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Thread: ULEZ Expansion 2023

  1. #1

    ULEZ Expansion 2023

    I hate TfL with a passion. The are parasitic barstewards who serve a purpose to squeeze every last penny out of every motorist, for the most minor traffic infringement possible within London.

    Yes, I have had numerous run-ins with them before, and have seen how sh1tty they are when you try to fight back. They once tried to fine me £160 for stopping on a unpainted yellow box junction. Took 6 months and tribunal before their lawyer armed with 6 inches thick of paperwork backed down.

    Well, not content with raking in tens of millions from bus lanes, yellow box junctions, no right turns etc., the next ruse is to fill their depleted coffers by a proposal to extend the ULEZ to the whole of Greater London in 2023.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...nsion-for-2023

    Both of our cars are non-ULEZ compliant, but luckily Iím a mile away from the Greater London boundary.

    But, it means either buying new cars or never driving into the outer suburbs of London again.

  2. #2
    I already live within the ULEZ zone so no bother to me. My 11 year old Skoda is compliant too so win win.

  3. #3
    Master bomberman's Avatar
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    ULEZ Expansion 2023

    Something needs to change as pollution in and around the City needs to be reduced, however if this goes through I am struggling to see how those who are unable to purchase a newer or approved vehicle will manage as well as the very fact that commerciall, costs will be passed onto Customers.

    From a simple perspective why hasnít this simply been applied to everything within the M25. Is this because some areas are outside of TFíLs control or a commercial interest such as IKEA on the circular?

    Resistance if futile where TFL are concerned and surrender is the only optionÖ
    I fear that this is a given, and the decision has already been made for 2023.

    B

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by bomberman View Post
    Something needs to change as pollution in and around the City needs to be reduced, however if this goes through I am struggling to see how those who are unable to purchase a newer or approved vehicle will manage as well as the very fact that commerciall, costs will be passed onto Customers.

    From a simple perspective why hasnít this simply been applied to everything within the M25. Is this because some areas are outside of TFíLs control or a commercial interest such as IKEA on the circular?

    Resistance if futile where TFL are concerned and surrender is the only optionÖ
    I fear that this is a given, and the decision has already been made for 2023.

    B
    Why the M25 - that's just be an arbitrary boundary?

  5. #5
    Master Man of Kent's Avatar
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    There's no reason to drive a non-Ulez car. If you can afford a car, you can afford a Ulez compliant one. When my wife wanted to get rid of her old banger, one of her main considerations was that it had to be Ulez. She could have bought one for £800 which was the cheapest we could find. Luckily she got a Ulez non-jalopy for a whole lot more, but just making the point that cost isn't an issue to use as an excuse.
    If a single person lives longer because they haven't breathed in the toxic London air then it's worth doing.

  6. #6
    I see they have taken in Chessington World of Adventures to snag a few extra families from outside London.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    I see they have taken in Chessington World of Adventures to snag a few extra families from outside London.
    Nothing unusual here as CWoA is in postcode KT9 which is a borough of Greater London, and falls under the responsibility of TfL.

  8. #8
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Worth noting that whilst I'm sure revenue generation plays a part here the key driver is lowering the levels of harmful pollution in London and therefore before moaning people should query why they are allowing themselves to still pollute the atmosphere and whether there are alternatives. Doesn't mean buying a new car as times are tough but maybe exploring public transport etc which is plentiful in London

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Worth noting that whilst I'm sure revenue generation plays a part here the key driver is lowering the levels of harmful pollution in London and therefore before moaning people should query why they are allowing themselves to still pollute the atmosphere and whether there are alternatives. Doesn't mean buying a new car as times are tough but maybe exploring public transport etc which is plentiful in London
    The non-compliant cars do not go on to get scrapped. They merely get sold and turn up in other U.K. cities and continue to emit.

    It is Londons working poor and hard pressed families I feel for, having to upgrade their cars at the time of maximum inflation. Something which they can ill afford. While those high earners in £60k company leased, low BIK EVs are all smug.

    Whatever they tell you, TfL will have one lens on pollution and one bigger lens on revenue generation. TfL get all the revenue, but it is generally at the expense of the lower wage earner forced to pay for the TfL scheme via a car upgrade.

    Also, give it 5+ years and most of the non compliant cars will be off the road anyway due to a cars normal lifespan.

  10. #10
    Master bomberman's Avatar
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    ULEZ Expansion 2023

    Itís not just about cars owners within the zone but also cars venturing into the zone that are effected.

    Maybe if an actual incentive was offered rather than a penalty then it gain more support as the people I have spoken to see the benefits of reducing emissions but begrudge the penalty TFL are going to impose by default.

    B
    Last edited by bomberman; 12th June 2022 at 17:08.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    and one bigger lens on revenue generation.
    The Mayor relies on handouts, precepts and grants. His only control of revenue is TfL fares, congestion charges and ULEZ. TfL has a massive post-Covid black hole piled on top of an already dire financial state. It is in effect bankrupt. The expansion of ULEZ from the inner city to the north and south circular roads cost something like £175m and has failed to deliver anywhere near the expected revenue increase, so he has to extend ULEZ to the outer London boroughs. Air quality in outer London boroughs is the same as air quality in urban areas throughout the UK and better than other major cities, motorways and trunk roads throughout the UK. The air quality in the London Borough of Richmond will be no worse than that in the neighbouring Surrey districts of Elmbridge and Spellthorne.

  12. #12
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    The Mayor relies on handouts, precepts and grants. His only control of revenue is TfL fares, congestion charges and ULEZ. TfL has a massive post-Covid black hole piled on top of an already dire financial state. It is in effect bankrupt. The expansion of ULEZ from the inner city to the north and south circular roads cost something like £175m and has failed to deliver anywhere near the expected revenue increase, so he has to extend ULEZ to the outer London boroughs. Air quality in outer London boroughs is the same as air quality in urban areas throughout the UK and better than other major cities, motorways and trunk roads throughout the UK. The air quality in the London Borough of Richmond will be no worse than that in the neighbouring Surrey districts of Elmbridge and Spellthorne.
    Agreed
    Itís nothing to do with air quality. Itís all about revenue.

  13. #13
    It's happening. ULEZ to be extended to cover all of Greater London in August 2023.

    I just ordered my leccy car yesterday so that was serendipitous, as neither my Euro IV Volvo V70 diesel nor old petrol engined Vauxhall are compliant.

    I live outside the ULEZ, but only by a stones throw.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    It's happening. ULEZ to be extended to cover all of Greater London in August 2023.

    I just ordered my leccy car yesterday so that was serendipitous, as neither my Euro IV Volvo V70 diesel nor old petrol engined Vauxhall are compliant.

    I live outside the ULEZ, but only by a stones throw.
    I live inside and Iím surprised by the number of cars still around that Iím sure canít be compliant!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    It's happening. ULEZ to be extended to cover all of Greater London in August 2023.

    I just ordered my leccy car yesterday so that was serendipitous, as neither my Euro IV Volvo V70 diesel nor old petrol engined Vauxhall are compliant.

    I live outside the ULEZ, but only by a stones throw.

    I'm in the same boat, less than 2 miles as the crow flies to the GL boundary and many friends and family within the GL area. We have 4 cars in household and only 2 are compliant (both small/compact petrols) - so will need to sort out new family transport next year.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why the M25 - that's just be an arbitrary boundary?
    It was arbitrary enough for Vodafone and Cellnet to charge 33p per minute inside the M25 and 25p per minute outside back in the day!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Agreed
    Itís nothing to do with air quality. Itís all about revenue.
    As the £10 charge for signing up to auto pay so they cant wring you for forgetting seems to confirm.
    Shame I cant swear in the GD.

  18. #18
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    As the £10 charge for signing up to auto pay so they cant wring you for forgetting seems to confirm.
    Shame I cant swear in the GD.
    100% agree (and I'm nowhere near a ULEZ charge, YET, anyway)

    I had to laugh at this post from Ryan above who until recently...drove a frikkin' Range Rover

    QUOTE
    Worth noting that whilst I'm sure revenue generation plays a part here the key driver is lowering the levels of harmful pollution in London and therefore before moaning people should query why they are allowing themselves to still pollute the atmosphere and whether there are alternatives. Doesn't mean buying a new car as times are tough but maybe exploring public transport etc which is plentiful in London[/B]
    Last edited by reggie747; 25th November 2022 at 17:37.

  19. #19
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Itís nothing to do with air quality. Itís all about revenue.
    Yup, agreed.

  20. #20
    Pure revenue raising. I don't know when everyone will get fed up of the Tories and their cost cutting, tax raising; Khan and his revenue raising; the cost of living crisis; fuel prices; the strikes etc etc.

  21. #21
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    TFL has an enormous black hole to fill, and Khan is using any means possible to fill it.
    I drive a pick up for work out of necessity for picking up bulk materials. Electric not an option.
    A compliant vehicle will set me back £15k…
    It’s not like I don’t try and look after my truck, but to me £15k is a hell of a lot of money, for something that
    Will pick up knocks/dents/scrapes.

    Let alone I don’t even trust them…. What happens when they move the goalposts for emission criteria and it becomes chargeable again. You know, when the sold the dream of diesels being the future…

    Still the wealthy or “sensible” who have gone electric; no tax, cheaper to run, some free recharging from Supermarket retailers…. That’s all worked out well…
    It’s just another tax, I can’t really say stealth, but just blatant.
    Pollution just another excuse… I “could” still pay the £12.50 a day, as could many others, rev the nuts off it, and puff out loads of filthy black smoke everywhere….樂
    Last edited by deanlad; 26th November 2022 at 08:53.

  22. #22
    Was holding out hope that for once with the backdrop of fuel prices etc heíd be sensible but Guess itís time to look for new car

  23. #23
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    You want clean air? Ban big tyres and heavy vehicles.
    "A man of little significance"

  24. #24
    Prices of non-ULEZ cars are going to crater soon in the SE. Hundreds and thousands of them will offloaded at the same time. Especially as the new ULEZ zone must be five times the size of the current ULEZ zone by area.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    You want clean air? Ban big tyres and heavy vehicles.
    If youíre serious about it, thatís the way.

    Along with any kind of fossil fuel powered home/workplace heating, and industrial processes.

    Of course, thatís impractical so itís all about minimising the impact or moving to cleaner (albeit imperfect) more sustainable Ďthingsí, and consuming less Ďstuffí. Oh, and stop having lots of kids.

    At some point though we have to stop kicking the can down the road, as thereíll be no road left.

    More of the same isnít going to cut it.

  26. #26
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanlad View Post
    A compliant vehicle will set me back £15m.
    Wow. Thoughts and prayers.

  27. #27
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why the M25 - that's just be an arbitrary boundary?
    It's also a very big and obvious boundary, and anybody (hopefully) would know if they were within or outside it. Wouldn't any boundary be arbitrary?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    It's also a very big and obvious boundary, and anybody (hopefully) would know if they were within or outside it. Wouldn't any boundary be arbitrary?
    Suppose thatís true but a boundary based upon air quality or vehicle density would be more scientific.

  29. #29
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Suppose thatís true but a boundary based upon air quality or vehicle density would be more scientific.
    Itís not about air quality though. Itís about revenue
    If it were about air quality they would ban the most polluting vehicles

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    If youíre serious about it, thatís the way.

    Along with any kind of fossil fuel powered home/workplace heating, and industrial processes.

    Of course, thatís impractical so itís all about minimising the impact or moving to cleaner (albeit imperfect) more sustainable Ďthingsí, and consuming less Ďstuffí. Oh, and stop having lots of kids.

    At some point though we have to stop kicking the can down the road, as thereíll be no road left.

    More of the same isnít going to cut it.
    Iím not even sure that is the way. The amount of energy it takes to produce an electric car and the amount to recycle the batteries means the gains are not that significant. And thatís without taking into account a lot of the energy that goes into EVs come from fossil fuels.

    Thereís also the ethical implications of mining lithium. That in itself is destroying the environment and itís widely accepted theyíre using child Labour, in conditions worse than Victorian England.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Wow. Thoughts and prayers.
    Ha. Sorry. Typo there. Should have been £15kÖ
    Still may well as be £15m though

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Iím not even sure that is the way. The amount of energy it takes to produce an electric car and the amount to recycle the batteries means the gains are not that significant. And thatís without taking into account a lot of the energy that goes into EVs come from fossil fuels.

    Thereís also the ethical implications of mining lithium. That in itself is destroying the environment and itís widely accepted theyíre using child Labour, in conditions worse than Victorian England.
    Sadly, this is a fundamental flaw of much of the green agenda.

    I was listening to someone from the wind farm industry on LBC a while ago. He was saying that the thing nobody seems to talk about is that (and the numbers may be slightly out, but the principle is accurate) the carbon ROI on a single wind turbine is about 25 years, but they reach their end of life after 20 years.

  33. #33

    ULEZ Expansion 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    It's also a very big and obvious boundary, and anybody (hopefully) would know if they were within or outside it. Wouldn't any boundary be arbitrary?
    Khan is responsible for transport in Greater London. The M25ís route does not go through London, except (I think) a small section through the borough of Havering, it goes around London and through local authorities he has no jurisdiction over. He of course has no jurisdiction for the M25 itself. The ULEZ boundary will follow that of the external boundaries of Londonís boroughs.

    It is arbitrary in terms of air quality. The air quality in Londonís outer boroughs is no different to that in neighbouring non-London local authorities and other urban and suburban areas in the U.K. It is better than other cities in the U.K., the M25 and other major routes in the U.K.

    It is Khanís political legacy.


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    Last edited by BillyCasper; 26th November 2022 at 09:07.

  34. #34
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    Bristol launch it later this month the Clean Air Zone looks like the same restrictions as ULEZ and a £9 a day fee.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Iím not even sure that is the way. The amount of energy it takes to produce an electric car and the amount to recycle the batteries means the gains are not that significant. And thatís without taking into account a lot of the energy that goes into EVs come from fossil fuels.

    Thereís also the ethical implications of mining lithium. That in itself is destroying the environment and itís widely accepted theyíre using child Labour, in conditions worse than Victorian England.
    Unfortunately, a lot of that is incorrect, and probably not the place to go through it all again, but suffice to say every credible study says the opposite re whole life CO2, electricity is used on the production of fossil fuels too, as is Cobalt and it isnít mined solely for EV batteries.

    Thatís not making excuses for it, the worlds problems and the solutions are more complex than that, but the uncomfortable truth is we will need to fundamentally change the way we live if weíre to have a long term future on this planet.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bloater View Post
    Bristol launch it later this month the Clean Air Zone looks like the same restrictions as ULEZ and a £9 a day fee.
    This is more akin the the original London ULEZ, the high density centre.

    It does not cover the entire Bristol City local authority area. Londonís expansion does.


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Sadly, this is a fundamental flaw of much of the green agenda.

    I was listening to someone from the wind farm industry on LBC a while ago. He was saying that the thing nobody seems to talk about is that (and the numbers may be slightly out, but the principle is accurate) the carbon ROI on a single wind turbine is about 25 years, but they reach their end of life after 20 years.
    Tony, thatís not my understanding, and itís talked about plenty as well as on LBC.

    https://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/

    It might be the case for a turbine placed in a poor location, but not so for those well located like offshore and well maintained.

    There are many people keen to see the Ďgreen agendaí fail, but behind them are usually turkeys who see that Christmas is coming.

  38. #38
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    Restricted city access, end of ICEís, ďGreenĒ taxes, cost of electric cars. Iíll be surprised if anyone owns a car in 20 years.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    This is more akin the the original London ULEZ, the high density centre.

    It does not cover the entire Bristol City local authority area. Londonís expansion does.


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    Just like London used to be, but once they see how much money it rakes in, they can expand it.
    Under the pretence of the good it does it will soon be every city under restrictions.Iíll give it 5 years.

  40. #40
    Master Lammylee's Avatar
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    People who drive vans donít yet have a viable alternative for affordability, range and towing capacity so donít have a choice put to be taxed for earning a living which they will then have to add to their charges for services in the middle of a cost of living crisis.

    In Greater Manchester Andy Burnham tried to bring in a similar sized scheme but the working class rebelled causing him to blame the government for his choice of a 500m2 scheme and put it on hold.

    Maybe Londoners can do the same.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lammylee View Post
    People who drive vans donít yet have a viable alternative for affordability, range and towing capacity so donít have a choice put to be taxed for earning a living which they will then have to add to their charges for services in the middle of a cost of living crisis.

    In Greater Manchester Andy Burnham tried to bring in a similar sized scheme but the working class rebelled causing him to blame the government for his choice of a 500m2 scheme and put it on hold.

    Maybe Londoners can do the same.
    Any car or van made in the last 6 years complies with the ULEZ requirements, and pretty much any petrol car or van made in the last 16 years or more. They are not forcing you to buy a zero emissions electric vehicle.


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  42. #42
    Master dice's Avatar
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    A lot of you clearly did not live in London 20 years ago for any extended period when the poorness of the air quality would actually burn the inside of your nose. The air pollution problem is real, and these policies do combat it. Sure TfL are scum and they're making a disproportionate amount of money off of it, but what other deterrent is there for people to not bring their old diesels or sooty 5 litre Range Rovers for a catch up with mates?

    London is one of the most overburdened cities in the world with regards to population. Too many people here and there isn't enough housing, public services, infrastructure to deal comfortably. I'm sure this policy serves several points - cleans the air, makes TfL money (scum), and deters people from defaulting to London as a default location.

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by bloater View Post
    Bristol launch it later this month the Clean Air Zone looks like the same restrictions as ULEZ and a £9 a day fee.
    Cambridge also proposing a similar scheme.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Chinnock View Post
    Restricted city access, end of ICEís, ďGreenĒ taxes, cost of electric cars. Iíll be surprised if anyone owns a car in 20 years.
    Once we have full self driving cars all working and communicating in a networked highway system then what's the point of differentiation between one car and another. It won't be anything to do with handling, power or performance. It'll only be comfort.

    Once all cars are a nice place to be it wouldn't matter if you are in your own or someone else's.

  45. #45

    ULEZ Expansion 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    Any car or van made in the last 6 years complies with the ULEZ requirements, and pretty much any petrol car or van made in the last 16 years or more. They are not forcing you to buy a zero emissions electric vehicle.


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    The fleet of vehicles is in a constant state of renewal. Perhaps let existing vehicles reach the end of their useful lives and then replace. ULEZ compliance will come about in the foreseeable future, possibly throughout the U.K. as vehicles are renewed.

    The previous expansion cost £100m+ to set up and operate, this expansion double that. When ULEZ compliance is achieved, perhaps by all vehicles being electric, I wonder what will happen then? Wind the scheme up? No chance.

    That dirty air from the rich people in Spelthorne and Elmbridge had better not blow over into my borough.

    The biggest influence on air quality in my borough is aircraft flying in and out of Heathrow.


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  46. #46
    Master Lammylee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    Any car or van made in the last 6 years complies with the ULEZ requirements, and pretty much any petrol car or van made in the last 16 years or more. They are not forcing you to buy a zero emissions electric vehicle.


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    Yet.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    Any car or van made in the last 6 years complies with the ULEZ requirements, and pretty much any petrol car or van made in the last 16 years or more. They are not forcing you to buy a zero emissions electric vehicle.


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    You are almost right. Itís a maximum 6 year old vehicle Iím potentially being forced to buy.
    Being commercial, nearly all vat reg. At around the £15 k mark + vat, itís not really a viable option for me.

    I think whatís beginning to gripe is the fact that you donít have a choice, or is it a day in the matter.
    Expansion was well and truly opposed overwhelmingly/80%Ö. Yet it goes aheadÖ.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sadiq-khans-ulez-expansion-punishes-the-poorest/

  48. #48

  49. #49
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Tony, that’s not my understanding, and it’s talked about plenty as well as on LBC.

    https://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/

    It might be the case for a turbine placed in a poor location, but not so for those well located like offshore and well maintained.

    There are many people keen to see the ‘green agenda’ fail, but behind them are usually turkeys who see that Christmas is coming.
    That’s reassuring, thank you. I must admit that I didn’t do my own research afterwards, so good to be challenged on it - it’s a good reminder.

  50. #50
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    Not great timing with the cost of living crisis and the price of used cars right now, though I wonít miss the pollution. I went through this years ago due to living centrally and future proofing for the central London introduction, which forced me out of my cheap car comfort zone. Setting autotrader to 2006 onwards was a bracing increase at the time. But thereís plenty of choice. I ended up with a pleasantly ULEZ compliant BMW e86 Z4 Coupť, with hindsight Iím quite glad for the nudge. Not that this is likely to cheer anyone up who now has to sell their car in a hurry.

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