Reply With QuoteLooks pointless. Few people will care, other than those at the stage in their career where retirement cash trumps trophies.
That and the world cup are on the ever expanding personal boycott list.
Looking at the LIV Golf Saudi Arabian backed Tour, just seems like a huge pay day, for many middle aged golfers on the wain. How greedy some are. Phil Mickleson is reported to have been offered $200 million to join in the money train trough. Good luck to them, I won't watch a shot or attend an event. With our nation in financial crisis, I shall chose carefully who gets my hard earned attending events.
Looks pointless. Few people will care, other than those at the stage in their career where retirement cash trumps trophies.
That and the world cup are on the ever expanding personal boycott list.
I'm no fan of what appears to be driving this series/concept i.e. shitloads of cash, but I do think there is some mileage in the broader concept of mixing up professional golf which is quite staid and repetitive for 75% of the season.
The combination of very well known ageing golfers mixed with a few names none of know is actually very similar to the average PGA Tour event and by using Teams and not having a cut at least keeps the interest in the better known golfers.
I really dislike the platitudes from dullards like Dustin Johnson and Westwood about "growing the game", "doing something exciting" and worst of all "doing what's best for my family". When you've earned $75M just from playing golf your family does not need any more Ferraris or private jets.
I just want them to be honest and admit that it's really just about getting richer for doing less as without those bigger risk free pay packets they wouldn't even be considering it.
To be fair Louis and McDowell did almost say this in the 3 handed interview yesterday but again lets not pretend any of them couldn't retire today and be very very comfortable for the rest of their lives. Couldn't they just play less PGA tour events?
Most supporters response is that you/we wouldn't turn down the paycheck if it were offered to us and maybe that's true but it doesn't make it right or more importantly a better way to improve golf.
But hey I'm both a Newcastle fan and a golf fan and I'm so conflicted I can barely type!
It looks bonkers!
The format looks like it was dreamt up by some marketing people who saw the success of the IPL and thought 'I know what golf needs, more everything!'
The team element looks really contrived as they don't know who's actually going to play in each competition, they have to have a draft the week before each event. So each team will change from week to week?? I'm guessing they're assuming that it won't matter as you'll only have heard of a maximum of 12 of the golfers.
Also, the team names look like they were chosen by teams from the Apprentice... Smash, Punch, Crushers, Torque, Fireballs... really?
I was offered tickets to go along to Centurion for the first event but politely declined.
Last edited by Meesterbond; 8th June 2022 at 14:48.
I’m a member at a club in Hertfordshire and was asked to go along to the Centurian as a volunteer but declined. I kind of don’t blame the Westwoods of this world making a few final massive pay cheques but as mentioned above all of the BS they’re spouting about this sticks in the craw somewhat.
I won’t be watching.
It is pretty unedifying watching all these golfers state that they are against human rights violations, per se, without uttering a word of criticism for the Saudi regime, and whilst pocketing as much cash as they possibly can.
The ludicrously rich, getting much richer, whilst sportswashing a country that murdered and dismembered a jounalist inside their own consulate.
The world of golf may need shaking up. But not like this.
I was quite shocked at DJ’s resignation from the PGA yesterday, but today rumours are that Bryson, Patrick Reed and Rickie Fowler are also playing.
Reed and Bryson wouldn’t surprise me at all. Big fan of RF so would be very disappointed at that.Originally Posted by Devonian
Money money money eh?
Nothing on RF but the other two have joined.
Already confirmed that Bryson and Fatty Patty have signed up for LIV Golf today.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/202...di-backed-liv/
Rickie Fowler (who's career is pretty much dead on the PGA Tour now) is highly likely/rumoured to be joining the gravy train very soon too.
These are critical times for the PGA Tour as if a handful of the younger stars that are their future (Rory/JT/Rahm/Scheffler/Morrikawa/Hovland/Speith or any of the top 10 players really) also sign up they are in real trouble....
The Saudi's have literally a bottomless pit of money (rumoured $500 Billion+) to throw at this or sports per se and the PGA Tour (and DP World Tour) just won't be able to compete if they lose critical mass of the Top 10 players.
Rumour was that Tiger turned down an incredible amount of money (ranging from $500m to $750m) to join the LIV Golf launch but, really, it's just a matter of time until he retires at St. Andrews as his competitive golf career is pretty much over now.
The fact that most players will still be able to play in the 4 majors (as the PGA Tour don't "own" those) makes the only risk (for want of a better word) is that they would miss out on the Ryder Cup (big loss to most players) and Presidents Cup ("so what" for most players!!!)
Last edited by Gareth-W; 8th June 2022 at 16:57.
LIV interview with Phil M was very uncomfortable watching earlier.
Edit - interview with Poulter and Westwood not comfortable watching either.
Last edited by Devonian; 8th June 2022 at 17:38.
I liked the bit where he stated he’s “giving back” by getting involved. With a straight face too!
Poker face Poulter (and dour face Westwood) = squeeky bum time!!!!
I always thought the seniors tour was now quite lucrative, I guess this is a nice payday on the way to seniority.
That was excruciating with Poulter and Westwood after the BBC gave them nowhere to squirm.
When did my golfing heroes become Tory politicians.
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It looks an abomination, I watched Mickleson squirm over Human Rights issues and then try and justify this new competition. It is 100% about the money and greed. There looks like potential challenges and sanctions from the PGA. I hope it crashes and burns and these greedy a-holes are all ostracised. It is not too dissimilar to the football super league. All about the cash.
I find it interesting for various reasons. Firstly, by signing up DJ and Bryson they’ve got at least two relevant players to attract potential fans, although Poults and others giving away 100 tickets each doesn’t bode well. Aside from that the rest of the players aren’t regular winners and I just wish they’d be honest and say they’re doing it for the money.
However, I’m not a fan of some of the journalists ripping these players for taking money from Saudi when the PGA Tour were happy to sanction the Saudi Invitational and haven’t gone anywhere near Jack Nicklaus for taking Saudi money for designing golf courses. Not to mention PGA events in China whose own human rights record is diabolical. The hypocrisy reeks.
I don’t blame people like Kaymer, Poulter and the others for taking huge payments just to take part. They’re self employed and they have to live with their conscience.
The main thing this is where LIV sees itself in the future. Can they really pull the big names away from the other tours and have something tangible, if they don’t attract the big names who’s going to want to see past their best players (DJ and Bryson aside) on a regular basis. Centurion is only 15 minutes from me and I’ve no desire to watch the event.
Ok the Saudi and numbers aside, this is the PDC darts breakaway all over and that went well.
Maybe the PGA becomes a feeder series to the big money.
I think it’s odd the criticism of the pay being offered, maybe if the players gave 50% to charity if would be tremendous all around.
Cockroaches
Really liked Poulter and Westwood before this but I'd happily boo them at a tournament now.
Same for me, and given what went into filling the ground under that golf course I imagine it stinks almost as bad at LIV golf tastesI presume they've warned Poulter not to light up a cigarette.
I liked Rory interview today "I've found that doing things just for the money doesn't tend to end well"
Last edited by Chicken Pox; 9th June 2022 at 10:18. Reason: Rory quote added
Good for you I'd do the same. I've been part of trying to raise the profile of Disability Golf in this country for over 10 years. Apart from Justin Rose, Ian Poulter and bless him Mark James. Not one single Tour pro has offered any help or time.
Last edited by wildheart; 9th June 2022 at 11:21.
The PGA tour is stagnant and the product not that great week to week. If the guys playing LIV can still get in the majors then i can see it becoming very difficult for the PGA tour to continue in its current guise. Rory and JT will soon change their mind if they are the only ones left on the PGA.
It will be interesting to see how this all pans out but the PGA Tour maybe should have taken both LIV and PGL a little more seriously.
Ross
https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/06...-releases.html
Battle lines are drawn!!
It’s a shame to see the divisive impact this has had and the whole thing is massively polarising. Lots of heros and villains being made by the press but I can see both sides of the argument and can see the appeal for certain golfers towards the end of their careers.
I’m not against change (as I agree that the game has stagnated a bit) but Saudi money and the new format are not welcome change in my view.
I watched the highlights of the press conference which was painful, the money grabbers got a public grilling which they deserved.
I watched about 10 minutes of the actual tournament on YouTube today and switched it off. The format isn’t appealing to me and I hadn’t heard of a considerable number of the field.
I can’t believe this’ll survive with the field they’ve attracted and there’s just no long term interest if it’s the same group of (mostly average standard) players week in week out picking up pay cheques regardless of performance.
Oh and I expected Sam Horsfield to kick on and start winning some big Tournaments on the PGA Tour- what is he doing in this event?!
I imagine the $200m will top up Mickleson's gambling fund.
So did I.....he obviously does not believe he has it to succeed in the big pond. Bryson joining the gang sums it up for me. £££££££££
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Last edited by wildheart; 13th June 2022 at 10:35.
If the PGA has now kicked these players off their tour I wonder how it will effect the Ryder cup as it’s a points based system for selection and you get those points on the PGA tour ??
So sad to see multi-multi millionaires turning their backs on the very thing that has given them their fortunes.
Saudi oil money is pumped through many branches of sport and corporations, many are disgusted by it until the handout is passed their way.
If I was a pro golfer being offered hundreds of millions over what the PGA could offer then you would have to think about it, same with Football clubs, F1, horse racing... the Saudis are deep in our sport.
One day that oil will run dry and unless they can find an equivalent energy source from sand the money will dry up - literally!
That's exactly why they are trying to diversify and attract tourists to go to SA.
I managed to go there on a work visa with the military and it was amazing I loved it .
Probably one of the safest places on earth because of their intolerance of criminals.
When in Rome,if you don't like their philosophy don't go there but if you do I think you might change your views on how it is ruled.
I did watch a news cast on tourism in the middle east, while its becoming very popular and will keep the money coming in its not a candle to what the oil generates, they are pumping over 10m barrels a day predicted to be 13m very soon plus huge amounts of natural gas, no doubt it will keep their heads above the sand for a long time but its not an endless supply..
Mixed feelings here. I have no problem with pro golfers starting alternative promotions. I do have a problem with pro golfers aligning themselves with a murderer like MBS, and then trying to justify it, while they get enriched by him.
I too have mixed feelings about this. I do wonder if they are getting too much stick for the SA connection - when our government continues to do business with them; as do all the major corporations; no one has blocked the Newcastle takeover etc...
edit to add: my point is not that 'everyone is doing it so they should too'. It is that if the society feels this way, the outrage should be directed at all beneficiaries.
Last edited by Ethos; 11th June 2022 at 21:59. Reason: addition
Richard Bland won £308,333 for his victory at last year's British Masters. Today he got $601,000 for his 3 days work at the first LIV Golf tournament ... $226K for his tied 17th place individual result and $375K for the team runner up prize.
Can't say I blame anyone signing up for that sort of pay day.
As the winner of both individual and team prize, Charl Schwartzel has raked in $4.75m ... !!!
Pat Perez has also signed up today apparently.
I do like the idea that they all tee off at the same time. Makes for better tv. Also fairer to all competing. How many times have you seen in the open, especially in Scotland where the morning tee offs play in fairly calm conditions, the afternoon play in force 6 winds.
This landed in my email inbox yesterday and sums it all up pretty well -
Good Morning,
We are back with the second piece in our new Saturday series! Every weekend, you'll receive my thoughts on something big that happened this week in the worlds of business and finance. Today's topic of choice? The LIV Golf Invitational Series.
Let's get started 🤝
They’re scary mother******* to get involved with. We know they killed [Washington Post reporter and U.S. resident Jamal] Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates.
Phil Mickelson
In case you haven't heard, there's a professional golf tournament going on in London this weekend. But this particular tournament wasn't organized by the PGA Tour. In fact, the PGA Tour has banned any players who participated in this London exhibition.
This London tournament is the first event held by LIV Golf, a new professional golf organization backed by Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund. The same Saudi Arabia that Phil Mickelson described in the first sentence of the above quote.
So what's the deal with this new organization? Why is it surrounded by controversy? Why are big-name pros risking expulsion from the PGA to participate? Let's dive in.
Background
In 1994, the former World No.1 golfer Greg Norman had plans to launch a World Golf Tour independent of the PGA. While his original idea never came to fruition, he was given a second chance in 2022. The Saudi-backed LIV Tour approached him with a new idea (and billions of dollars) to disrupt the PGA Tour, and Norman was sold.
Norman and company pinged golf's biggest names, offering some of them hundreds of millions of dollars to play in this new league. Phil Mickelson was reportedly offered $200M, and Dustin Johnson received a $125M deal.
Hundreds of millions of dollars to play their sport seems like a no-brainer, right?
There were two small issues:
The PGA wouldn't allow players to participate in this tournament (more on this in a second)
Saudi Arabia is known for its... unpleasant treatment of pretty much anyone who disagrees with the royal family
Leverage
Most professional sports leagues have player unions that negotiate on the behalf of athletes. From the NBA, to the NFL, to the MLB, unions have increased minimum salaries, improved health & safety standards, and made sure players receive a fair cut of sponsor and media revenue.
The PGA doesn't have a players union. In fact, it considers its players to be independent contractors that often pay for their own travel, entry fees, and $50 locker room fees. You would think that as independent contractors, professional golfers would at least have more flexibility outside of tournament play than athletes in other sports, but this isn't true either.
Per the PGA Tour Player Handbook, PGA Tour members "cannot participate in other golf tournaments or events on a date when a PGA Tour cosponsored tournament or event is scheduled." And those events are scheduled 47 weeks per year.
Basically, the PGA is an organization that gives its players all of the responsibilities of full-time employees with none of the benefits. This is most evident in its pay structure.
Win, lose, or draw, athletes in other sports get paid to play. Excluding sponsorships, golfers only get paid by their performance per tournament. And yes, the world's best get paid well. But pay rates drop off quickly once you leave the upper echelon of golfers, especially when compared to other sports.
Moses Brown, the 250th best player in the NBA (as determined by fantasy sports rankings on the NBA's website), makes $1.9M.
Meanwhile, the 250th ranked golfer in 2019 (the last pre-Covid year) Robert Allenby, made just $14,715 in tournament earnings.
To be fair, the NBA is projecting $10B in revenue this year, vs $1.5B for the PGA Tour. But still, a league with 6.6x higher revenue is paying its 250th best player 130x as much as the 250th highest ranked PGA golfer. Does not compute.
Golfers don't have leverage, because they lack both a players union and an alternative league. After Phil Mickelson's quote at the beginning of this piece, the golfer continued to elaborate on why he is partnering with LIV:
They’ve [The PGA Tour] been able to get by with manipulative, coercive, strong-arm tactics because we, the players, had no recourse. As nice a guy as [PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan] comes across as, unless you have leverage, he won’t do what’s right. And the Saudi money has finally given us that leverage. I’m not sure I even want [the SGL] to succeed, but just the idea of it is allowing us to get things done with the [PGA] Tour.
Phil Mickelson
The LIV Tour provides leverage. LIV offered Mickelson two times more money ($200M) in one contract than he has made over his entire career from tournament winnings ($100M).
Suddenly, the PGA doesn't have a monopoly on golf's best players.
This week, the PGA announced that players who participated in any LIV events would be suspended from PGA play. Undeterred, 48 players, including Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson, and Sergio Garcia, flew to London anyway.
Getting paid the GDP of a small country to participate in the tournament obviously played a large role in the athletes' decisions, but one aspect of the PGA's ban influenced their moves as well:
The PGA doesn't own the four majors.
The US Open, The Open Championship, The Masters, and The PGA Championship are all independently operated (though the latter does share the same name as the organization). The organizers of these tournaments set their own entry requirements, and the USGA recently stated that all qualifying players would still be welcome at the US Open next week.
The majors are the most prestigious tournaments in golf. For the sport's top players, a ban from the PGA doesn't carry all that much weight as long as they can still play in Augusta and St. Andrews.
Controversy
So why is everyone up in arms about players joining the LIV Tour? Why did Rory McIlroy call out his fellow golfers?
To be blunt: because Saudi Arabia does a lot of bad stuff to a lot of innocent people. In the last decade or so, they have killed a Washington Post journalist for writing articles critical of the royal family, imprisoned citizens for speaking out against the government, and publicly flogged someone for creating an online forum that facilitated anti-Saudi speech. Women are discriminated against, homosexuality is outlawed, and millions are subject to Draconian laws.
So yeah, it's a pretty bad look taking money from these guys. But everyone has a price.
Money and Morals
History has shown that in the world of sports, money and morality operate on a sliding scale.
Three years ago, in response to China's increasing aggression in Hong Kong, Daryl Morey, the general manager of the Houston Rockets, tweeted his support for Hong Kong.
In response, the Chinese Basketball Association suspended its cooperation with the Houston Rockets, and several Chinese media outlets announced they would no longer broadcast Rockets games. Then China halted the broadcast of all preseason NBA games.
Morey eventually deleted the tweet, the NBA made sure to distance itself from his comments, and Lebron James referred to Morey, an NBA general manager with an MBA from MIT who has friends that live in Hong Kong, as "uneducated."
FIFA officials were found guilty of accepting bribes from Qatar to host the 2022 World Cup. The country would have to spend $200B to build infrastructure to support the tournament. With 120 degree summers, the event would have to be rescheduled to November, which would interrupt the Premier League schedule. Qatar barely has a national football team of its own. None of it made sense.
Yet Qatar won the bid anyway. Corruption 101.
Since winning the bid, Sepp Blatter and the rest of FIFA leadership at the time of the selection have been arrested or forced to resign, more and more details of FIFA's rampant corruption have come to light, and 6,500 migrant workers have died during the construction process.
But guess what? Every country is still going to play in the World Cup. Companies are still going to advertise their products to billions of spectators, and fans around the world are still going to cheer for their nations' squads.
The LIV Tour is no different. Yeah, it is being bankrolled by a horrible regime that routinely tortures and kills citizens for having different views and independent voices. But billions of dollars have a way of helping sports organizations overlook these minor transgressions.
What is the NBA's price to ignore China's anti-democracy aggression in Hong Kong? Approximately $5B.
What is FIFA's price to overlook a corrupt bidding process and the deaths of 6,500 workers? Approximately $7B.
What is Phil Mickelson's price for accepting money from a heinous Saudi regime? Approximately $200M.
In the world of sports, morality can be purchased for the right price, and Saudi Arabia has a blank check.
- Jack
I understand why anyone would be tempted by the mega cash on offer but given where it's coming from I hope the venture fails big style.
We really should be standing up to bad guys and not letting them sport wash their reputations.
Interesting to see the PGA have put the flags in centre of every green for the final round of the RBC so they can prove the best golfers still play on the PGA as they are all shooting low 60s, normally flags are tucked away in the final day but not today
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The Ryder Cup is “owned” by the PGA of America (not the PGA Tour) and the DP World Tour. As yet it’s unclear how it’ll play out out from either body.
As an aside, did I see Phil wearing a White Gold Daytona on oysterflex with a Meteorite dial last week? Or was it the Steel and Black dial?
Rumours that various players are going over - Koepka has suddenly changed his Twitter bio and removed the words PGA from it so I’m guessing that’s him gone!
There will be a drip feed of new names this week they reckon. Abe Answer is pretty much confirmed, Xander, Brooks, Hovland are all rumoured.
DP Tour is letting them play this week, if that continues and the LIV guys can get OWGR points, the PGA Tour is in trouble.
Ross
Just shows what money can buy. They're professional sportsmen so I recognise their right to choose but it's sad to see sports being bought solely by wealth regardless of morality and I include all the boxers, F1, football teams etc in that.
Plenty in the media are using the sports washing element to attack LIV Tour whilst seemingly turning a blind eye to all the other Saudi PIF connections with golf. Latest I’ve read is Collin Morikawa could be jumping ship so it will be interesting to see how much venom is directed his way. Koepka is no surprise. Hugely talented player but comes across as a real douche frat boy.
For the PGA Tour this is purely about the potential damage to their product. In reality, and source of funds aside, there should be nothing wrong with having the two tours coexist. The LIV Tour is just eight events. I think the PGA Tour see that once the bigger players make the move the LIV Tour will likely take on more events etc so that the damage to the PGA Tour could be immense and that’s why they are suspending players already.
The real power lies with the four majors. If the breakaway players are allowed to continue to compete in them then the PGA Tour is in real trouble.
Morikawa "pending" and Koepka now confirmed as leaving the PGA Tour.
https://www.skysports.com/golf/news/...ational-series
And Abraham Ancer too....
Koepka is reportedly getting $150 million. Very sad, especially after watching Fitzpatrick’s amazing win. This LIV will tear the guts out of professional golf.
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And the PGA Tour's response to LIV Golf this week after rubbishing the format?
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga...-fall-schedule
Pretty much copy it......talk about lame.
Watch out for the PGA Tour press conference later today but pleased to see that the R&A have taken the right approach for The Open entrants here;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61894178
The sacking of Henrik Stenson as Captain is now going to have massive ramification for the Ryder Cup. Liv is now starting to tear up Professional golf tournaments. Hell of a shame....but money talks.
And blood money at that. Stenson claimed the captaincy was "a dream" - pull the other one. Just goes to show, these players are only out for themselves and for money.
Of course they're out for themselves and money. They're professional players and someone's offered them a huge pile of wedge to play in some relatively meaningless tournaments. There's already golf played in the Middle East, in China and until recently Russia had an event on the European Tour. They're all already taking place in sportswashing, but now LIV have come along with even more money.
It's a battle of the wallets, certainly, but hardly good vs evil.
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