessories around the house only work on 2.4Ghz) I generally have both networks operating on both frequencies. It is all set up and monitored from any laptop or PC with the app (either via WiFi, or if the wifi has gone down - via patch cable into the router.)

System will look a bit like this:



You could cater for outdoors with a cheaper non mesh antenae (but it will be a differnent network) - but that shouldn't matter for an accessory. I can switch on garage tap, and door motor from my WAP system when the accessories are on the BT hub wifi in the garage. BUT - if you want full meshing capability (to save logging on to the outdoor wifi while out there or to use Wifi calling seemlessly between outdoors/indoors - then you really need them all on the same system.

re-reading your last post - if a WAP is mounted to inside of double-brick wall then I 'think' you will be okay for the quality of signal you would need for your Meater probe. If you were looking for fast wifi out there poss not. (although I get mine through single concrete/timber wall out to my patio for internet)

Best source of Ubiquiti (and poss others) that I have found is: https://www.netxl.com/.

It doesn't state absolutely on the Netxl site that the POE injector is provided, but there is one boxed with the Nano WAPs so you don't have additional cost. You could always give them a call and mention what you are looking for. They may have other recommendations wrt make, but Ubiquiti seems to be the 'darling of today'.

[jacinabox]

Said lots of useful stuff and caused me more confusion just when I thought I was getting my head round it all !!!

and THE WAPS ARE NOT DAISY-CHAINED

I need to do more reading perhaps.

The 'WAPS' Is that what I'm referring to as 'pods'

The system in your diagram, is that a typical Mesh set up or something completely different?

I'm struggling to see the similarity to the box of TP-link trickery I was planning to use. As I'm reading for my intended set-up I connect one of the pods to the router with the supplied patch cable, then ethernet cable, daisy chained to the two further pods. Not connecting each one individually to the router, albeit the router has 4 ethernet connections...
Each of my 3 pods has 2 ethernet connections; sure somewhere along the way I read they're to be connected daisy chained style.

I'll take a look at the ubiquiti links you provided over the w/e, thanks. But as I have some mesh kit that will work I think I'll be giving that a go first.

The outside kit for the KJ is a couple of probes and a fan...I can monitor & control the slow cooking of my big chunks of pig from far away - no doubt that'll be another hair pulling exercise getting that to work LOL !






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[wileeeeeey]

WAP and POD are the same thing. WAP just means Wireless Access Point. Same as a pod. Sometimes people refer to them as the base station and the repeaters.

Only difference with mesh is the WAPs should work together to share one network rather than 3/4/5 networks which just happen to have the same name. A big clue of this is if the WiFi is pants and 1 bar strength but if you turn WiFi on your laptop off and on its suddenly 5 bars. This just means although there is a better WAP closer the laptop/phone didn't know and just kept holding onto the bad signal WAP as it didn't know there was a better one to transfer to. Multiple networks with the same name Vs one network working together.

The cheapest way forward is probably just setting up the kit you've got with ethernet and seeing how you get on. 350 isn't a mental speed (it's 35% of 1gig) so WiFi 5 should be more than good enough really.

[wileeeeeey]

Another point on the PoE stuff (power over Ethernet so you don't need a power cable and an ethernet cable) is the adapters work well but if you do get to the point of renewing your set up and ignoring what you bought you can buy a main internet unit with PoE built in so you don't need adapters and it's cleaner. I wouldn't suggest it at this point but it's worth noting.

For example I don't have power in this cupboard (WIP, don't judge me!) But I do have PoE so I can power a mini switch (like a double adapter for plugs but for ethernet) which then powers an AP and another mini switch which my TV and Xbox is plugged into along with a CCTV camera for the side of the house.

[Captain Morgan]

Lots of good advice already but I’ll try and add.

All things being equal I’d say if we were starting with a blank canvas I’d suggest something like the unifi or Omada systems ideally with ceiling mounted accesspoints (ap’s). This makes management easier by only having a single point of management. But this might not fit with ether budget or domestic challenges as they require hardwiring.

Wireless mesh systems are a possibility but the deco m5 is not great as it doesn’t have a dedicated wireless interconnect between nodes which limits its wireless throughput capabilities. Are you open to trying another wireless mesh option & returning it to Amazon if it’s not providing the performance you expected/need?

I think even though you have answered some of these questions already it’s useful take a step back and give us some more info & keep it in one post.


This will help us to give some meaningful advice other than the standard buy from Amazon because it’s a easy return if it’s not significant enough of a improvement.

What size home?

# of bedrooms?

# of floors?

layout (square, long & thin, ‘L’ shaped, etc, etc)?

Construction type?

Internal wall type

Who is the isp?

Where is/will the isp line presented in the home?

What speed is the line / any plans to upgrade?
Note as your wife is upload focused you need to confirm the uplink speed too.

What is the current modem/fw/router/switch/accesspoint ‘box’?

Does the isp allow you to use your own ‘router box thing’?

How many wired clients ?

What switches if any?

How many wireless clients?

Any structured cabling in place / plans for?

Any dead zones (now or with the previous fw/router/switch/accesspoint box)?

Budget?

Are you using sky q mini boxes?

[Captain Morgan]

Another point on the PoE stuff (power over Ethernet so you don't need a power cable and an ethernet cable) is the adapters work well but if you do get to the point of renewing your set up and ignoring what you bought you can buy a main internet unit with PoE built in so you don't need adapters and it's cleaner. I wouldn't suggest it at this point but it's worth noting.

For example I don't have power in this cupboard (WIP, don't judge me!) But I do have PoE so I can power a mini switch (like a double adapter for plugs but for ethernet) which then powers an AP and another mini switch which my TV and Xbox is plugged into along with a CCTV camera for the side of the house.

[shakes head] Oh Wiley… ;-)

[wileeeeeey]

[shakes head] Oh Wiley… ;-)

Work in progress!

[blackal]

You DO know that you can switch off the blue LED ring?

[blackal]

I’ve only got 2 WAPs, and would only go for a POE switch if I needed 4 or more. That said I would want some redundancy in case of PSU failure. I have one POE Injection PSU as spare. I stickied the mounts for the POE PSUs to the top of the switch, as shown - neat enough. My router, switch, patch panel are in a glass-fronted rack in the garage.

The "WiFi Bridge" unit connects the water valve across the other side of the garage to the BT router Wifi - so I can operate the switch on a timer controlled by my phone.

[wileeeeeey]

You DO know that you can switch off the blue LED ring?

It's off in three rooms and will be on this one once I can be bothered to drill through to the kitchen which is where it would be.

One day I'll get there but I'm still absolutely fuming that the electrician who laid the cat6 during the rewire (and said he'd done this 100x before) put in back boxes meant for plugs which are more shallow than the correct internet/ethernet back boxes meaning most Ethernet ports are useless. I can screw the face plates on but there is unterminated cat6 behind it.

The options are 1. rip out the back box, make the hole bigger, put in the correct one, fill and paint. 2. Use the in wall Ubiquiti APs which are WiFi 5 (done this in one room but £100 a pop is rough) or 3. Just screw on the face plates and don't use them

Gone with options 3 so far.

[blackal]

I need to do more reading perhaps.

The 'WAPS' Is that what I'm referring to as 'pods' YES, although PODS 'tends' to be used primarily for MESH systems (mostly)

The system in your diagram, is that a typical Mesh set up or something completely different? That is a "One WAP system" You'd prob have two waps so would duplicate everything downstream of the Router

I'm struggling to see the similarity to the box of TP-link trickery I was planning to use. As I'm reading for my intended set-up I connect one of the pods to the router with the supplied patch cable, then ethernet cable, daisy chained to the two further pods. Not connecting each one individually to the router, albeit the router has 4 ethernet connections...
Each of my 3 pods has 2 ethernet connections; sure somewhere along the way I read they're to be connected daisy chained style. With daisy-chaining, if your PODS are this side of the plasterboard - you will have two ethernet cables and one power cable transiting the plasterboard.

I'll take a look at the ubiquiti links you provided over the w/e, thanks. But as I have some mesh kit that will work I think I'll be giving that a go first.

Then run the MESH system in non-daisychain mode. Pair them up and drive them via individual ethernet cables from a mini-switch or your router. At least you will have the cabling in (probably) for when you want to go to a WAP system.

The outside kit for the KJ is a couple of probes and a fan...I can monitor & control the slow cooking of my big chunks of pig from far away - no doubt that'll be another hair pulling exercise getting that to work LOL ! As I said - you just need an old wifi router strategically placed that gets fed from your main router. You will still be able to communicate with it on that different mini-network.

responses above in red.

[Captain Morgan]

It's off in three rooms and will be on this one once I can be bothered to drill through to the kitchen which is where it would be.

One day I'll get there but I'm still absolutely fuming that the electrician who laid the cat6 during the rewire (and said he'd done this 100x before) put in back boxes meant for plugs which are more shallow than the correct internet/ethernet back boxes meaning most Ethernet ports are useless. I can screw the face plates on but there is unterminated cat6 behind it.

The options are 1. rip out the back box, make the hole bigger, put in the correct one, fill and paint. 2. Use the in wall Ubiquiti APs which are WiFi 5 (done this in one room but £100 a pop is rough) or 3. Just screw on the face plates and don't use them

Gone with options 3 so far.

Lj6c modules are older style punch downs are quite shallow, have you looked at them?
https://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/cat6-m...045700240.html

And/or faceplate spacers to get the extra depth needed.

[blackal]

It's off in three rooms and will be on this one once I can be bothered to drill through to the kitchen which is where it would be.

One day I'll get there but I'm still absolutely fuming that the electrician who laid the cat6 during the rewire (and said he'd done this 100x before) put in back boxes meant for plugs which are more shallow than the correct internet/ethernet back boxes meaning most Ethernet ports are useless. I can screw the face plates on but there is unterminated cat6 behind it.

The options are 1. rip out the back box, make the hole bigger, put in the correct one, fill and paint. 2. Use the in wall Ubiquiti APs which are WiFi 5 (done this in one room but £100 a pop is rough) or 3. Just screw on the face plates and don't use them

Gone with options 3 so far.

You missed it, and I can't find it............. In an older thread I posted a pic of my WAP in my kitchen and you commented "You can switch off the LED light, you know"

[jacinabox]

Lots of good advice already but I’ll try and add.

All things being equal I’d say if we were starting with a blank canvas I’d suggest something like the unifi or Omada systems ideally with ceiling mounted accesspoints (ap’s). This makes management easier by only having a single point of management. But this might not fit with ether budget or domestic challenges as they require hardwiring.
Ceiling mounting will be much more difficult than wall mounting - I'll go for wall mounting

Are you open to trying another wireless mesh option & returning it to Amazon if it’s not providing the performance you expected/need?
Yes

I think even though you have answered some of these questions already it’s useful take a step back and give us some more info & keep it in one post.


This will help us to give some meaningful advice other than the standard buy from Amazon because it’s a easy return if it’s not significant enough of a improvement.

What size home? ~ 2,500 sq ft

# of bedrooms? 3

# of floors? 2

layout (square, long & thin, ‘L’ shaped, etc, etc)? ~ square'ish

Construction type? double brick

Internal wall type mostly single brick, some plasterboard.

Who is the isp? Fibrecast - local provider

Where is/will the isp line presented in the home? at front of house into living room

What speed is the line / any plans to upgrade? 300Mbps up & down. Full fibre to router

Note as your wife is upload focused you need to confirm the uplink speed too. 300Mbps

What is the current modem/fw/router/switch/accesspoint ‘box’? Current VM hub3. Mid next week TP-Link EX230V

Does the isp allow you to use your own ‘router box thing’? Not sure

How many wired clients ? Emm?!

What switches if any? None

Any structured cabling in place / plans for? At the moment no, But if needed am prepared to do it.

Any dead zones (now or with the previous fw/router/switch/accesspoint box)? At extreme edges of building v.poor to nil. Outside, at least where Ineed it, nil...but that's at the furthest distance from router location.

Budget? £500'ish for hardware. Cable instal etc I can do.

Are you using sky q mini boxes? No

Love to have been able to cleverly answered you questions in a different colour - I can't find an option to do that.
Answered what I can.

Having read through some of the posts, there appears to be some heavy duty set-ups. Makes me wonder how I've got by all these years with one wire coming through the floor to a router but we pretty much have.
I'm starting to question what I'm doing now!

I can see why Captain Morgan has asked pertinent questions regarding the physical aspects of setting some sort of system up, I'm asking questions on why do I need to do this.

There's only the two of us, both retired and I don't think we're heavily reliant on 'internety' stuff for work ot turning taps on!

We have in got by without any issues using Virgins 100 Mbps service for a good few years (apart from wife uploading videos) The only reason we're changing provider is because I'm hacked off with re-negotiating with VM over price increases every 18 months and the new provider is offering 3x speed for similar money.
We subscribe to Netflix, Prime, Now and Disney all work fine over wifi to smart TV - never had any stuttering and all watched in highest quality.

If I can get a simple system in place (I'm not going to get away with lots of boxes and something that looks like a snakes wedding connecting them all) that will improve wifi throughout the home, can get the smart TV upstairs to work and my wifi cooker controller thingy to work outside, I'll be winning!
I've probably picked something else up wrongly...some of these set-ups appear to need you to login to these nodes in different areas of the house. I need one login for the whole area covered.

As for Mrs JiaB, I 'think' I may have discovered why there's so much wailing and gnashing of teeth when she's trying to upload videos...doing it via wifi isn't the way? Needs to somehow connect her ipad to the router with a piece of 'internet string'. Right or wrong and how to do it please?

Bearing in mind that the Deco M5 isn't the best solution and i'm stuck with it for now, I'm inclined to give it a go once the new instalation is in place and see if it'll give me better coverage. If not, I'll revisit the recommendations made so far.
Genuinely appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions. I'm not ignoring anything you all say...this can be my winter project :)

Thanks, David

[blackal]

On a WAP system - you set up your device (laptop, phone etc) into Main and Guest networks with Main being "connect automatically" (you don't even need to set up a Guest network, but it takes no time)

Once you have done that (just like you would do if you went to a friend's house and logged into their wifi) - you will connect automatically as you come in through the house door.

What it gives you is seemless moving from one WAP to another. For example - if you are using wifi calling in the bedroom and you walk downstairs and into the coverage of your downstairs WAP. No drop off, and no logging back in.

That is why in large office buildings - WAPs will allow complete uninterupted coverage.

My LAN system was in the house from new, with 2 sockets in every room, hence the switch and patch panel. But - if I was just using WIFI - I would simply install ethernet cables straight from my BT HUB to a couple of WAPs.

[Captain Morgan]

It sounds like you don't need anything on the 'Pro-sumer' side, a solid wifi coverage with good upload & good garden/bbq coverage is it. Joined with the ~£500 budget (I think) we can rule out the Unifi / Omada options.

Before talking specifics here are some general thoughts / pointers.

The 'router box' connected to the incoming line is much more than a router, it is often a modem (converting the incoming line to a ethernet connection), a firewall (keeps your home network isolated from unwanted connections to the internet), a router (this works out if a device connected to your wifi or the switch wants to talk to a device inside your home network (lan) or out on the internet (wan)) , a switch (this allows you to make a wired connection to the router and give that connectivity to the lan & wan) and a wifi access point (this can be considered a wireless switch)

in general a wired connection will be faster & more reliable than a wireless one.

All mesh & access point solutions need at least one access point wired to the router

There are a number of different flavours of mesh systems. All of them need to be interconnected (backhaul), think of it as a chain, that chain starts (or finishes) at your wireless device, phone, tablet, laptop etc, that connects to a wireless access point be that a deco M5 or the access point in the 'router box', the type of interconnect (backhaul) can be a wired ethernet cable, it can be wireless or you can have something called powerline which uses your ring mains as ethernet, as you'd expect wired is generally the better performance but harder to physically install, wifi is easier but has the challenges of penetrating through walls etc.

wifi generally has a much easier time passing through normal joists & floorboards as opposed to bricks, for example I have had my 'router box' & now a single access point in my loft & it covers a home aprox the same size as yours perfectly well on both floors. This could be an option if you have power in the loft or/& the means to get a couple of ethernet cables up to it. If you think about wifi as a bubble that forms around the access point putting it in the loft allows the bubble to form without hitting any walls and then the bubble has a easier time passing through the ceilings and floors rather wnar trying to penetrate through walls.

wifi is a more like a two way conversation than say a lecture meaning that both the access point & wifi client have to be able to talk to each other, having one with a loud volume doesn't help if the other party in the conversation has a weak voice, this is often where folk get caught out they put a mesh node with a wifi backhaul connection in a dead zone & it struggles to maintain the conversation with the other mesh node('s) because its in a wifi dead zone.
Its much better to have the nodes closer together so they can maintain the conversation, think about the ripples on a still pond from a stone the farther they travel the weaker they get now use two stones you want teh nodes to have a strong conjoing od ripples but also resonable distance between them.

Whatever you do generally the client device will decide what access point it connects to, the mesh systems or access points have little involvement in which node a client connects to, thes means you can get situations where a client hangs onto a weak connection despite having a much nearer & stronger one close by.

if you have devices that you care about speed/reliability such as a 'office' pc you upload lots of data from try and get them wired rather than rely on wifi.

Some isp's force you to use there 'router box' some don't I cant figure out which type yours is, so we'll assume they are the former & you have to use their router, this is important as it effects how you set up the mesh system.


There are four main types of 'mesh':

You have the dedicated access point solution where these are often ceiling mounted, wired back to a switch & may or may not connect to a dedicated router, these generally give the best performance.
They kind of setup Wiley, blackal & I have.

2 channel wireless mesh this is what you have with the M5's this means the nodes have 2 radios in each node one on the 2.5Ghz frq, the other on the 5Ghz frq the backhaul connection is made on the 5Ghz radio & this is shared with any devices that also use that frq of wifi.

3 channel wireless mesh is as above but has a third radio also on the 5Ghz frq that is a dedicated one for the backhaul connection, which in turn improves the speeds for client devices on that frq.

Generally both of these types can be wired together with ethernet cables giving a wired backhaul & performance & placement options closer to the dedicated access point solutions.

The last type use powerline technology to use the domestic ring main as the backhaul between nodes, generally these speed of these are limited due to the nature of this tech to 200-300Mbs which shouldn't be a issue if you chose this route as it is close to your line speed anyway. They also come witht he freedom of placement you get with wired access points, however they don't work in all situations & rely on the quality of your electrical circuits.


Device placement:
As a first step think about the floor plan of the house & split it into the number of mesh nodes you have, so if you have four nodes split the home in quarters, if its three, thirds, then you place a node as close to the center of each segment as you can.

At least one node needs to be close to your 'router box' & be cabled to it, you may obviously want to bias key areas such as getting a node towards the rear of the house to see if that will cover the bbq area, closer to a office space etc.

Try that with wireless backhaul & see how the speeds and stability are before making the call to run more cables.


Connection & Setup:

you will need to setup the M5's in 'access point" mode page 31
https://static.tp-link.com/upload/ma...20M5_UG_V1.pdf

Generally you disable the wifi within the isp provided 'router box' & allow the decos to perform all the wifi access point dutys.

You could roll out the decos now if you wished while you are waiting for the new service to be installed & then its a simple matter of moving the cable from the deco to 'router box' over to the new one.
Also you can use the same wireless network name (ssid) & password on the deco's as is on your VM box to save you having to change the wireless credentials on every device, obviously turn the wifi off on the vm box first.


Simple eh...



You have a number of options open to you:

Do nothing & see how the new 'router box' works / advise the wife to be closer to the box when performing critical uploads.

Roll out the M5's wirelessly

Try them wired

Buy something else


There are a few more things to consider but they come a bit down the road, let me know if you need any clarification & how it goes.

[blackal]

My Unifi Ubiquiti 2 WAPs came in at £278 inc VAT.

For a fresh install - you'd need to allow for cabling and RJ45 sockets for two locations.

[Captain Morgan]

My Unifi Ubiquiti 2 WAPs came in at £278 inc VAT.

For a fresh install - you'd need to allow for cabling and RJ45 sockets for two locations.

The challenge is getting cables to a suitable ceiling space, unless you have easy routes to them or the loft you’re likely to breach the budget just on running the cables & making good.

[jacinabox]

Thanks for the additional posts.

Captain Morgan; superb post and I appreciate you taking the time to provide so much useful information. I've learnt more from that than hours spent on the net ferreting stuff out and achieving little else other than confusion. I certainly have a better understanding of the terminolgy and what the parts all do!

To answer some of the points your mention;

Ceiling mount. Understand the idea but the practicalities make it a no. The roof is chalet style, access is poor and once in there there's barely any room to move - nasty place.

Ring main. Not just now, I think I'm getting close to a rewire. Mixture of new and old red/black cable with evidence of some pretty crude spurs and ring main extensions.

Budget. I'm not cosidering the cost of hard wiring, beyond the materials which shouldn't be significant, I'm happy to instal and make good. Outlets doesn't appear too difficult (said optimistically!)

Using the ISP router. I'll ask, I've already spoken to the ISP owner, he knows what I'm trying to achieve and has suggested trying their router first and go from there which seems sensible. I understand the router is supplied to ISP's so I assume there will be better options to be had.

Device placement. Given that some thought and think I have a couple of spots that should give fairly even coverage. Not going to do anything until the new router is fitted and then have the M5's 'floating' but connected with ethernet cable to refine best position. Your analogy with ripples in a pond is perfect and understood!
On placement, the M5's will it make a difference if they're mounted vertically & flat on a wall or should the be horizontal on a flat surface. I read they have 4 antenna's in each unit for 'beam forming' Wonder if this is a critical consideration or am I overthinking it!

Wife and uploading. She's within 3ft and in line of sight of current router. Going to have to dig around and see how an ipad can be connected to router. If I go to the effort and some expense of doing all this and there's no improvement for her, I'm not going to be popular!

I'm sure there's more I need to ask (and will!) but feel hugely more confident now - again, thank you :)

David

[Captain Morgan]

Glad you found it of use.

Re the orientation the m5's are designed to lay flat in the horizontal to give their best performance, think of it like a bubble of strong wifi signal, the top 180° will be football sized while the bottom only cricket ball sized. That doesn't mean they wont work some folk with long rectangular homes report wall mounting a ceiling mount access point and projecting the wifi signal into the home.

before doing a final install its worth buying some long ethernet cables & test in the proposed locations.


Re the ipad speed its also worth noting that the upload speed issue could be your line, the vm hub, the ipad itself, the upload site or a combination of factors, its worth considering trying to do some benchmarks now so you have figures to compare to.

If it were me I'd run a few speed tests on the ipad & another device over wifi & compare these to the upload of the media from the ipad, hopefully they are roughly equivalent & = your lines uplink speed.
Ideally I'd then try with a computer wired to the switch & check if thats around the same speed as wifi & finaly Id use a program called iperf3 which is a speed test that you run on two devices on your home network, in this case the computer wired to the vm hub & the ipad, test both upload & download & this will give a indication of the maximum throughput the ipad will achieve.


Also some thoughts about wiring, before you start its just worth stepping back & thinking about where you will want to put network drops, plus any additional ones such as tv point in the lounge & kitchen, spare bedroom as a office or a dedicated office, any cctv plans, etc?

What about the possibility of a external access point covering the bbq/garden?

if you come to more than the two access point connections you might want to consider if you have a space you can run the cabling back to, a under stair or coat cupboard, a utility room, etc that has or can have power that you can run the cabling back to you obviously need to to use a small switch (cheap as chips these days) & run a line from the fibre ingress/new router to this area, definitely more work but it might be better than having a bunch of 1gang faceplates on show where the router will be.


Finally I've cut and pasted a discussion about what type of cat cable to use. You'll really need to use solid core cat cable & terminate it to some keystone jacks rather than use off the shelf patch cables for the inter connects.

Not strictly true about the poe point, cat5e, 6 &6a can all carry poe at 100m rated spec.

The issues are generally with the conductor some (cheaper) cables are labelled cca (copper clad aluminium) these are worse conductors than pure copper, which in some rare cases have lead to burnt cables.


As for which is best that’s a question of cost, installation, use & duration.

In a domestic setting you expect a 10 year plus lifespan so generally you’d want the latest spec you can afford to future proof the install as much as possible.

However that will depend on the property it’s being installed into as 6 & 6a are slightly harder to install due to increased bend radius due to the cables having a plastic spine & more fiddly to terminate so a question about who will install & test it, will they have the tools & knowledge to test 10 gig?

Do you need 10 gig? 5e will happily deliver 2.5, 5 & there are loads of reports of it delivering 10 gig (at sub 50m distances) if properly installed.

It’s a balancing act, if going into a new build or a major renovation then today I’d likely go 6a, if wanting to install a few runs with minimum hassle in a older property I’d happily use 5e.

[jacinabox]

Another excellent post Captain M' - thank you! Certainly some good stuff in there to consider.

Instal is happening Thursday and I understand the sitting of the router can have an influence on how well the WiFi covers the home.
Current VM router is located in one corner of the house and sitting on a shelf about 15" off the floor - then pretty much blocked in by furniture; perhaps why it doesn't appear to work well?

I've got three new possible router locations which are more central in the house. Hopefully I can persuade the installer to leave a long fibre incoming cable to let me mess around once set up...some unpleasant time to be spent under the floors!

Got a couple of 20m Cat 6 ethernet cables - I'll use those to see if I can find the best locations for the WAP's before final locations are fixed.
Not sure I understand why I might have a need to run cables/use a switch to a cupboard etc...I'll keep re-reading it until it clicks!

I'll see if I can find time to some speed tests done and use as a comparator with the new set up. Again the term 'switch' is used...I don't think I have any switches!

Still a lot for me to think about especially for future needs. For now I feel reasonably confident in playing around with the WAP's I have and then going further if needed dependant on how my first steps work out.

Again, hugely appreciate the information you've given me...it's been invaluable :)



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[Captain Morgan]

Sorry for any confusion caused about the cable installation & switches I'll try an clarify that in a moment, first your fibre instal.


I strongly suspect (99%+) your installer will install two items.

1 a ont box this box will convert the fibre cable to a copper connection that goes to the router.
Something like this but likely not openreach branded, green is incoming fibre line, yellow/black the copper network cable, white power.



2 The 'router' box.

They are connected via a ethernet cable, now its extremely unlikely that the installer will leave you with a fly lead of fibre cable for you to site the ont & router in your ideal position. However its perfectly permissible to use a longer ethernet cable between the ont & router.
The back of the router has four yellow ethernet ports, the one with the blue accent is the wan port which connects to the ont ( the gateway to the internet)
The other yellow ports are switch ports that you would connect the wap's to.
The green is a analog phone jack.

https://static.tp-link.com/upload/im...309095917r.jpg


I'd leave the system as installed a few days to ensure the service is stable before testing but is perfectly safe to swap out the ethernet cable that goes from ont to the 'router' wan port to reposition them.
Note it can take ~20 mins for the service to establish its self if you disconnect this link, often much quicker but I note it so you dont think you've broken something if its not immediately back up.

Again it's worth having some speed test data pre/post any test relocation so you have an idea if anything has broken, tests from a computer wired to the router are best as it removes wifi performance from the equation.

Hopefully that's set you up on what to expect re the install & leads into the point I was attempting to make about the cabling.







Cabling / Switches:

At present its just 2 or 3 cable runs that you are contemplating I believe just for the wap's.

It sounds like you are considering running them from whatever area the wap is located in directly to the 'router' location - absolutely fine but you've now got three cables to either mount on/in wall boxes or just sprout out of the wall.

Then you make a decision that the bbq area doesn't have good enough coverage & decide to put in a outside wap just to cover that & the garden & so now its a 4th cable to present by the 'router'

Then the wife does decide to have a home office for the growing business & you want a computer & printer & phone all wired, so thats at least one more cable to present to the 'router'

Quite soon its a mini rats nest of cables & the unfortunate day comes when a decision is made that the hall table that the 'router' is on does not fit the decor anymore & simply has to go & cant we just move that 'box' the other side of the wall...

Now you have to manage the relocation of 5-6 cables instead of 1.




So I get there's a lot of what if & projection there it's simply to build the image.


Now think about those old black & white moves with switchboard operators who take a line & plug it into another extension to route a call, that switchboard is the central hub & everything hangs off of that.


So in my example above assuming you have a under stair cupboard the wap's cable runs go back to there, that becomes your central hub.

The ont &/or modem has a cable run back to there, the office & outside wap etc all go back to there & its hidden, never needs to move & easy to expand if you need to install new cable runs or relocate existing ones.

Perhaps if the old switchboard analogy didn't land consider it as a hub & spoke, the far end of each spoke is a device that needs to be wired & the hub is the central point at which the inter connections between devices are made.


If it really is only 2/3 & will never need grow or move its likely a moot point, however should you suspect it could grow or change I'm simply pointing out a way to mitigate the risk.



Finally Switches:
if you refer to the photo of the back of the router you'll note it has the 4 yellow ethernet ports the blue accented one is the wan (wide area network) or gateway to the internet, the other three are 'lan' (local area network) this is for your internal devices to connect to, you'll see you can connect up to three devices & they will all connect to the single wan connection, the switch is a agregation point allowing more devices to communicate over that one outgoing line.


This is the same if you want to run four wired connections to that router, it only has three lan ports, so you buy a switch with the number of ports you need (typically £15-25 for 5-8 ports), connect that to the switch on the 'router' & that one 'router' port now services 4-7 extra devices.

Typically you would put the 'main' / 'core' switch at the hub.


Hopefully I've clarified rather than muddied the water more, good luck on Thursday.

[hogthrob]

Slightly OT, but these wall grommets are great when you're passing cables through walls. Also available from Screwfix, Toolstation etc.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/cable-wall-...e+wall+grommet

[jacinabox]

Slightly OT, but these wall grommets are great when you're passing cables through walls. Also available from Screwfix, Toolstation etc.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/cable-wall-...e+wall+grommet

Yes, they look as though the may be useful, thanks for the link.

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[jacinabox]

Another superb post by Captain M, slowly but surely I'm getting my head around what I need to be doing. Thank you again!

Understand what switches are (and do) now, all sounds sensible and logical now. While I don't just now see a need for lots of wifi hungry bits and pieces beyond perhaps upgrading our wired security camera's, getting a switch fitted will make it far easier to sort out.

Didn't realise a 'box' would be fitted on the incoming fibre cable before the router...thought it would be the same as VM, though I suspect there is some sort of box under the floor as all that's visible of the current VM router cabling is a piece of coax cable coming through the floor - little matter. At least I know I can connect the new router in it's final position with an ethernet cable.

As said earlier, this will be my winter project, so plenty of time to sort out best location for all the bits 'n pieces.
For sure, I doubt I'd have achieved anything of use without your help and advice (and from others too)

My priority is getting a decent outside signal for my cooker and saving my ears from the wife's complaints on uploading - I'm on the way hopefully!

I'll give you a ittle update once the fitting is sorted; again thank you :)


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[jacinabox]

An update of sorts...best laid plans and all that; it didn't work out as I'd hoped!

Fitting team rolled up as expected, friendly and helpful and understood what I was trying to achieve. I had a choice of 3 locations for the router but I've only managed to get it installed in my least favoured position, in the corner of the house as far away from where I wanted to get good wifi outside.
I managed to get myself stuck under the floor - dwarf walls supporting joists under living room had a very small crawl space built into them. Was close to having to get carpets and floor boards up to to get me out...just so I could run ethernet cables from the ont box to try different router locations. Going to hire a small kid to sort it out. One knackerd shoulder and ripped up back, at nearly 70 I'm not going there again <sniff>

All not lost though, wifi through the house is much improved and I'm getting a bit of wifi at the back of the house now - not a lot so I definitely need to try these WAP's. However to do this I understand I need to set the router in AP mode, no idea on that but according to TP-Link this will have to be done by the provider. Waiting to hear back from him, also want to know if I can use an alternative router - Captain Morgan, I assume there may be better options?

I've grabbed some quick readings for wifi with the new service v Virgins. I'll try Captain M's suggestion to use iperf3 when Mrs JiaB lets me have the laptop back. Readings taken with Speed Checker app via phone.

Virgin Media 100Mb/s readings taken in same room as router.
95.69 Mb/s down
10.86 Mb/s up

Fibre Cast 300 Mb/s taken in same room as router
250.14 Mb/s down
295.14 Mb/s up
Surprised the upload speed is higher than download speed - tried several times and the readings are very similar?

Trying outside where I want decent wifi
8.80 M/bs down only, no upload speed with a message that wifi is unstable.
But better than VM where I had nothing.

In my eyes a big improvement especially with upload. Hopefully Mrs JiaB's next video upload will be less tortuous.
Got a way to go yet and I need to repair myself before going any further!

While I still need to try the new router in what maybe a better location (more central in home) curious to know if other routers would offer any advantage?

HAGWE all :)

[brigant]

After seeing all this I would get rid of wife. Less complicated

[Captain Morgan]

All not lost though, wifi through the house is much improved and I'm getting a bit of wifi at the back of the house now - not a lot so I definitely need to try these WAP's. However to do this I understand I need to set the router in AP mode, no idea on that but according to TP-Link this will have to be done by the provider. Waiting to hear back from him, also want to know if I can use an alternative router - Captain Morgan, I assume there may be better options?

Some confusion.

It is the deco m5’s that need to go into accesspoint mode not the isp ‘box’

Link to deco m5 manual & accesspoint page already in post #21. Let me know if it needs some clarification.


You want to turn off wifi on the new isp hub when you connect the deco m5’s.

Has the isp told you you have no admin access to the new hub?
If not what indicates you needed to ask them to make changes?

I’d add the first deco on the long ethernet cable get that central & then try the other two wirelessly they might be acceptable in the ‘extreme’ locations either side leaving the wife to upload from the central area. Got to be worth trying before letting small children loose with power tools & draw lines under the house.

[Captain Morgan]

At present you have two units the ont that is like the modem & the hub which is you aio (all in one) firewall/router/switch/accesspoint, when you introduce the m5s they take over accesspoint duty so that function on the aio hub needs to be disabled.

This might help put some meat on the bones.
https://uk.pcmag.com/networking/1362...the-difference

[jacinabox]

Yes, you're right Captain, it's me that's got it all wrong!
The ISP is going to wonder what I'm babbling about when he reads his emails.

I've got an instruction leaflet with the router that tells me how to gain admin access - so, nothing denied there.

Think I've somehow muddled up how to operate the Deco's with the old VM hub where I 'think' the hub would have configured in modem mode...I've confused that with having to do something similar with the new router.

I need to sit down and properly understand all the advice and info I've been given so far - it's obvious I haven't got a grip on it at all!
Also need to fix myself, down to one working arm so an enforced break from all this will be good all round.

As always; Captain, thank you. No harm done other than make myself seem a clown!!




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[Captain Morgan]

Glad you haven’t pranged yourself to badly.


Okay if the isp does allow admin access that’s great, if they allow you to use your own router potentially even better?

You could just disconnect there box & just use the deco’s but you would need the isp to confirm the username/password & log in type. Just a thought.


Also I forgot to say that to save keep changing wifi ssid/passwords on the iPad, tv’s etc, you can change it on the deco’s to be the same as the ssid/password on the current isp box.

The idea is save the number of devices / times you change the details on the clients & it makes it easy to swap in & out devices when your testing etc.

Here’s the instructions from tp link.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/1591/



Edit:
Just for the avoidance of confusion each router box generally has three username / password sets.

1, The routers admin portal - I suspect this is the one on the paper you mentioned, it allows you to log into the box it’s self & make administration / configuration changes to the box.

2, the wifi username & password, this is referred to as the SSID/password, the combination you enter on clients to access wifi.

3, the isp line username & password + the authentication type, this is provided by the isp if they support you using your own router box thing.

[jacinabox]

Thanks for the TP-Link Captain.

Just when I thought I'd got my head around all this stuff, I realise I'm nowhere near!

Yesterday I discovered this ONT serves more than what I thought to be a simple connection for the fibre cable...it does more.

The new set-up is better in terms of coverage in the house, but to get a decent outside signal is going to involve installing the Deco's.
We'll discover how much better uploading is when wife has another video ready (it'll be a while) Upload speeds are hugely better than VM's so fingers crossed.

It's going to be my winter project, so no great rush to have it all sorted out. I do need to properly understand what I'm doing - it's all very alien to me!

If I do get stuck I'll drop you a message if I can rather than keep dragging this up.

Again, I hugely appreciate your advice and words of wisdom :)

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