I've just had a request from one of my team to book a holiday at the end of August next year.
I can't immediately see a problem with this but he's only been with us for four months and joined the team with about 6 weeks pre-booked holiday that we've had to accommodate.
August is always a tricky month because everyone with kids wants the time off, including me, and it can be a struggle to book freelancers to cover.
I can't help feeling slightly irritated by the request, and more so when I asked why he wanted to book one week's holiday so far in advance and was told his partner had found the perfect holiday cottage and it was cheaper at the end of August.
Am I being irrational and grumpy or is it a bit much to expect a newish employer to allow holiday bookings one year in advance? My gut says to tell him I can't approve it so far ahead not knowing what next year's production schedule looks like. But my inner good guy says, let him book it, although I might regret it later.
Any advice welcome.
Do you think he will be a good team member and stay with you...if the answer is Yes then agree.
I have struggled to get a week off next January for my 60th...i would have walked if they hadn't and they can't fill my vacancy as the last time someone left it took three months and a £2000 bonus to get someone in.
If the option to book holiday is there then it’s first come first serve I’d say. At least you know he’s planning on hanging around. If the holiday books aren’t open yet he can resubmit when they’re open.
I don’t think I can book holiday that far out using Workday but I’ve never tried.
Does he have to submit it to you or through a proper HR system?
I’d be telling him that I was not accepting summer holiday requests before 1st December and would be ensuring the entire team knew that.
Emphasise that they are requests not demands
My experience was always first come, first served - if no contrary policies in place let him have it. Only 1 week, after all.
He may have come from somewhere where this wasn't unusual, don't be irritated!
I'd approve it.
Better to have employees organising themselves in advance than giving as little notice as possible.
Plus its cheaper to book that far ahead and in the current climate thats understandable.
Child free employees shouldn't have to book their holidays and breaks around other peoples children.
Last edited by verv; 12th September 2022 at 10:56.
>>Am I being irrational and grumpy
Yes.
Giving you almost a year's notice has to be good, surely?
You can plan ahead with 11 months notice.
I see zero problem here.
Maybe you have other issues with him as an employee?
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
We don't know that he has children.Originally Posted by verv
Is that a Typo?
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Yes it was, SHOULDNT was meant.
"August is always a tricky month because everyone with kids wants the time off, including me, and it can be a struggle to book freelancers to cover."
But where is the threshold for booking? 6m before? 12m before? 18m before?
I have a sense that this employee is jumping the gun on what is sensible. Unfortunately, it sounds like there is no set limit in this company/team. Maybe never needed one before now.
I’m sure we have all worked in companies or teams where there are one (or two) who get in super-early with a list of ‘holiday weeks’, and are generally intransigent on them.
Plenty of us without kids have made concessions to employees with kids - but I’ve found that so many take advantage of it and it becomes their birthright, almost………….. “But - we always have the first two weeks of August”.
Assuming the books are open that far in advance then yes he/she should have it. As others have said, first come first serve.
I agree with this. It’s hardly representative of a good team player if they’re going to book up all the prime leave spots. Christmas Day in 5 years time??? Just say you aren’t planning coverage yet.
I've got team member that does this, books her holidays more than a year in advance as she has a place in Spain and timeshare in the Carribean so goes there each year as you books flights using rewrd points as soon as the flights are released.
The first time she did this I was new to the organisation so checked with HR who told me that there was nothing in the Annual Leave policies to prevent this so no reason why she couldn't do it if she was that organised, so it's worth checking with your HR team to see what your company policies are.
As it doesn't sound like you have an established process in place for requesting and booking leave and he's effectively giving you 11 months notice then I don't see how you can refuse it, and neither should you in my opinion. It sounds like you could do with a simple process being in place and I'm amazed this scenario hasn't cropped up before. All this stuff about you deciding whether he's going to be a good employee or a team player is utter horse sh*t. Why should it be up to you to make those impossible, highly subjective appraisals?
Take the bits that have worked for you up to this point and turn it into a very simple process with dates and approval points. Communicate it to the workforce with a start date and it's job done.
All the prime leave spots? He's asked for one week in a year's time. What's he meant to do, wait for the company to tell him he can submit a leave request? When might that be? January? July? If there's no process in place then he has every right to request the leave. If there's no process in place the employer is on a sticky wicket refusing it. HR advice will tell you that.
You can bet your bottom dollar he'd then be emailing his request at 00:01 on the 1st December. When I worked for a large corporation the same old faces had all the prime spots booked year on year, they put a huge amount of effort in organising their breaks (which isn't a bad thing per se), but as my immediate line manager used to say "If only they'd put as much effort and thought into their actual job there wouldn't be any issues".
Eh? I meant we didn't know whether the employee had kids.
You said he should be given time off then, contradictorily, employees with children should be given precedence.
Seems due to a typo anyway...
Whether the employee has kids is irrelevant unless there's a written policy that says people with kids get first pick of school holidays. I've never heard of that being a thing in thirty years.
Me neither.
I can’t believe you are in two minds. Did you make it a condition in his contract of employment that he couldn’t take August as vacation?
Just, approve the vacation. You will just leave a sour taste if you question him knowing full well you will approve it in the end.
It his not the employees problem and he has given you more than enough notice. How can he plan for a vacation if you provide uncertainty?
If anyone hassled me over vacation like that l would be looking to move on.
Wouldn't have thought it would be legal anyway.
I have on occasion booked vacation 12 months in advance, because 'er indoors likes to book holidays (cruises usually) on that sort of timescale. I'd say that if you don't actually have a rule about it then you should allow it this time, but if it's sufficiently irritating instate a maximum duration for future requests and make sure everyone's aware of it.
It’s not unusual to book a holiday 12-18mths in advance these days. Many holidays being advertised already for 2024, and the good ones generally go quickly.
If your employee is organised enough to give you plenty notice then I can’t see that being anything other than a good thing.
Completely irrelevant what effort they put into their jobs, thats a different matter for HR to deal with. If those employees are using the leave booking system in line with company policy its up to other employees to beat them to the slots.
In my last job one lass always booked the remainder of August bank holiday week, she'd be waiting outside the foremans office on the day the following years books were opened. A few people whined every year that she had the slot again but going to the foremans office before her was too much effort for them. Early bird and all that.
Agree with this. That is a lot of time to plan for him being off if needed. Some teams manage busy times as a team so if that is something you have done in the past that needs to continue but if not, as above.
What about fairness to the other team members? Will granting his request put other people out? I think it could open up a can of worms.
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I would say great planning on his behalf.
Approve because its not really any of your business and no one should have to explain why they are taking holiday.
This thread is a real head-shaker. The OP is unhappy with oodles and oodles of notice, even though the employee seems to have followed protocol and plans to stick around, and a bunch of people are seemingly very bitter at anyone more organised than them. Unless there's a policy or some written guidance around booking holiday I can't see how this employee has done anything unfair or bad.
Whether employees have kids or not matters not a jot. It's a choice to spawn, and you just have to get yourselves organised if you want the "prime leave spots".
So how can anything ever be booked if you can't book something in case somebody else wants it?
Who is the OP, Ebeneezer Scrooge? Oh wait even he gave his staff Christmas day off!
He's asked for one week, not 'All the prime leave spots', that would be a different matter.
The employee is organised and requested holiday with loads of notice. What does it say about an employer that can't work with that kind of notice?
M
Last edited by snowman; 12th September 2022 at 12:10.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I used to have a lady who worked for me that did the same, but she was an outstanding team member, so I didn't mind at all.
Speaking clinically he is entitled to the holiday, and it sounds like there is the capacity to accept it, so I would let him have it. However, it sounds like you're not entirely happy with his performance, so maybe this is the area to address.
Can always rely on TZ for a lively debate
Some good points raised:
1. He does have kids, similar age to mine.
2. I have no problem with him at all. He's a good worker, has qualified knowledge of the subject matter and is a likeable character so no issues there.
3. We have a proper booking system but I have to approve any holiday requests through the system - he was sounding out the possibility before placing the request.
4. We're only a small team within a larger team so I do have to balance our work commitments based on the schedule, which as I say, isn't available for 2023 yet, but will be with us in the next few weeks.
5. Not sure if there is any company policy on how far in advance holidays can be booked because it's never been an issue before. It's always been something sorted out around Easter time, not for any particular reason, it's just how it's happened.
6. The week in question is often when I've taken the family holiday to avoid clashing with the wider team and deadlines. As it happens, the boy is due to get GCSE results next year so we were thinking of booking earlier dates so he would be home to collect the results.
7. I suppose my irritation is based in part on the irrational notion that he's laying his towel on a sunbed, 12 months in advance. However, as others have said, it gives me nearly a year to plan for his absence, and it's ony 1 week.
8. I'm ony jealous that he has a hyper-organised partner who can book holidays 12 months in advance. We're very much the opposite and do all our stuff last minute in a flurry of mild panic
In summary, I've had a word with myself and it would be stupid to say no. He might find the system won't let him book anyway as he's already bought more holiday time this year to cover his pre-booked jaunts.
As usual, thanks to the TZ hive mind.
I think you've landed on the right answer there :)
Unless the request contradicts Policy, tough. No can of worms to be opened. The fairness is directed and assured by the Policy so everyone has the same potential to request leave with the same notice and under the same conditions. If they choose not to do that, tough.
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Agreed.
Some people work in utilities and services and have to work Christmas Day. This was an example to show it’s selfish to book up leave that far in advance without a policy or consultation.
Actually, we're a tight-knit team and observe consideration for others when making decisions that might affect them.
Company policy is one thing, and we can all follow the rule book when it suits us, but the rule book doesn't always get it right.
It was a typo.
I dont know whether or not the asker has kids, but one of the reasons given for potentially knocking him back was that the OP and colleagues had kids, which should be irrelevant.
See my post above yours.
I just said that August was tricky as lots of people with kids want the time off, including the person in question and me. It was never given as a reason to knock him back.
Personally I think someone being organised and courteous enough to book their holidays so far in advance is commendable. I'm never that organised
My first recourse would be to check company policy. If there is nothing specific saying he can't do this and nobody else has booked leave over that period, then you should absolutely approve it. The same policy applies to all - so anyone can book their holidays this far in advance, they have just chosen not to. That's not your fault or this chaps.
The issue I can see from a lack of policy or no clarity in the policy, is that employees become increasingly aggressive in how early they book their holidays, but then whatever the cutoff there will always be those who book as soon as available and loads who wait until last minute.
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Your team sounds like mine. Very small. Lots of give and take.
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What's the policy for messing about online during working hours 😂
You were miffed that he’d got in before you did on the week that you wanted.
Last edited by Jon Kenney; 12th September 2022 at 13:06.
I’d assume that would actually be discriminatory in employment law?
And the rest of point 6. says …?
I've historically taken the last two weeks in August to minimise disruption, as mentioned.
I've acknowledged why I felt initial irritation at the request.
What's your point?
Last edited by Onelasttime; 12th September 2022 at 13:57.
It is still a ‘request’ though, and it is up to the manager - to ……… manage.
In small groups without an over-riding company policy - it is easy to manage, until someone comes in and starts being selfish.
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It’s called managing.
There is a problem with first-come principles, especially for popular weeks like Xmas or August in just this, people will end up booking years in advance and it becomes a lottery anyway and a nightmare to manage.
We run a spreadsheet for every year - for Xmas dates are put in around now. The understanding is that if you book prime weeks (Xmas/NY or the cheap flight weeks in Summer) one year, you might be refused those particular weeks the following year (and conversely if you work them you have priority the following year). No idea what other company policies say, but ours definitely states that specific leave dates are allowed only if operational staffing considerations are met.
So far I don't think there's been a problem, because everyone understands the principle and doesnt insist on the same periods every year. Where they have to (for "once in a lifetime" trips etc) it's always worked out ok.
Good if you can operate a system where no-one takes the piss. Sadly - people are selfish twats and often get coerced by their partners to ‘just tell them!’………..
I’ve usually been the one to be flexible with my back-to-back on rotas, but soon you realise that you are being taken a loan of. It is never reciprocated, only taken as being ‘the norm’.
As above. Unless there is space, the answer is no and company policy backs that up.
If anyone tries to sneak in early, then EVERYONE gets asked for their dates before it's approved (or not).
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