This is the perfect watch, and the highest likelihood that any company will make it is Smiths, because Smiths has watches that fulfill every criteria, EXCEPT one:
Criteria:
1. small, less than 40mm
2. antimagnetic (either a shell, like Smiths does, or antimagnetic hairspring)
3. Sapphire glass
4. 50m WR +
5. no date: I like the casual aspect of pick-up-and-go no-date watches. I don't need the date anyway since I carry a cellphone. Plus imagine if you had a 3 hander no-date at a transit airport: to sync the time to the local TZ is as easy as setting the time backward or forward, and it would be very quick to do. If you had a date and you were going backward several TZs and you were doing it between 9pm and 3am, you would have to set the time forward after 3am, set the date forward 30 days, then set the time forward over 20 hours to the right TZ.
6. hand-wound: automatic watches are not suitable for running and biking because of the stress on the rotor from constant vibration, and the rotor constantly stressing the mainspring.
7. 12 hour bidirectional bezel: technically you can use a 0-60 bezel for 1-12, but when you are tired at an airport, you don't want to mentally calculate what the timezone is. I find it easier to use a 12 hour bezel to substitute for a 0-60 timing, than using a 0-60 bezel substituting for 1-12. Plus it should be bi-directional, because the reason for most bezels being unidirectional isn't really an issue for most use cases - it's only needed for the life-threatening purposes of diving, which doesn't apply for 99.9% of real-life uses of the bezel.
So in other words, Smiths has the PRS-29, which fulfills criteria 1-6, but there is NO WATCH ON THIS PLANET that fulfills all 7! Isn't that astounding? I know I'm not crazy in thinking that a watch with all 5 criteria would make a near perfect watch, because I've been in this hobby for over 25 years, have owned over 30 high-end watches including a Daytona and from every sports watch brand I admire (Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Tag, Seiko, Citizen, Casio, JLC, Panerai, Chopard, Longines, Tissot, Oris and probably a few others), and I really enjoy the PRS-29, but I think the perfect watch would also have a 12 hour bidrectional bezel.
Smiths: please make one? Please?
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 8th May 2022 at 19:23.
6. hand-wound: automatic watches are not suitable for running and biking because of the stress on the rotor from constant vibration, and the rotor constantly stressing the mainspring.
Can you point to any online references in support of this assertion?
Frankly it sounds more than a little dubious given the design basics of automatic winding systems, but always willing to consider any new evidence.
I think that you mean Timefactors. Smiths haven't made watches for years.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Doh, we all know who he means! :-)Originally Posted by Mr Curta
Anyway, if a company is legitimately using a particular trademark or effectively trading as that name, isn't it entirely legitimate to refer to them as that name?
So adopting your logic, can we say that
Breguet
Blancpain
Glashutte
Omega
Longines
Rado
Tissot
Balmain
Certina
Hamilton
and a few others haven't made watches for years?
(They are all brands owned by Swatch of course.)
Just asking.
My point is purely that Smiths is still a very active company and they don't make watches branded as Smiths. Timefactors do, and I wanted to clarify things for the OP. That is all.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
You are not going to get a hand wound with a bezel. Most people who want a bezel would also want it an auto and a screwed crown.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
How about this with a 12H dish* bezel?
SMITHS Referee/Parking watch A470
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ing-watch-A470
* The Rado Captain Cook has a dish bezel
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Yes I know that, but as others said, I am focusing the topic on features on a watch I want to see from Smiths, rather than focusing on the nuances of name ownership and legalities.
You're right, CURRENTLY. I have searched and other than vintage, no-one is doing this. That's why Smiths can fill that spot. I don't think people realized how much people wanted diving watches without dates until the BB58, so it just takes one company to do something a little different from the rest.
Look, every homage company is just dishing out lazy homages without any new functional designs or thought. I like Smiths above the rest because of its real history and because it puts antimagnetic shells in its watches. Yeah - that's it!! The antimagnetic shell for me is enough from a functional perspective because all the other lazy companies could do it too, but they don't bother because they figure the watch buying public are stupid and don't care (which is probably true). I am attracted to watches with thoughtful designs and superlative features that enhance reliability and durability.
But why stop there? Maybe just think a little and extrapolate and think outside the box. I own some really really nice watches, some iconic ones like the Submariner and the Speedmaster Pro, and I have owned a JLC Master Reveil, a Daytona, several Panerais - and I think a watch with those features is a super practical desirable watch.
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 9th May 2022 at 16:54.
Maybe I'll answer your question another way: why do I need to have my watch constantly winding itself? The mainspring of a handwind does not have a clutch, once I wind it - all it does is unwind and as it unwinds, the stress on the movement reduces because the tension of the mainspring reduces. The values of a handwind makes it superior to an automatic for certain use cases: the casual weekender is a great example.
The automatic on the other hand, when used in rigorous activity is constantly being wound. The mainspring clutch is constantly being engaged, and therefore causing unnecessary wear and tear; the mainspring tension on the rest of the movement is at the maximum; the rotor is constantly spinning and causing wear and tear, microdust and so on. What's the value of all of this? Why would I want maximum tension, rotor wear and tear, mainspring wear and tear just so that I don't have to spend 10 seconds in the morning to wind up my watch? Because that's the benefit/cost comparison: winding for 10 seconds in the morning versus additional wear and tear in the movement. You have to decide which you prefer. Is the additional wear and tear a BIG issue? No. It's just an unnecessary and easily avoided issue, because there is a design solution for it.
And yes, many many people wear automatic watches daily even while doing rigorous activity, but the difference is that they service it too. For the "casual weekender" use case, I don't really want to service it that much, therefore I want to reduce the stress on the movement if I can.
Besides, can I find a watch that fulfills all the criteria above EXCEPT is an automatic watch? Yes. So why would I ask Smiths to make yet another one? The PRS-29 is one of the most enjoyable watches I have, and I have rediscovered the joy of owning just a simple 3 hander manual wind watch. I think adding a bidirectional 12 hour bezel (in a new model) would enhance that experience and add some additional use-cases too (give it a travel watch utility, and an on the fly timer).
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 9th May 2022 at 17:25.
Because that's the benefit/cost comparison: winding for 10 seconds in the morning versus additional wear and tear in the movement.
Another potential benefit of an automatic movement surely is avoidance of isochronism effects?
The movement normally remains at or near its optimum state of wind throughout the day whereas a watch wound daily may fall outside the optimum range from a timekeeping point of view. Clearly the degree of benefit will vary from model to model and maybe from wearer to wearer, and in some cases there may be no benefit, but in principle I'd have thought this factor ought to be considered in any cost/benefit analysis.
I'd still be interested in links to any informed articles about the existence and extent of excess wear on automatics worn during sport etc, if anyone can offer any.
There are a number of highly regarded classic movements that have a known issue with wear on the rotor post; the 31xx Rolex comes to mind. However, I would argue that this is an issue with servicing, not design. When properly maintained, the only problem with wearing a watch with a decent movement is the risk of shocks. Anyone who wants a manual so they can avoid servicing shoudln't stop with the middle man, they should just cut to the solution and buy a quartz, preferably a GP 352 with teflon 'jewels'. You can ignore this for decades and be fine.
Or perhaps for complete peace of mind, may I suggest a Nomos sundial. Mine has never been serviced and is as accurate as ever... on sunny days.
https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/collec...subcat-sundial
I'm guessing that the problems with the movements you have in mind, which as you say may not have been serviced properly or frequently enough, would arise from regular long-term wear and not particularly from wear during active pursuits. It may be counter-intuitive but energetic movements of the arm in let's say jogging, it seems to me, don't necessarily engage the rotor more than smaller rotational movements of the wrist say doing the washing up! (Again I would be interested and in no way offended to be proved wrong ..) Shock protection, again as you say, may be a different matter.
I'll pass on the sundial personally.
Last edited by TF23; 9th May 2022 at 23:08. Reason: Typo
Grizzlymambo, can you give us an example of the kind of watch you are imagining. Let's say a watch that is currently an auto but you would like it if it was a manual.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Maybe a 12 hour bezel on the Expedition would fit the bill and call it the "Traveller"?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
For time zone calculations I find it takes @ 1 minute to reset a watches hour hand, then subsequently add or subtract a single digit number from the current time/hour to obtain the time in a different world location. It takes @ 15 seconds longer if I'm wearing my actual GMT watch, a Dreadnought Voyager. It never seems difficult even when "tired and emotional".
F.T.F.A.
The Expedition is not hand wound. How about the "Commander" with a hand wound movement?
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
That would make it more expensive, the only hand wound movement I can currently get is Sellita.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Smiths offering a Piece Unique service would be fantastic, if potentially ruinously expensive for Eddie or the buyer...
How many of these do you think Eddie would sell?
I'm guessing it would be in single digits, but maybe I'm wrong.
Hands up who wants one?
M
Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Doxa 200 t-graph. Admittedly not a 12 hour bezel though.
I love it! ...but it's a bit bigger than the 40mm and less, requested.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Yep they make crisps still…
Remember salt and shake? Never any salt on the crisps until the last few that used to shrink the moisture out of your gums…
Sorry I digress!
Smiths Group is a major engineering business - crisps isn't their thing so far as I'm aware!
They still make precision instruments, etc, but not watches.
The shares are listed in London (SMIN on the ticker) and the company is a constituent of the FTSE-100 index. I used to own a few shares, bought long before I knew about Smiths watches. (So I'm not like Mr Remington who famously bought the company because he loved the products, allegedly!)
Love Smith's crisps!
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
You're thinking of Victor Kermit Kiam II.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Kiam
______
Jim.
2 points:
1. isochronism isn't important in the "casual weekender" use case. The watch can be +10-20s a day and be perfectly acceptable over a 2 day period for me.
2. It's not realistic to ask for any informed article to speak about automatics worn during sports. I looked for them and confirmed my belief that it isn't realistic (because they don't exist). You open up a watch and see something: how can anyone really make any conclusion to the cause of any wear and tear? You'd have to compare a watch that was only worn in the office, versus one that was only worn during rigourous sports. I'd love for someone to make that comparison, and I think a youtube channel devoted to that kind of experiment (like Top Gear) would be great - but no-one appears to care to be interested.
For now, all we can do is rely on what we do know: we do know that the rotor wears out and is the source of microdust, we do know that the mainspring wears out and is also a source of microdust, and we know that when the mainspring is fully wound it puts the maximum amount of stress on the rest of the movement.
The more I think about it, the more I think that it really isn't that important that the watch is automatic, because even though there is a tiny bit more wear and tear, it is so inconsequential on a casual weekend watch that is worn infrequently. I think if all I have is the upcoming Smiths Commander watch, I can fulfill most of my criteria and just live with the missing features. But the point of this post is to shoot for the moon, and ask for everything. I think it's worth the conversation.
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 11th May 2022 at 21:05.
see below answer for a possibility. As for a real-life auto that I would love to see as a manual, I think this:
YES!! If you make it, I would buy it 100%. I think for the sake of proportions, you'd need to increase the diameter of the watch at least 2mm to 38mm so that the bezel doesn't make the dial appear too small. Also: please make the bezel bidirectional. The unidirectional 12/24 bezel really feels silly, and being unidirectional really is useless for most people. Unidirectional doesn't stop a bezel from being knocked off the reference, it just makes it turn in one direction only - and it doesn't really matter which way it turns if you're not diving with it (and accidental turns happens infrequently anyway). I currently have a Yema Superman GMT, and it annoys me that the bezel is unidirectional. Watch companies don't have to make super complicated watches: they just have to put some thought into how it's going to be used (the Omega Spectre bezel is bidirectional, and quite lovely).
I really love wearing my PRS-29 and Everest, but the lack of a turning bezel does reduce the number of use cases. For example, I am going to go camping during summer (and biking also), and one of the things I am thinking about is what watch I want to wear. Near the top of my list is the PRS-29, but the lack of a turning bezel (which I want for timing camp cooking) deters me. Someone suggested I just bring a quartz watch for the biking bit, and I could because I own some of the nicest Eco Drives on the market, but I just don't want to - quartz doesn't do anything for me at all, and I just prefer to wear a nice mechanical watch doing the activities I love.
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 11th May 2022 at 20:22.
It also has a date. I don't mind compromising the size, but won't compromise on date.
If a watch isn't a true GMT watch that can jump hour hands forward and backward and can move the date backward too, then the only sensible alternative is a no-date watch, because to me it's not a big deal to just reset the time.
The so-called "caller GMT' design (eta2893) is just horrible for travelling. Consider this quite valid scenario: you have a connecting flight at 1am on May 11, and you are flying to a destination 3 TZs backward. Using a caller GMT watch, you would have to do the following steps:
1. Set the time to after 3am (because you can't set the time backward between 9pm and 3am)
2. Set the date forward 30 times to May 10 (you need to set the date as second step because the 3rd step moves the time back into the 9pm-3am "date setting danger zone" again)
3. Set the time forward past 12pm to 10pm
4. Wait for 60s for the seconds to sync up before pressing in the crown
Just a really terrible design. Watches don't have to be complicated, they just have to be designed well. Now, is it a big deal to follow the above 4 steps? Maybe not for a watch lover, but I manage Digital Transformation projects, and the main feature we want to implement is user-friendliness - make it intuitive so you don't need a manual to figure things out. I can figure out the above 4 steps and in fact KNOW that such a scenario is possible because I am a watch "expert" - but the average owner of a 2893 watch shouldn't have to know that they need to do these 4 steps for this scenario.
Last edited by grizzlymambo; 11th May 2022 at 21:00.
Smiths Industries
https://m.youtube.com/c/SmithsGroupplc1851/videos
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Thanks - great advertising campaign though, wasn't it!?
Decades later and the one name still sticking in my mind is the name of the brand of shavers they were flogging!
It was your initial post - which didn't mention 'casual weekender' use and included manual wind as a (difficult to fill, in context) condition, specifically because autos were unsuitable for wear 'running or biking' - which led me to query the point.
However, it has prompted a good conversation, as you say, so thanks.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
In an example of the sort of connections that humans enjoy, Smiths (the crisps company) started off next door to my local pub, the Crown in Cricklewood. Yes, the same Cricklewood where Smiths (the industrial conglomerate) used to have a major factory until the 80s.Love Smith's crisps!
Smiths Industries' site was about three quarters of a mile further out of town than the pub. The site is now a TK Maxx and a Wickes, and is apparently set to become yet another housing development.
In a further connection, my grandfather worked for Smiths at the Cricklewood plant during WW2, possibly on bomb timers or similar mechanisms. I have his gold Smiths retirement watch.
(The Crown pub is a rather scenic 19th Century building and has been used by a number of film and tv productions, including Minder. And the more recent hotel built next to it has the tallest revolving door in Europe.)
Last edited by markrlondon; 12th May 2022 at 13:12.
This looks very appealing. Nice size, I like the side profile, like the bezel, the crown, dial. All quite desirable to me.
Eddie
I'll be honest, I didn't expect anything to come of this thread in terms of the (possible) production of a new model but life is full of surprises!
IMO version A looks really good and seems a great size for this style of watch.
In fact, the more I look at it, the more I like it!
38mm, 300M Expedition with a steel bezel option.
Count me in for two of these!
Eddie
I see what you've done there. They look splendid. Both of them, and in different ways.
Eddie
Sorry grizzlymambo, it doesn't look like you are going to get your hand-wound with a bezel.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
I think he'd already more or less thrown the towel in on that point.
The more I think about it, the more I think that it really isn't that important that the watch is automatic ..
He'd be delighted with a 38m Smiths no-date with bi-directional bezel operation, as I'm sure he'll confirm when he drops by!
Last edited by TF23; 12th May 2022 at 17:34. Reason: Typo
I do like this a lot especially the Crown, this would look great as standard on all the current Everest/Expedition/Commando cased 36mm models in my opinion.
Eddie
I've had a rethink on this, maybe 36mm is too small with it having a bezel so maybe the way to go is with the 38mm Commander case (300 metres W/R) and the Expedition dial as shown in the render.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
It does say 38mm in the render.
(That's what I meant by, "I see what you've done there". Meaning, you are going to do multiple dial and hands variations on the Commander as you did with the Everest!)
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
I see that now but I originally asked him to prepare a render based on the Everest and that's what I thought he'd done.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
It might be an idea to retain the red triangle on the bezel of the new bezel-ed Expedition.
To those not familiar, this is the 38mm Commander, with a superior profile to the BB58.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
For me, I think 38mm is the right size. It substantively differentiates it from the 36mm Expedition.
Personally the "perfect" watch I REALLY want is the 36mm Everest with a Polar White dial. How much would it cost to get a prototype dial made up for that ? :-)
I think this bezel idea concept would work better with a Polar White dial instead of cream as well, and definitely in 38/39mm.
I would also prefer a white dial but Eddie doesn't like white dials.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Oh, didn't know that was the case ... big shame ... in particular I think a good 39/40mm homage to the Polar Explorer II 16570 would sell like absolute hot cakes.
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