Would you spend £30k on a petrol car right now?

[Franky Four Fingers]

If people want to 'go green' by foregoing fossil fuels (the holier than thou EV brigade), then they need to give up fossil fuels completely...not just use fossil fuel elsewhere to cover for not using it here....

My Golf estate is on a 59 plate, I thought about changing it this month, but then decided having had it for 13 years and as I am getting well over 60mpg overall and over 80mpg on a long run... i am better off putting money into keeping it going, in dribs and drabs, than spunking a dollop in one go that then depreciates and some careless trolley driver in a car park can cause upset.

Its a step in the right direction surely?

[Kairos]

Its a step in the right direction surely?

The EV thing? No, it is just virtue signalling. The problem that nobody is addressing is the population of the Earth is simply too great. I grew up in the 60s, the world population was estimated at about 1.5 billion. In my lifetime that has risen to the current estimate of 7.5 billion, a 5 fold increase. Coupled to that increase is the demand for 'new stuff' by more and more of that population... mobile phones, cars, x-boxes, all the peripherals that are, frankly, unecessary for survival. Even household items - people can't be bothered to do the washing up and need a machine, that uses foul chemicals, to do the dishes for them. Fridges and freezers, TVs, computers, video recorders or whatever they are now (they have gone through about 4 iterations in the last decade or so... blue ray etc. That constant consumerism demand by an ever growing number of an ever growing population, that is what is doing the damage.... instead of changing your car every 5 years, keep it and keep it going, that is far more ecological, but it is bad for business to make stuff that lasts. Fashion, people being told they mustn't be seen in the same clothes, why? What is wrong with wearing a shirt more than a couple of times? I have shirts 30 years old that I still wear (and they still fit me!) TKMax, £5 shirts to wear once for a night out and then throw out... it is just wasteful and wrong, but the manufacturers want you to, so they tell you that is how you should live your life.... to feed their greed. And there is the crux of the matter, constant greed.

[Franky Four Fingers]

The EV thing? No, it is just virtue signalling. The problem that nobody is addressing is the population of the Earth is simply too great. I grew up in the 60s, the world population was estimated at about 1.5 billion. In my lifetime that has risen to the current estimate of 7.5 billion, a 5 fold increase. Coupled to that increase is the demand for 'new stuff' by more and more of that population... mobile phones, cars, x-boxes, all the peripherals that are, frankly, unecessary for survival. Even household items - people can't be bothered to do the washing up and need a machine, that uses foul chemicals, to do the dishes for them. Fridges and freezers, TVs, computers, video recorders or whatever they are now (they have gone through about 4 iterations in the last decade or so... blue ray etc. That constant consumerism demand by an ever growing number of an ever growing population, that is what is doing the damage.... instead of changing your car every 5 years, keep it and keep it going, that is far more ecological, but it is bad for business to make stuff that lasts. And there is the crux of the matter, constant greed.

I think its a case of what makes sense for the individual and for anyone wanting to do their “bit” When buying a car you have a few options, you either buy new and accept the depreciation, lease and still lose the money anyway or buy second hand or maintain an old clunker and just accept that one day you may have to stick your hand deep in to your pockets. There isn’t a right answer to it and calling anyone a virtue signaller is a bit silly as when most people start to seriously look into them it makes a lot of sense.

[craig1912]

I think its a case of what makes sense for the individual and for anyone wanting to do their “bit” When buying a car you have a few options, you either buy new and accept the depreciation, lease and still lose the money anyway or buy second hand or maintain an old clunker and just accept that one day you may have to stick your hand deep in to your pockets. There isn’t a right answer to it and calling anyone a virtue signaller is a bit silly as when most people start to seriously look into them it makes a lot of sense.

It may make sense at an individual level but it is not “greener”. Volvo said it the emissions from make img a pan EV compared to petrol was 70% higher and would take 9 years of driving before it became greener. That also doesn’t take into account the child labour in countries mining the raw materials to make batteries and the fact that the batteries are very difficult to recycle.
So yes by all means buy an EV if it suits your needs but don’t think you are doing anything for the planet.

[Franky Four Fingers]

It may make sense at an individual level but it is not “greener”. Volvo said it the emissions from make img a pan EV compared to petrol was 70% higher and would take 9 years of driving before it became greener. That also doesn’t take into account the child labour in countries mining the raw materials to make batteries and the fact that the batteries are very difficult to recycle.
So yes by all means buy an EV if it suits your needs but don’t think you are doing anything for the planet.

You missed out some important bits there, they also go on to say……The Swedish car maker said that over a car's lifetime the electric version will become greener overall, though this will only be achieved after covering between 30,000 and 68,400 miles - taking between four and nine years for the average UK motorist. It also goes on to say that is drastically reduced to 30k miles if using clean energy.
As i said…its a step in the right direction

[Dave+63]

That also doesn’t take into account the child labour in countries mining the raw materials to make batteries and the fact that the batteries are very difficult to recycle.

Do you have a mobile phone?

[Passenger]

The EV thing? No, it is just virtue signalling. The problem that nobody is addressing is the population of the Earth is simply too great. I grew up in the 60s, the world population was estimated at about 1.5 billion. In my lifetime that has risen to the current estimate of 7.5 billion, a 5 fold increase. Coupled to that increase is the demand for 'new stuff' by more and more of that population... mobile phones, cars, x-boxes, all the peripherals that are, frankly, unecessary for survival. Even household items - people can't be bothered to do the washing up and need a machine, that uses foul chemicals, to do the dishes for them. Fridges and freezers, TVs, computers, video recorders or whatever they are now (they have gone through about 4 iterations in the last decade or so... blue ray etc. That constant consumerism demand by an ever growing number of an ever growing population, that is what is doing the damage.... instead of changing your car every 5 years, keep it and keep it going, that is far more ecological, but it is bad for business to make stuff that lasts. Fashion, people being told they mustn't be seen in the same clothes, why? What is wrong with wearing a shirt more than a couple of times? I have shirts 30 years old that I still wear (and they still fit me!) TKMax, £5 shirts to wear once for a night out and then throw out... it is just wasteful and wrong, but the manufacturers want you to, so they tell you that is how you should live your life.... to feed their greed. And there is the crux of the matter, constant greed.

Well expressed...so much of the process...''the getting and spending'' if you like, seems to me to be consumption for it's own sake/profits...most of us already have an almost unbelievable, grotesque amount of stuff.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Well expressed...so much of the process...''the getting and spending'' if you like, seems to me to be consumption for it's own sake/profits...most of us already have an almost unbelievable, grotesque amount of stuff.

It may be well expressed but at some point he's felt the need to go out and buy and a 59 plate VW and is maintaining it, if he bought it new or secondhand its irrelevant…at some point he's changed his car. Why did he change it? Was it necessity…was it because he just wanted to change it….did he buy it new?
Unless youre walking around in shoes made of grass, living in a mud hut you constructed yourself and walking anywhere is just bluster.

[craig1912]

Do you have a mobile phone?

What’s your point? Everything has a consequence, the consequences of buying an EV are on a much larger scale. There is an alternative to powering a car.

[Passenger]

It may be well expressed but at some point he's felt the need to go out and buy and a 59 plate VW and is maintaining it, if he bought it new or secondhand its irrelevant…at some point he's changed his car. Why did he change it? Was it necessity…was it because he just wanted to change it….did he buy it new?
Unless youre walking around in shoes made of grass, living in a mud hut you constructed yourself and walking anywhere is just bluster.

Hehehe, Mrs P's been mad keen on her Esparto classes and has so far made me a grass sun hat and for herself a very tidy hand bag, leather strap and fixings by a local shoe maker...I'm still waiting for my woven espadrilles. Bit I digress.

[Saint-Just]

The EV thing? No, it is just virtue signalling.

Considering the following rant, pray tell me who is virtue signalling?

The problem that nobody is addressing is the population of the Earth is simply too great. I grew up in the 60s, the world population was estimated at about 1.5 billion. In my lifetime that has risen to the current estimate of 7.5 billion, a 5 fold increase. Coupled to that increase is the demand for 'new stuff' by more and more of that population... mobile phones, cars, x-boxes, all the peripherals that are, frankly, unecessary for survival [We're way past survival, although I accept many on earth are not. But the fact you can even connect to this forum, let alone take part, shows that you are closer to us than to them].Even household items - people can't be bothered to do the washing up and need a machine, that uses foul [define foul, as most are biodegradable, some faster than others (Ecover)] chemicals, to do the dishes for them. Fridges and freezers, TVs, computers, video recorders or whatever they are now (they have gone through about 4 iterations in the last decade or so... blue ray etc. That constant consumerism demand by an ever growing number of an ever growing population, that is what is doing the damage.... instead of changing your car every 5 years, keep it and keep it going, that is far more ecological, but it is bad for business to make stuff that lasts. Fashion, people being told they mustn't be seen in the same clothes, why? What is wrong with wearing a shirt more than a couple of times? I have shirts 30 years old that I still wear (and they still fit me!) TKMax, £5 shirts to wear once for a night out and then throw out... it is just wasteful and wrong, but the manufacturers want you to, so they tell you that is how you should live your life.... to feed their greed. And there is the crux of the matter, constant greed.

Good rant, even if you are definitely in the ranks of those you denounce, and forget that the greatest pollutions comes from those countries which combine low income with high population. But we have a dedicated thread for those, and this one is not it.

[walkerwek1958]

Electric cars are now becoming more mainstream and are no longer the exclusive preserve of the trendy early adaptors, virtue signallers and other idealistic beardy types, but the major factor driving the change has to be cost for most people. No point in spending big money to buy a replacement car simply to save money on fuel costs.

The green argument is complex if all factors are considered, but what can’t be disputed is the positive benefits to air quality in urban areas with high traffic density.

Would I spend £30k on a petrol- engined car? If there was something I really liked and wanted to own I would do it, accepting that it might lose much if its value over 3 years of ownership.......that’s what cars do and they always have done!

[Saint-Just]

Would I spend £30k on a petrol- engined car? If there was something I really liked and wanted to own I would do it, accepting that it might lose much if its value over 3 years of ownership.......that’s what cars do and they always have done!

You are only considering the £30k car is a new one. It doesn't have to be

For example: 1980 350 SL, £35k



I doubt very much that it will have lost much of its value in 3 years...

[Mr Curta]

We're in a transition phase away from fossil fuels, which are obviously unsustainable. EV technology is developing apace, the UK charging infrastructure is already very solid and the energy to supply them moving more and more towards renewables. I bought a full EV for a smidge over 30 grand in April after my daily commute extended considerably and a couple of close calls with the local fuel stations running out of diesel. I have every intention of keeping it well beyond the 100,000 mile mark and it has already saved over £1,200 in fuel bills. We still have a small petrol car for our daughter to learn in and a diesel estate for runs to the middle of nowhere and large loads but they barely get a look in and I can see us ditching the estate soon. I've a touring trip up to Scotland in a couple of weeks and will take the EV with no concerns about charging, it shifts really well and I love how quiet it is when driving in the countryside.

As FFF says, at the moment it's a case of what makes the most sense for your individual circumstances.

[wileeeeeey]

I use a website called abetterrouteplanner which is live linked to my Tesla and tells me where to charge and how long for. Really handy for long trips and free.

The only thing which is annoying me at the minute while owning an electric car is not having a driveway which will finally be fixed in about two months.

[Mr Curta]

I use a website called abetterrouteplanner...

Yeah, it's also very good in app. form and integrates nicely with CarPlay.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I use a website called abetterrouteplanner which is live linked to my Tesla and tells me where to charge and how long for. Really handy for long trips and free.

The only thing which is annoying me at the minute while owning an electric car is not having a driveway which will finally be fixed in about two months.

I see that mentioned all the time by a you-tuber who does the long range EV tests, seems the best system out there.

[Dave+63]

What’s your point? Everything has a consequence, the consequences of buying an EV are on a much larger scale. There is an alternative to powering a car.

I’ll let you figure that one out for yourself.

[DavidL]

Would I ? Yep, just did. Only useful with a minimum of 500bhp mind ;)
EV cars do nothing for me currently and I have no real desire to own one but it is rather pushing uphill so the next one may well be. I just hope they improve the designs a bit, to my eyes at least.

[RobM]

It may make sense at an individual level but it is not “greener”. Volvo said it the emissions from make img a pan EV compared to petrol was 70% higher and would take 9 years of driving before it became greener. That also doesn’t take into account the child labour in countries mining the raw materials to make batteries and the fact that the batteries are very difficult to recycle.
So yes by all means buy an EV if it suits your needs but don’t think you are doing anything for the planet.

You missed out some important bits there, they also go on to say……The Swedish car maker said that over a car's lifetime the electric version will become greener overall, though this will only be achieved after covering between 30,000 and 68,400 miles - taking between four and nine years for the average UK motorist. It also goes on to say that is drastically reduced to 30k miles if using clean energy.
As i said…its a step in the right direction

So it makes sense to move as many people to EV’s as possible then, based on those timelines. As posted by somebody else, common EV’s have been around longer than these time periods so are now a net benefit to the world.

EV’s bought today will last longer than 4-9 years / 68k miles, so while the benefits might not be immediate, they only start when the decision is made to buy an EV not an ICE car.

I suspect my driveway will have both ICE and EV for many years yet, but any choice to buy an EV is based on preference and opportunity. To call it virtue signalling on a forum dedicated to completely unnecessary consumer goods that have been manufactured abroad and shipped around the world is somewhat daft and certainly selective arguing IMO.

[craig1912]

So it makes sense to move as many people to EV’s as possible then, based on those timelines. As posted by somebody else, common EV’s have been around longer than these time periods so are now a net benefit to the world.

EV’s bought today will last longer than 4-9 years / 68k miles, so while the benefits might not be immediate, they only start when the decision is made to buy an EV not an ICE car.

I suspect my driveway will have both ICE and EV for many years yet, but any choice to buy an EV is based on preference and opportunity. To call it virtue signalling on a forum dedicated to completely unnecessary consumer goods that have been manufactured abroad and shipped around the world is somewhat daft and certainly selective arguing IMO.

You can’t move many people to EV’s as the majority of people can’t afford them. Even if they could, we can’t generate enough electricity to charge them. I’ve no issue with people buying them but we are just shifting local pollution to somewhere else (we can’t generate enough “green” electricity). It won’t be long before the financial advantage will go as the government can’t afford to lose so much in taxes from people moving from petrol, to EV and will have to tax them in one form or other.

[Franky Four Fingers]

You can’t move many people to EV’s as the majority of people can’t afford them. Even if they could, we can’t generate enough electricity to charge them. I’ve no issue with people buying them but we are just shifting local pollution to somewhere else (we can’t generate enough “green” electricity). It won’t be long before the financial advantage will go as the government can’t afford to lose so much in taxes from people moving from petrol, to EV and will have to tax them in one form or other.

Seems like most detractors of EV cars use the price of the car as an argument…..EV cars are starting at 20k which brings it in line with so many ice cars now.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...-electric-cars

[Kingstepper]

Seems like most detractors of EV cars use the price of the car as an argument…..EV cars are starting at 20k which brings it in line with so many ice cars now.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...-electric-cars

Might bring it in line with a mini sized car, hardly like for like.

[Chinese_Alan]

I know plenty of EV drivers but they are all company cars. Don’t know anyone who has bought one completely off their own back yet.

Had a 30 day quote window with our company car provider for a facelifted 3 Series. Ummed and arred and eventually left it.

The EV choice at my tier/grace is awful mind so sticking it out for a bit longer sharing with the other half. Ordered a full EV XC40 in March which was then cancelled by Volvo in April. Annoying but getting on with it.

As many others have said. Go for it.

[Bestofthebest]

No car is an investment. I'd buy the best compromise between fun and cost of ownership. I did a calc for a friend doing 15k miles p/a on a Macan yesterday. assuming 28MPG that's 535 gallons at £8.20 = £4,393 annual fuel cost or £366 per month. Add £500 for Insurance and about £500 for tax plus £650 p/a for maint & tyres. Not a cheap car to run.

[craig1912]

Seems like most detractors of EV cars use the price of the car as an argument…..EV cars are starting at 20k which brings it in line with so many ice cars now.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...-electric-cars

£20k oh that’s all right then ! Millions of people will struggle to pay for their gas and electricity bills this winter never mind having to pay £20k+ for a car that is going to cost them even more in electricity.

[Franky Four Fingers]

£20k oh that’s all right then ! Millions of people will struggle to pay for their gas and electricity bills this winter never mind having to pay £20k+ for a car that is going to cost them even more in electricity.

So they wouldn’t be able to afford an ice car then…jeez

[Kingstepper]

So they wouldn’t be able to afford an ice car then…jeez

They might be able to afford a runaround for a few thousand.

[Franky Four Fingers]

They might be able to afford a runaround for a few thousand.

Yes so they wouldn’t afford a new ice car then

[craig1912]

Yes so they wouldn’t afford a new ice car then

So what are you saying? Your responses don’t make sense. You said most detractors state price as the issue, you then say they can have one for £20k and when you are pulled up on that cost, you say they can’t afford an EV.

EVs are unaffordable for the majority of the population…..end of conversation.

[walkerwek1958]

You are only considering the £30k car is a new one. It doesn't have to be

For example: 1980 350 SL, £35k



I doubt very much that it will have lost much of its value in 3 years...

Classic cars are a totally different proposition, I own one so I’m fully aware of the pros and cons. I suspect classic values may struggle over the next few years, certainly can’t see them going up.

[Dave+63]

Brand new cars are unaffordable for the majority of the population…..end of conversation.

FTFY

[Franky Four Fingers]

So what are you saying? Your responses don’t make sense. You said most detractors state price as the issue, you then say they can have one for £20k and when you are pulled up on that cost, you say they can’t afford an EV.

EVs are unaffordable for the majority of the population…..end of conversation.

What?

Its quite simple, people who cant afford a new EV aren’t likely to be able to afford a new ice vehicle either. If you cant afford a 20k EV car which is where they start you wont afford a 20k ice vehicle either. So yeh its the end of the conversation.

[xxnick1975]

Out of interest what EVs are £20k?

Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Pug 208, all from at least £27k arnt they.



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[craig1912]

What?

Its quite simple, people who cant afford a new EV aren’t likely to be able to afford a new ice vehicle either. If you cant afford a 20k EV car which is where they start you wont afford a 20k ice vehicle either. So yeh its the end of the conversation.

Very few secondhand EVs and who would want one with uncertainties over the batteries. Many decent ICEs at under £10k. Job done so yea end of conversation

[Franky Four Fingers]

Out of interest what EVs are £20k?

Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Pug 208, all from at least £27k arnt they.



Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

Smart EQ starts around 20k

[Franky Four Fingers]

Very few secondhand EVs and who would want one with uncertainties over the batteries. Many decent ICEs at under £10k. Job done so yea end of conversation

Oh, so we’re talking second hand now…ah i see

[craig1912]

Oh, so we’re talking second hand now…ah i see

Oh whatever Frankie, you obviously know best. You are divorced from the general public and obviously don’t realise how few people can afford to buy anew car.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Oh whatever Frankie, you obviously know best. You are divorced from the general public and obviously don’t realise how few people can afford to buy anew car.

FFS really, its a new car now is it. Keep up. One minute you state people cant afford EVs due to price then you change it to second hand to suit your argument and then change it to affording just a new car. Indeed whatever.

[Saint-Just]

Oh whatever Frankie, you obviously know best. You are divorced from the general public and obviously don’t realise how few people can afford to buy anew car.

You may have missed the thread title that mentions £30k. Easy thing to do, I know.

[craig1912]

You may have missed the thread title that mentions £30k. Easy thing to do, I know.

No I didn’t

[craig1912]

FFS really, its a new car now is it. Keep up. One minute you state people cant afford EVs due to price then you change it to second hand to suit your argument and then change it to affording just a new car. Indeed whatever.

I haven’t changed anything. People can’t afford an EV secondhand or new

[Saint-Just]

No I didn’t

In that case why are you arguing about people not being able to afford anything ? It’s entirely irrelevant here, as this amount will get you both new and second hand ICE and EV cars.
Means may make a difference in the uptake of EV but it’s not exactly the subject then, is it?

[Franky Four Fingers]

I haven’t changed anything. People can’t afford an EV secondhand or new

So what “people” cant afford them?

[daveyw]

No car is an investment. I'd buy the best compromise between fun and cost of ownership. I did a calc for a friend doing 15k miles p/a on a Macan yesterday. assuming 28MPG that's 535 gallons at £8.20 = £4,393 annual fuel cost or £366 per month. Add £500 for Insurance and about £500 for tax plus £650 p/a for maint & tyres. Not a cheap car to run.

That’s an interesting set of figures, thanks.
I’m not virtuous so no point in trying to signal that. I just want a good car, preowned okay, budget £30-35k and a ‘good’ EV is out of range (excuse the pun) so ICE it’ll probably be.

[Dave+63]

There’s currently 2714 cars between £25k and £35k listed on Autotrader.

Lots of decent cars to choose from too; the E Neros in particular have a genuine range of over 250 miles.

[Kingstepper]

Yes so they wouldn’t afford a new ice car then

No, who said had to be a new car?

[Mr Curta]

There’s currently 2714 cars between £25k and £35k listed on Autotrader.

Lots of decent cars to choose from too; the E Neros in particular have a genuine range of over 250 miles.

Indeed, and I guess it depends on your personal definition of a 'good' vehicle. I consider many new EVs in the £30k - £35k range to be 'good', from the likes of VW, Kia, Skoda, Mini, Nissan, Mazda, etc. Tesla doesn't hit the VFM mark for me, build quality isn't great and I can't quite fathom their popularity, I suppose a lot of people like gadgets. Pre-owned EVs currently start at around £10k and affordability will continue to improve as the second-hand vehicles filter through, technology develops and competition increases.

[Franky Four Fingers]

No, who said had to be a new car?

For the purpose of this thread no but the Volvo post kind of kicked it off


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[aa388]

Indeed, and I guess it depends on your personal definition of a 'good' vehicle. I consider many new EVs in the £30k - £35k range to be 'good', from the likes of VW, Kia, Skoda, Mini, Nissan, Mazda, etc. Tesla doesn't hit the VFM mark for me, build quality isn't great and I can't quite fathom their popularity, I suppose a lot of people like gadgets. Pre-owned EVs currently start at around £10k and affordability will continue to improve as the second-hand vehicles filter through, technology develops and competition increases.

I’m sure it will but that will depend on the longevity of the battery packs in them. Would you fork out say £20k on a secondhand car only to be told a couple of months down the line that the battery needs replaced and that would be at £10k or £15k ?*??. I’ve read recent about someone who paid lots on a few year old Merc that developed a battery fault that was not covered by any warranty and he was in a dilemma whether to fork out a fortune to have it replaced or scrap it.

This is while the coal fired power station at Drax has been fired up again to generate electricity because of shortfalls in supply.


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