Reply With QuoteI’d have told the seller. What would be the problem with letting them know?
A little while ago a watch came up on Sales Corner. I was between 95% & 9.99999% certain it was a redial. Redials are not uncommon on watches of that era.
The seller said "I don't know if this is a redial."
Stuck between the rock of ruining a sellers sale and a hard place of letting a buyer pay original condition money for a watch that I felt wasn't quite right, I ummed and ahhed and decided it best not to comment.
What would you have done?
I’d have told the seller. What would be the problem with letting them know?
You advised the seller who should have edited the description to include the uncertainty.
If the seller didn’t do so within a relatively short timeframe then I think it was worthwhile you airing your suspicions.
There would then have been a discussion amongst those more knowledgable on the model in question and a conclusion drawn.
Whatever happens after that would be between the buyer and seller but there would then be no comeback on the seller.
Everything works on a system of trust in the Sales Forum and I would always try and use the old adage of "buy the seller not the item". So I would probably work backwards from the rep of the seller previously in making that decision.
Dave+63 spells out a fair approach I think.
The seller highlighted it himself…… there’s no need for anyone else to highlight it surely?
As someone who's bought from Sales Corner, I'd take some comfort in the thought those more knowledgeable that I am might spot issues and raise them. So in my view, if you're relatively confident of an issue, I think that should be made visible. Ideally informing the seller who updates the thread accordingly, or putting it in a respectful thought out way on the thread (i.e. not as a 'gottcha' type statement).
Also as someone who's sold on Sales Corner, I'd be embarrassed to find something I sold wasn't as described, so I'd appreciate being informed if I was unknowingly misrepresenting something.
Surely if there's any advantage at all to being able to post on sales threads, it's to air this knd of thing so that those with expertise can weigh in?
Originally Posted by RJM25R
Let’s be clear, the term ‘redial’ is ambiguous , redial is something you do with a telephone.
A dial is either totally original, a service replacement, or a REFINISHED dial! Redial is totally meaningless but it’s a term that’s become part of everyday parlance amongst the watch fraternity. Tgere’s also tge possibility of a genuine dial taken from another similar watch that may be from a different year and differ very slightly in detail.
I own examples that fall into all categories, plus another that I can’t make my mind up about!
If the OP says what he really means there’s a chance of getting a sensible answer, but I’m inclined to think he should step back and stay out of it!
Oh, so you mean a re-dial then?
Replacement dial.......redial is a stupid term to use, totally ambiguous, but it gets quoted and repeated until it enters the vocabulary.Oh, so you mean a re-dial then?
You are right, to all intensive purposes.
Was this a reply he sent to you, or put on the sales thread?
If I dial gets damaged and sent back to the manufacturer, is that a replacement dial, service dial, redial or fixed under warranty? 🧐
At the time I genuinely didn't think of contacting the seller via a private message, I don't know why. Even as I typed out the original post it seemed an obvious and simple course of action. But at the same time it was also an interesting dilema for the forum brain to ponder.
Yes, the seller stated in the advert that he'd been asked if it was a redial and that he did not know.
And for the pedants: I meant a dial refinished by someone other than the original manufacturer. Not a replacement dial harvested from an original watch. It's such a common term I didn't think it would need clarification, but to be fair there is very little discussion on vintage watches here and for obvious deasons that's where the term is most frequently used.
Thanks everyone for your opinions.
That changes my initial response as the seller has opened the dial situation up for discussion in his original post.
It’s open for discussion but ultimately the buyer knows exactly where he stands re the dial and is either prepared to take the risk, doesn’t care or may want to negotiate a price to cover his risks.
It’s all open and above board so everyone should be happy.
If a new dial supplied from the manufacturer is fitted that’s a service dial. If a watch gets sent to me and I have a similar dial from a used watch that’s a replacement dial. If the original dial is refinished that’s a refinished dial.
No such thing as a redial.
It seems that the seller in the OP was aware that there were questions, and had stated that he was unsure in his advert. All open and above board.
I think that is enough.
Sending him a PM suggesting that you are pretty sure it has been re-finished (with your resons) may have helped, but I am not sure you should have considered it your public duty, as the doubt was already visible.
But the query was there in the sales post for all to see.
The only question is whether the photos were good enough for potential buyers to judge the quality of the dial, as re-finished dials can be anything from near perfect to utterly horrid.
I’d say redial meant any of the above.
About to say the same. If there is no further context, I read redial as a generic term covering any of the scenarios.
Spotting a refinished dial and assessing the quality of the refinishing is difficult from photos. One example is the very fine sunburst finish which was popular on vintage watches which is impossible to reproduce in my experience, but that can be hard to see from pictures. Font style, spacing of font, thickness of lines, these are all details which can be hard for a refinisher to get exactly right. There are plenty of other details too, but you have to know what to look for and that’s where the advice from an ‘expert’ comes in. What further confuses matters is the fact that genuine original dials vary, I assume they are made in batches or possibly by different suppliers, but they can differ. I have a genuine Omega 2254.50 dial fitted to one of my watches and compared to other examples I’ve worked on mine is a slightly ‘bluer’ black, a tiny difference but perceptible side by side. I bought a 1968 Omega with a silvered dial that’s obviously correct but simply looks too clean, its not refinished but I struggle to believe its 50 years old so I assume its a service replacement that’s been fitted at some point. I have a black- dialled pie pan Constellation that’s the same, every detail is correct but I’m not convinced its aged sufficiently, it passes all visual tests for originality but for me its slightly too good and I suspect it’s a replacement.
It’s usually easier to say that a dial is refinished than to be certain it’s original, particularly where the dial is very clean, but if there are none if the usual giveaways it has to be concluded that the dial is original or a service replacement.
As for commenting on sales ads, I firmly believe this should be by PM only when the advice/ information may be detrimental to the sale. Sometimes its better to stay out of it completely, that tends to be my attitude thesedays.
On a similar note I’ve had vintage watches sent to me for service and it’s become clear that the watch is a franken or may have a fake case or dial (or both). Unless asked to give an opinion I don’t comment, no point in pissing on someone’s fireworks and spoiling their enjoyment of the watch. However, I’ve had 2 sent recently with totally wrong movements fitted, that’s different and obviously I informed the owners.
Buyer beware!
The effect on value and desirability is clearly impacted differently depending on the scenario, the somewhat dismissive generic term ‘redial’ is totally unhelpful and potentially misleading, it’s been perpetrated by people who frankly don’t know any better and they regurgitate what they read.
I’ve been involved with vintage watches for over 20+ years, as a collector and over the last 11 years as a repairer/restorer. The attitude towards replaced or refinished dials has changed considerably and the premium placed on originality has increased to a point where it sometimes defies logic. Refinished dials will always be a compromise and are less preferable to a genuine item in good condition even if its not original to the watch, but its illogical to lump replacement dials under the same umbrella by using the term ‘redial’.
Sorry, but decent photos (in focus, minimum 2000 pixels, with at least 60% of the photo being the watch) are one of the best ways of assessing whether a dial has been re-done.
The main advantage being that you can see all of the dial, clearly, and in focus, all at once. Much easier that squinting through a loupe at specific details.
You can see all types of textured finish on decent photos, whether brushed, linen, sunburst, crackled, or just plain dirty.
Agreed, if the pictures are good you can usually make a judgement but I much prefer having the watch in my hand. Looking at a dial through a magnifier without the glass in place gives an even better picture and looking on the back if the dial after removal will sometimes reveal more.
Split hairs with me if you wish, but I dismantle watches daily and have done for several years, I don’t make this up!
If I was spending big money on a watch I would always insist on handling it, its easy to be fooled by photos. Pictures will often show when something’s not right, but they will always have limitations.
I have no wish to split hairs at all, you started that with the very debatable statement "Spotting a refinished dial and assessing the quality of the refinishing is difficult from photos."
I had already stated that the photos needed to be good enough, but if they are, it is relatively easy with a good comparison dial photo to work with.
The alternative, holding the watch and examining it, is nigh on impossible with any practicality for an SC listing, which is by definition an online sales platform.
Although (I hope) everyone here would happily refund an unhappy buyer, very few would send a good watch to a buyer without payment being completed, or at least committed.
I would have thought everyone here would refund, I know I would.
But in this case if I had stated that I had doubts about the dial in my sales post and the buyer then wanted a refund because the dial wasn't kosher in some way I'd be pretty miffed to say the least.
Try *66 from a landline
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