closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Can bank transfers into a UK bank account be reversed by the sender?

  1. #1

    Exclamation Can bank transfers into a UK bank account be reversed by the sender?

    Or would they need the bank itself to be on-board after any fraud investigation?

    Just wondering if accepting a bank transfer for a car sale is fool-proof? :)

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Typically a same day payment made in the UK can go via two payment routes. One is Faster Payments which tends to be smaller payments althought the limit on this has been increased to £1M. Some banks may have different in house limits for Faster Payments. The other payment network is CHAPS which there is no upper limit on.
    Consumer payments will almost always go via Faster Payments - the payment is made in seconds and cannot be recalled/reversed/revoked so once the money is in your account it is cleared funds.
    CHAPS payments cost much more but are also cleared funds - typical usage is for things like house purchases where your solicitor makes a CHAPS payment. CHAPS payments cannot be recalled/reversed or revoked.

    If the payment is made via Faster Payments then most UK banks are pretty good now at dealing with these transactions real-time so you can make a payment from one bank to another and watch the results go through in real time with the balance updating in real time on either mobile banking apps or internet banking.
    Last edited by chris56; 6th May 2022 at 12:00.

  4. #4

    Red face

    Thank you both! :)

  5. #5
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    24,324
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    Faster Payments - the payment is made in seconds and cannot be recalled/reversed/revoked so once the money is in your account it is cleared funds.
    [...]CHAPS payments cannot be recalled/reversed or revoked.
    Can you comment on BACS?

  6. #6
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,474
    Had this recently when I accidentally transferred funds into a family members account that had been closed, I tried to stop the payment through my bank almost immediately but they can't do it, the family member had to jump through quite a few hoops to get the money sent back to me.
    I would say that as long as you go through one of the recognised methods of transferring money then once it shows as in your account then it's pretty safe, ( just make sure it's in the account and not pending ).

  7. #7
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,787

    Can bank transfers into a UK bank account be reversed by the sender?

    Deleted as incorrect comment provided
    Last edited by joe narvey; 6th May 2022 at 13:49.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Can you comment on BACS?
    Yes I would not accept payment via BACS as there is a recall window. They are also not real-time same day cleared funds as are the other two payment methods I detailed.BACS transactions are submitted in batches used to be overnight but it is now done via FTP transmissions during the day of batches of payments. Value is typically credited later according to the BACS processing cycle when the receiving bank receives the file of transactions from BACS.
    This link describes the service https://www.bacs.co.uk/documentlibra...troduction.pdf

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by joe narvey View Post
    Faster payments uses the BACs system.
    No Faster payments does not use the BACS system Faster payments uses the Link infrastructure. BACS uses the VOCA infrastructure. VOCA and Link merged and are now called VOCA-Link

  10. #10
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    24,324
    Blog Entries
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    Yes I would not accept payment via BACS as there is a recall window. They are also not real-time same day cleared funds as are the other two payment methods I detailed.BACS transactions are submitted in batches used to be overnight but it is now done via FTP transmissions during the day of batches of payments. Value is typically credited later according to the BACS processing cycle when the receiving bank receives the file of transactions from BACS.
    This link describes the service https://www.bacs.co.uk/documentlibra...troduction.pdf
    Many thanks.

  11. #11
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,787
    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    No Faster payments does not use the BACS system Faster payments uses the Link infrastructure. BACS uses the VOCA infrastructure. VOCA and Link merged and are now called VOCA-Link
    Apologies I deleted the comment, I guess not fast enough. I think the phrase is I misspoke, truth is I didnít read the question properly.

  12. #12
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Lincs
    Posts
    1,086
    I seem to recall that Haywood Milton has commented that they can be reversed. No idea how but hopefully he may comment.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by joe narvey View Post
    Apologies I deleted the comment, I guess not fast enough. I think the phrase is I misspoke, truth is I didnít read the question properly.
    No problems - I was responding to MarkR when I noticed your post. I am normally not that quick.

  14. #14
    Craftsman Halitosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    West Lothian
    Posts
    914
    Worth mentioning that I nearly got caught by a fraudster who told me he had made a bank transfer and true enough the funds appeared on my banking app, though on closer inspection it wasn't included in the "cleared funds" balance. Turns out he had walked into a branch and paid a cheque into my account which inevitably bounced a week or so later. Luckily I queried with telephone banking why it wasn't 'cleared' before letting the watch go.

    So no a money transfer cannot be reversed, but make sure it IS a money transfer by checking that it is included in your cleared funds balance.

  15. #15
    Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    5,211
    I remember someone stating that a standing order payment can be recalled within a certain time period. I believe these are sent via Bacs. A fraudster can set up a one time SO, take an item and recall the payment.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using TZ-UK mobile app

  16. #16
    So the moral of the story is to make sure the funds are 'cleared' before acknowledging any payment has been made to your account. Or have I missed a step or two out?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bobc View Post
    I seem to recall that Haywood Milton has commented that they can be reversed. No idea how but hopefully he may comment.
    Sorry i am not sure this comment is helpful and is hearsay. Haywood is an expert on Rolex vintage watches - I am not sure he would put himself forward as a payment systems expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halitosis View Post
    Worth mentioning that I nearly got caught by a fraudster who told me he had made a bank transfer and true enough the funds appeared on my banking app, though on closer inspection it wasn't included in the "cleared funds" balance. Turns out he had walked into a branch and paid a cheque into my account which inevitably bounced a week or so later. Luckily I queried with telephone banking why it wasn't 'cleared' before letting the watch go.

    So no a money transfer cannot be reversed, but make sure it IS a money transfer by checking that it is included in your cleared funds balance.
    Yes in this case the fraudster tried the cheque payin trick. It is not a money transfer. Faster payments and Chaps both deliver cleared funds which will show on your account balance as cleared funds.

    Quote Originally Posted by stefmcd View Post
    I remember someone stating that a standing order payment can be recalled within a certain time period. I believe these are sent via Bacs. A fraudster can set up a one time SO, take an item and recall the payment.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using TZ-UK mobile app
    Correct there is a recall window on BACS - please see my previous post on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    So the moral of the story is to make sure the funds are 'cleared' before acknowledging any payment has been made to your account. Or have I missed a step or two out?
    Yes you need to make sure the payment comes via CHAPS or Faster payments if it does it will show as cleared funds. Faster payments take typically seconds to transfer.There is no recall/reversal or revocation facility for either CHAPS payments or Faster payments.
    Last edited by chris56; 6th May 2022 at 21:49.

  18. #18
    Master blackal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Scottish Borders
    Posts
    5,853
    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    Sorry but this comment is not helpful and is hearsay. Haywood is an expert on Rolex vintage watches - I am not sure he would put himself forward as a payment systems expert.



    Yes in this case the fraudster tried the cheque payin trick. It is not a money transfer. Faster payments and Chaps both deliver cleared funds which will show on your account balance as cleared funds.



    Correct there is a recall window on BACS - please see my previous post on this.



    Yes you need to make sure the payment comes via CHAPS or Faster payments if it does it will show as cleared funds. Faster payments take typically seconds to transfer.There is no recall/reversal or revocation facility for either CHAPS payments or Faster payments.
    Iím pretty sure that HM detailed the scenario and the process involved, of which he was personally involved.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post


    Yes you need to make sure the payment comes via CHAPS or Faster payments if it does it will show as cleared funds. Faster payments take typically seconds to transfer.There is no recall/reversal or revocation facility for either CHAPS payments or Faster payments.
    Thanks

  20. #20
    Master Christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    9,048
    Related question..I recently cashed out a load of premium bonds into a current account. I initiated the transfer on the NS&I website and the funds went. I got a call a day later from NS&I who said the system couldn't verify my name against the current account and my fund were now being recalled to the premium bond account which could take up to 15 days! What system will NS&I be using, how are they recalling money and why does it take so long?

  21. #21
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    13,806
    I remember asking this question of Santander and they stated that once the money was in your account it couldnít be reversed without your approval. They explained that in the event of a clawback the other persons bank would contact your bank, but they could only present you with such a request that you had to agree to it, they couldnít just plunder your money without your approval.

    Sadly I cannot offer advice on the prices of nearly new Rolex

  22. #22
    Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    England and Spain
    Posts
    6,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I remember asking this question of Santander and they stated that once the money was in your account it couldnít be reversed without your approval. They explained that in the event of a clawback the other persons bank would contact your bank, but they could only present you with such a request that you had to agree to it, they couldnít just plunder your money without your approval.
    That is precisely my understanding as well.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Related question..I recently cashed out a load of premium bonds into a current account. I initiated the transfer on the NS&I website and the funds went. I got a call a day later from NS&I who said the system couldn't verify my name against the current account and my fund were now being recalled to the premium bond account which could take up to 15 days! What system will NS&I be using, how are they recalling money and why does it take so long?
    Ok - Confirmation of Payee is part of the fraud checks which the FCA made the six largest UK banks implement, when you attempt to make a payment via Faster payments or CHAPS to a new payee not on your list of approved payees then there is a validation stage. You tell the sending bank the account name, sort code and account number of the payee you wish to send the payment to. The sending bank then sends a message in real time to the receiving bank to ask the bank to check the details i.e. does the account name match the sort code and account number. The receiving bank will send back an indication of full match, partial match etc together with the full account name. You can then check the details and amend to get a full match if appropriate. Some banks do not support this facility - for example Coutts will return an indication that they do not support this facility. Confirmation of payee does not work on BACS so yet another reason not to use BACS for certain types of payment when you want certainty and security.

    NS&I will bank with one of the major clearers and will have probably sent a request to their clearer to pay the funds into an account name, sort code, account number they detailed from your details. For some reason, perhaps something as simple as a partial match their clearer has said the details do not match the account so the funds are being returned to NS&I. The funds were not recalled as the NS&I clearer never sent them due to this mismatch. NS&I systems are probably not that automated and returns will probably be processed manually which is why the returns take so long.

  24. #24
    Master Christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    9,048
    Thanks for the explanation...I spoke to customer services and indeed that's exactly whats going on!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information