Reply With QuoteThe right decision Onelasttime
No it's not, you've missed my point. Someone asks to book time off, you say not yet in case someone else wants to book it. That's not managing, it means no-one can ever book time off. Like ringing to book a table at a restaurant, and they say you can't in case someone else rings up later.Originally Posted by blackal
The right decision Onelasttime
no……….. you have gone for the most extreme, obtuse understanding - and likened it to booking a table.
To take your first sentence - where in your ‘system’ is there a check for people taking the piss?
My suggestion is “I am taking requests on 1st December (say) - once all team members are aware of that date. Please remember it is a ‘request’ not a ‘statement’………….”
Yup! Someone has to be arbiter, and apply a fair policy.
And that is the team leader or manager.
This is basically what I do. I send out reminders through the year otherwise you just end up with a pile of requests in May/June and another pile in October/November.
Everywhere I have worked the books open on a certain date and requests can be made until a certain date, usually a year later. Basically the same thing as you saying "I am taking requests on 1st December..." etc.
So in this instance the first person that comes to you and requests the week commencing 23rd August (say) should have it reserved before anyone else, with the caveat that because of unforeseen work circumstances or absences you may have to later cancel it of course.
Nothing to do with "taking the piss". The first person who asks, should have first dibs.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 12th September 2022 at 17:22.
Yes, agreed - as long as a sensible date is chosen and promulgated.
With the proviso that someone ‘requesting’ Easter school hols, summer school hols and mid-term hols might not get them all no matter if they fire in the request at 00:01 on the date.
THAT is managing.
Indeed that would be taking the piss. But the case in question the OP referred to was one week in August.
It was, but most of our responses were to the general MO that a team/group/manager should have. (I think)
Or at least mine were, and I think were obvious.
Fair enough, but still first come first served in my opinion.
He’s being organised. Nothing wrong with that. If the rest of the team can’t get their shit together then it’s their loss if he gets in first unless you have a policy that means last in get last dibs on leave which would be pretty shit for employees.
Give him the holiday and encourage the others to get sorted too.
You've clearly not read all of the thread but thanks for your valuable input. And swearing in the G&D. Tut tut!
poor policy where ‘first dibs’ prevails………..
A fair policy ultimately should work best, and at least garner the respect of the team in general.
The chancers will always resent it, but it can be a good way of identifying them………….
If there was ever an ideal advert promoting self employment this thread is it.
Jeez! Now- there is a valid point!
I’ve always worked on the basis of “I have the whole team to keep happy, not just you” - and usually that works.
But if you don’t like that aspect of a manager’s role, or get the shitty end of the stick again and again - then self-employement can be the ideal solution. I used to block off days/weekends/weeks with my regular contractor- didn’t stop them offering, but they knew that cancelling my time off was up to me, and didn’t expect me to go.
When I accepted a new job I was asked about leave which would be accepted if it was already booked and I have proof. I only had provisional dates in mind but nothing booked and crossed my fingers the half term dates would be available. Luckily, there’s only a few parents on the team and everyone else is free and single, lucky them.
At a previous employer, if everyone wanted time off at the same time, it was names in a hat.
Try running a business when all the staff are self employed,your lucky if you get a weeks notice sometimes.
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Agreed. If someone was booking annual leave simply to reserve the weeks then I would be less supportive, but holidays are on sale and this employee is right to seek the employer's approval before making a financial commitment. I do the same.
Agreed,I can’t see anything wrong in booking in advance
You came on to a watch forum to ask whether one of your new employees should be able to take a holiday that they were proactively booking 11 months in advance.
If the holiday request was for September, when I assume you don't usually take your family holiday, you wouldn't have come on to a watch forum to ask the same question.
You were at odds whether to authorise it because it clashed with your plans, but they got there first, and you are/were miffed about it... I get it.
That's my point.
Now, THIS is a proper, honest answer! Step back and rethink. Good for you. The type of boss/employer everybody should have.Can always rely on TZ for a lively debate
Some good points raised:
1. He does have kids, similar age to mine.
2. I have no problem with him at all. He's a good worker, has qualified knowledge of the subject matter and is a likeable character so no issues there.
3. We have a proper booking system but I have to approve any holiday requests through the system - he was sounding out the possibility before placing the request.
4. We're only a small team within a larger team so I do have to balance our work commitments based on the schedule, which as I say, isn't available for 2023 yet, but will be with us in the next few weeks.
5. Not sure if there is any company policy on how far in advance holidays can be booked because it's never been an issue before. It's always been something sorted out around Easter time, not for any particular reason, it's just how it's happened.
6. The week in question is often when I've taken the family holiday to avoid clashing with the wider team and deadlines. As it happens, the boy is due to get GCSE results next year so we were thinking of booking earlier dates so he would be home to collect the results.
7. I suppose my irritation is based in part on the irrational notion that he's laying his towel on a sunbed, 12 months in advance. However, as others have said, it gives me nearly a year to plan for his absence, and it's ony 1 week.
8. I'm ony jealous that he has a hyper-organised partner who can book holidays 12 months in advance. We're very much the opposite and do all our stuff last minute in a flurry of mild panic
In summary, I've had a word with myself and it would be stupid to say no. He might find the system won't let him book anyway as he's already bought more holiday time this year to cover his pre-booked jaunts.
As usual, thanks to the TZ hive mind.
Great conclusion and good management OP
So you’d expect your employer’s needs to take precedence over that of your family?
And never have a holiday!
But you're wrong. If you read my OP I wasn't asking if they should be able to, I was asking if my concerns/irritation about him booking so far in advance were justified or not. Then I gave a list of reasons why I might be irritated/concerned.
Our holiday plans next year don't clash so that wasn't the main issue. It was more about fitting things around the wider team, especially as I don't have next year's production schedule and don't know what holiday plans anyone else has.
But I hear you and respect your right to make the point.
No of course not Dave, I generally worked in large organisations where cancelled leave was extremely rare. But I should imagine that, for example, in a very small highly specialised company where only two people could do a vital job, one had leave booked and the other was sick and it would mean a huge contract lost or similar then cancelled leave has to be looked at.
Also my wife was a nurse, and cancelled leave was very common due to a combination of bare minimum staff to begin with and very high sickness rates.
That’s the point of a manager. All employees are entitled to put in requests. It’s the mangers job to make sure it’s handled fairly.
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Like the first person to ask for a day off gets it before the second or third?
In the rare cases I’ve known this happen the company has always at a minimum covered the cost of the holiday, any associated incidental costs & any uplift for rebooking.
In on instance they covered the cost of the holiday as the chaps wife could not change her travel plans & paid for a second holiday the next year.
That's only fair if time off is granted then rescinded, well done to your company.
This is exactly the reason I want to get out of paid employment ASAP
I find this stuff very stressful
I'd invite the others in the team to raise their holiday requests for next year (if they have any) before deciding. Just because someone asks first doesn't mean they should get 1st dibs, but YMMV.
[I haven't read through the thread, my Spidey sense for endless drivel was tingling.]
If an employer told me I couldn’t take time off when I’d given ample notice, I’d go work elsewhere.
Lots of valid replies in here - I worked in recruitment for 20+ years and the number 1 reason people leave jobs is due to bad bosses (not saying you are) which is then closely followed especially in this day and age by benefits (holiday is a big one) money is becoming less and less a dominant factor in staying in roles
in fact on a recent survey that my old firm completed showed companies now more than ever need to look at ways to entice people other than just money
flexible working, free food, wellness perks, unlimited holiday, 4 day week, early finish, childcare support all ranked higher than pay as things employees want
Its an archaic approach to get wound up by someone elses holiday being booked in advance in my view and personally I think you should be applauding someone who is organised and planning there time so you can work around that with plenty of notice, nothing worse when year end approaches and everyone is fighting to take unused holiday
Like others have said if any boss told me I couldnt take my holiday allowance, time off for childcare etc Id be out the door - ultimately how would you feel if you asked the same question and your boss queried it?
Last edited by R0bertb00th; 13th September 2022 at 14:11.
He’s entitled to his holidays .
I book my 4 weeks holiday(all of August ) on January 2nd the earliest day I can.
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Exactly because your policy and practices enable that so why wouldn't you. I have all of my leave up to end of August 2023 submitted and agreed now because I'm 'allowed' to do that.
And how would one decide who was most deserving? FC, FS is the only fair way to do it.
If you're talking about covering specific periods (eg Bank Holidays or Xmas/New Year period), then a policy (not a random decision) is required.
For a random week in a 6-8 week period, first dibs is ABSOLUTELY who gets it.
If you're a manager, let us all know where you work and we'll put it on the list...
M
Last edited by snowman; 13th September 2022 at 18:40.
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