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Thread: What constitutes Villainous Behaviour in H & V?

  1. #1
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    What constitutes Villainous Behaviour in H & V?

    I wanted to gauge perceptions on what you might class as a villain after buying a watch from the Sales Corner.

    This person has a pretty good reputation so far so I am mindful of not trashing that needlessly. Iíll say up front this is not about Wileeeeeey who I bought a Sub from this week.

    This is shall we say a watch that is in excess of £1000 and less than £5000. I messaged the seller with some questions, three messages. All responded to quickly.

    I then made an offer and followed it up a couple of days later. We agreed a price and payment was made. I sent a screenshot of the payment and requested confirmation that he had received it and the tracking number for shipping. No quick reply although I could see the seller was online. Tracking info was provided later in the day which I thought was fair enough.

    The watch arrived everything present except the purchase receipt and hang tag. Also noticed a small strap changing mark on the outside of the 7 oíclock lug. Not disclosed and not visible in the original photos. If it was underneath I wouldnít have been bothered. Now Iíve seen it, I canít unsee it.

    I PMíd the Seller saying that I am missing the purchase receipt and hang tag. No reply. Can see heís been online. Couple of days later I got a reply saying put them under some papers and forgot about them, in the post tonight.

    Nothing arrived in the three days that have gone. When I asked how he had posted them. I got a reply saying that he had given it to the postal dept at work and he didnít know if it was first or second. Either way it doesnít sound like itís tracked.

    I have sent another PM saying that I am beginning to lose faith in what he is saying and I would like to return the watch on the grounds that I would not have bought it without the purchase receipt and hang tag. I fully expected a reply blaming Royal Mail. I live in a small village with a limited number of Postman that have worked the area for years. I cannot remember the last time I heard of anything going missing in the post around here. But I have heard nothing again. I can see that heís been online but I have not had a reply.

    The watch is now back in its box. I shall not touch it again until it is resolved.

    I am now away from home for a few days so if these items do show up in the post I wonít know until early next week. Although if it was posted second class you would expect inside of 72 hours right?

    Interested in peoples perceptions: am I right to call villain. Am I being overly picky?

  2. #2
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if the 'online status' is neccessarily valid - I suspect I appear permenantly 'online' as I have TZ open on several machines, 24hrs a day.

    BUT - I would say that his attitude has changed once the sale was made, and if you are certain that the mark on the lug is missing from the photos advertised - then he has either decided not to list marks on the watch, or the photo is from an earlier time. Either way is a crap attitude.

    You've asked for a refund, wait and see what the response (if any) is - but it sounds like an unsatisfactory deal.

  3. #3
    Master Thom4711's Avatar
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    I think this is useful, negative feedback for the forum to help guide us on who is worth dealing with. I'd post it in h&v to let everyone else make their minds up.

  4. #4
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I have TZ open on several machines, 24hrs a day.
    Have you spoken to anybody about this ? Maybe they could help you "get a life"...?
    Last edited by reggie747; 5th August 2022 at 10:24.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I'm not sure if the 'online status' is neccessarily valid - I suspect I appear permenantly 'online' as I have TZ open on several machines, 24hrs a day.
    Presumably with UPS backup.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I'm not sure if the 'online status' is neccessarily valid - I suspect I appear permenantly 'online' as I have TZ open on several machines, 24hrs a day.

    BUT - I would say that his attitude has changed once the sale was made, and if you are certain that the mark on the lug is missing from the photos advertised - then he has either decided not to list marks on the watch, or the photo is from an earlier time. Either way is a crap attitude.

    You've asked for a refund, wait and see what the response (if any) is - but it sounds like an unsatisfactory deal.
    Letís clarify that online status:

    When I look on Tapatalk and you look at the users involved in a PM it shows when they were last seen. So I could see that he had been active after the PM was sent. In which case there would be a notification to show youíve got a new message either in Tapatalk or on a computer. So I am suggesting that he has ignored the PMs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    None of that would bother me unduly, you canít wear a hang tag or an original receipt and some wear and tear is to be expected on a second hand watch bought from a private sale. I donít see any legal reason why you should expect the seller to offer a refund or why he should be labelled a villain for not doing so. Caveat emptor.

  8. #8
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Have you spoken to anybody about this ? Maybe they could help you "get a life"...?
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    None of that would bother me unduly, you canít wear a hang tag or an original receipt and some wear and tear is to be expected on a second hand watch bought from a private sale. I donít see any legal reason why you should expect the seller to offer a refund or why he should be labelled a villain for not doing so. Caveat emptor.
    If SC advert said hang tag/receipt to be included then they should be.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by NigeG View Post
    Letís clarify that online status:

    When I look on Tapatalk and you look at the users involved in a PM it shows when they were last seen. So I could see that he had been active after the PM was sent. In which case there would be a notification to show youíve got a new message either in Tapatalk or on a computer. So I am suggesting that he has ignored the PMs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    One of the 'forum stalwarts' will have already worked out which recent sale of a £1-5k watch included a sales receipt and hang tag, together with a missing photo of the damaged lug and details of when he bought it from eBay. As they will be along shortly to link it, you may as well name the seller and let everyone make their own mind up.

    Some people think there is a specific temperature when to walk your dog and those who trott them out one degree above that are villians, so only your opinion matters whether or not the seller is or isn't.

  11. #11
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Presumably with UPS backup.
    Second of the day - you're on a roll.

  12. #12
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Second of the day - you're on a roll.
    Ya reckon ?? I think he might have wind...


  13. #13
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    Out of interest - did the sales post show the receipt and hang tag in a picture?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Ya reckon ?? I think he might have wind...

    Careful, youíll have palpitations.

  15. #15
    OP,I don't really understand your thread, if you are not happy with the transaction leave appropriate feedback in H&V, if the seller chooses to defend it, it's his choice

  16. #16
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    OP,I don't really understand your thread, if you are not happy with the transaction leave appropriate feedback in H&V, if the seller chooses to defend it, it's his choice
    This never ends well and usually for both parties.
    Mind, I donít see this one ending well eitherÖ
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  17. #17
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    Working in a large company I've seen delays to post which I hadn't anticipated.
    Such as post only being processed t specific times and it might be the end of the day then collected by Royal Mail or even taken to a postbox and posted the following day.
    I personally wouldn't have thought to send a receipt and hangtag tracked. So its possible if it wasn't labelled "1st Class" it is corporate policy to send 2nd class and you could be looking at up to 5 days when you add all that together.

  18. #18
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    Would you really not have bought it without the receipt/hang-tag?

    fwiw I rarely even keep my receipts, only if they are packed in the box at point of purchase, then discovered later when I decide to flip whatever it is.
    A receipt is useless to anyone other than the original buyer, other than to marginally back up the authenticity of the watch. Even if it's still under warranty, the guarantee card should sort that out.

    Hang-Tag... it looks nice on photo's if you're pushing a "full set" for sale, but really serves no purpose to my knowledge. Some are bar-coded, but that's for the AD's benefit, not the buyer.


    I can't think of a single instance where the lack of those things would be a deal-breaker, so with that in mind then no this wouldn't come under "villainous behaviour".
    Broken promises to post them onwards, mildly annoying but probably just a case of being disorganised which I could never (with a straight face) get angry about, I'm the worlds worst. If they have been promised then sit tight, they're coming. Curious as to why the big rush?

    How bad is the strap-changing mark? Easy to overlook or intentionally hidden?

  19. #19
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    We need pics of the mark before we decide whether to pitchfork or not.

  20. #20
    Craftsman SydR's Avatar
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    Genuine question.

    Is actually using the postal department at work for personal mail appropriate?

  21. #21
    Simply put, if the description doesn't match the item. You're well within your rights to be unhappy.

    I returned a GWG 2000 which have a dent in the bezel, which you couldn't see clearly in any of the photos and wasn't mentioned in the description.

    That said, I have had post go missing before and arrive very late (7+ days).

  22. #22
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    Genuine question.

    Is actually using the postal department at work for personal mail appropriate?
    I think with permission, yes, my company has a DPD account and Iíve used it a few times for parcels with permission and a offer to pay.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  23. #23
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    I bought a phone with the promise of the purchase receipt for the warranty from here and never received the receipt turned out it was sold by a well known shyster who has now disappeared Part from replying to wanted ads

  24. #24
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    Genuine question.

    Is actually using the postal department at work for personal mail appropriate?
    Like 'borrowing' a couple of pens and a stapler from office supplies, I think it's probably morally ambiguous but generally acceptable.

    It would be classed as taking the pi55 if you were using it to run a mail order business, but this isn't the case here.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by barreti View Post
    Working in a large company I've seen delays to post which I hadn't anticipated.
    Such as post only being processed t specific times and it might be the end of the day then collected by Royal Mail or even taken to a postbox and posted the following day.
    I personally wouldn't have thought to send a receipt and hangtag tracked. So its possible if it wasn't labelled "1st Class" it is corporate policy to send 2nd class and you could be looking at up to 5 days when you add all that together.
    Fair enough. Maybe Iím being unreasonable because if the boot was on the other foot I would be replying to the incoming PM as soon as I saw it. Or maybe ringing up. The seller has my phone number, he didnít send me his.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevkojak View Post
    Would you really not have bought it without the receipt/hang-tag?

    fwiw I rarely even keep my receipts, only if they are packed in the box at point of purchase, then discovered later when I decide to flip whatever it is.
    A receipt is useless to anyone other than the original buyer, other than to marginally back up the authenticity of the watch. Even if it's still under warranty, the guarantee card should sort that out.

    Hang-Tag... it looks nice on photo's if you're pushing a "full set" for sale, but really serves no purpose to my knowledge. Some are bar-coded, but that's for the AD's benefit, not the buyer.


    I can't think of a single instance where the lack of those things would be a deal-breaker, so with that in mind then no this wouldn't come under "villainous behaviour".
    Broken promises to post them onwards, mildly annoying but probably just a case of being disorganised which I could never (with a straight face) get angry about, I'm the worlds worst. If they have been promised then sit tight, they're coming. Curious as to why the big rush?

    How bad is the strap-changing mark? Easy to overlook or intentionally hidden?
    Itís not a rare watch, plenty have appeared on SC. I asked in a PM if there was any transport coffin, hang tag and purchase receipt. His reply said no transport coffin but yes to both of the others. If he had said no I donít have them I would have moved on and waited for another to come up. Each to their own.

    I am not angry about it, disappointed sure but not angry. Mildly peeved that someone chooses to ignore communications asking reasonable questions. As I said above; I would be all over it if it was the other way around.

    No big rush; just wanted it sorting, ideally before yesterday as Iím away for a long weekend now.

    I have to wait until I get home now to see if I can get a picture of the lug.

  26. #26
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    Was it a Rolex?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    We need pics of the mark before we decide whether to pitchfork or not.
    Agreed. I`m making the assumption that the watch is a Rolex and I`ll speculate that the scratch is in a polished section of the case. If so it's an easy job to have it polished out or polish it out yourself*. If the watch was a good buy I don't see this as a deal-breaker. As for the sales receipt, I fail to see how that adds value to the package and it could be argued that it should stay with the original buyer. Owing to the perverse nature of the game, the hangtag has some value but that's more important to some than others, personally I don`t think I`d be bothered provided the watch was OK.

    The seller could've been more communicative but I`m struggling to label him as a villain based on what's been posted on this thread.

    * Scratches are like a ploughed field on a micro scale, use the correct technique to remove the metal that's been ploughed up (a levelling process) and the scratch will almost disappear. Further careful work will remove all traces, especially on a curved surface. It isn`t rocket science but there's a right way to do it. Marks on a grained/brushed surface are a whole lot harder to rectify.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    We need pics of the mark before we decide whether to pitchfork or not.
    Not disclosed and not visible in the original photos. If it was underneath I wouldnít have been bothered. Now Iíve seen it, I canít unsee it.

    I PMíd the Seller saying that I am missing the purchase receipt and hang tag. No reply.
    Did you not also raise the issue of the mark to the seller?


    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  29. #29
    OP- Was the receipt and hang-tag part of the deal or pictured/specifically mentioned?

    If so then fair enough but would i want a refundÖ.probably not.

  30. #30
    Master John Wall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Was it a Rolex?
    For less than £5k🤔

  31. #31
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    What constitutes Villainous Behaviour in H & V?

    I believe this thread, albeit subconsciously, is a way to pressure the seller to respond. The deal, whilst not villainous, is never the less tainted and the OP wants the matter resolved. Until then an expensive watch cannot be enjoyed.

    Unfortunately the seller is being less than helpful. So the simple answer is for the seller to answer the OPs messages and thus keeping his dirty laundry out of the sight of public.

    But should he be named? OP, how do you feel and do you want others to feel the same?

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    For less than £5kūü§Ē
    W/o the hang tag, maybe.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    W/o the hang tag, maybe.
    😂😂👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

  34. #34
    Craftsman petay993's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    For less than £5k樂
    Tudor I reckon, probs a '58

  35. #35
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    In the old days. There was the gentleman's 3 day return policy agreement.

    Not disclosing problems got you banned from the sales corner

    Mention 3 day return policy today and people don't believe in it. Bought as is.

    Seller should take the watch back or (if buyer agrees). Cover the cost of having the mark polished out.

    Tag and receipt - what sort of value do they have?

    DON

  36. #36
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONGinsler View Post
    In the old days. There was the gentleman's 3 day return policy agreement.

    Not disclosing problems got you banned from the sales corner

    Mention 3 day return policy today and people don't believe in it. Bought as is.

    Seller should take the watch back or (if buyer agrees). Cover the cost of having the mark polished out.

    Tag and receipt - what sort of value do they have?

    DON
    You only joined last year.

  37. #37
    Master Jon Kenney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    You only joined last year.
    With that username...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Kenney View Post
    With that username...
    InterestingÖwho can work out who they were.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    You only joined last year.
    Classic

  40. #40
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    Are fora like this, where sales can take place after negotiation, subject to Trades Description Act or whatever legislation applies these days, where descriptions can be held as a liability?

    Jim

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmcb View Post
    Are fora like this, where sales can take place after negotiation, subject to Trades Description Act or whatever legislation applies these days, where descriptions can be held as a liability?

    Jim
    Not really - itís a private sale between individuals, but the item should match its description and the person selling should have the right to sell it. Essentially back to buyer beware and all that it entails.

  42. #42
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Kenney View Post
    With that username...
    How are people joining these days, or in DONGinsler's case, rejoining with multiple accounts? Forum registration has been locked down for the last couple of years.

  43. #43

    What constitutes Villainous Behaviour in H & V?

    DONGinsler claims to be in Canada and is always consistent in his posts about this. Or just very carefulÖ

  44. #44
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    DONGinsler claims to be in Canada and is always consistent in his posts about this. Or just very carefulÖ
    No, I suspect he is from Toronto...the time of all his posts is consistent with this.

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    No, I suspect he is from Toronto...the time of all his posts is consistent with this.
    Never heard of anyone from Canada being banned, why might he rejoin with a different ID?

  46. #46
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    DONGinsler claims to be in Canada and is always consistent in his posts about this. Or just very carefulÖ
    I seem to recall he was in 2007 when he had his strap business and I bought a trio of his excellent Mini Panerais" from him for my Damasko.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansblix2001 View Post
    Not really - itís a private sale between individuals, but the item should match its description and the person selling should have the right to sell it. Essentially back to buyer beware and all that it entails.
    Thanks for that. Every day is a skool day.
    And what if it doesnít match the desc. What Ďritesí does a buyer have over a seller or vice versa I suppose.

    Jim

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    I seem to recall he was in 2007 when he had his strap business and I bought a trio of his excellent Mini Panerais" from him for my Damasko.
    But his join date is Jan 2021... All very confusing!

  49. #49
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    But his join date is Jan 2021... All very confusing!

    I bought them from his online store, not from here. I recall that Eddie had a purge of dormant/underused accounts that hadn't been posted from quite a while ago, Don's old account probably went then and he's reregistered, nothing more sinister than that I should imagine.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    I bought them from his online store, not from here. I recall that Eddie had a purge of dormant/underused accounts that hadn't been posted from quite a while ago, Don's old account probably went then and he's reregistered, nothing more sinister than that I should imagine.
    I agree Magirus! Could this be the Don Ginsler being discussed here??

    https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/f...-strap.162288/

    Jim

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