From what I've read/ heard aren't some of the poorest now asking food banks for food stuffs that require the minimum amount of cooking time, because they struggle to pay the leccy.Originally Posted by Montello
I heard a Govt. representative today claiming the UK's got the cheapest food in Europe, I genuinely find this very hard to swallow.
As someone who’s always had a weight problem I see some of these people and just think why. The quick food of today is easy to blame but it’s never going to be that simple, we’ve created an environment where kids don’t go out and sit in they’re bedrooms on their phone and games consoles because they don’t want to associate with the others that are in the ever decreasing community open spaces. It’s easy to say that it’s cheaper to eat healthy and it will be if you have the time, but just have a look around a big Iceland freezer section or Herron foods and you’ll see why junk food prevails, quantity over quantity will always win hands down when you’ve not got much money. I wonder how many of these fat kids are feeding themselves as there parent or parents are out working in low paid jobs or zero hour contracts and the kids are nearly feral.
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Bit harsh considering there are links between poverty and obesity. I have a friend who works within addiction and counselling and 7 times out of 10 behind every obese adult will be some kind of trauma. Same as drug addiction etc. Good friend of mine ex GF was child hood trauma and I worked with a 25 stone bloke many years ago whos life fell apart when his mother and father died and turned to food. Both have since turned their lives around (on the outside). Do you think these people are happy? far from it. Life is hard
I’m certain there is but I don’t believe that it’s the cost of food that is the issue.
Correlation isn’t causation.
The reasons are probably lack of education, attitudes and so on …
Individuals' differing gut microbiota and diversity thereof can contribute to their propensities for obesity and lean-ness ... currently subject to much ongoing research.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...s-make-you-fat
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
It;s not so clear cut - whilst the main components might be cheaper, people on very low income often can't afford enough out of their weekly income to buy ingredients e.g bags of flour, yeast etc. Or the energy cost to run ovens. Then add on top of thjis many of them work so many hours that the time and mental effort required to plan a weekly menu is beyond them.
I'm a big believer in persoanl respponsbility but even I can see that poverty can be such that pizzas and fish/chips ends up being the choice.
I'm diametrically opposed to Jack Monroe's politics, but she does have experience at this just go look at the level of planning and skill required to plan a meals on £20 a week which is what some families have after they pay their bills - it's FAR beyond most people's ability, let alone their will. You can see why people give up and buy a 5-pack of frozen pizza from Iceland.
Last edited by Scepticalist; 7th May 2022 at 09:23.
wow that's commitment/ work as you observe unfortunately beyond some folks, although feeding yourself/family healthy, nutritious food should come near the top of the priorities list imho. Perhaps Home Economics needs to return to the school syllabus especially as the cost of living crisis/ food price rises could be here to stay, all the better to prevent diseases like scurvy and rickets, whilst getting by on a tight budget.It;s not so clear cut - whilst the main components might be cheaper, people on very low income often can't afford enough out of their weekly income to buy ingredients e.g bags of flour, yeast etc. Or the energy cost to run ovens. Then add on top of thjis many of them work so many hours that the time and mental effort required to plan a weekly menu is beyond them.
I'm a big believer in persoanl respponsbility but even I can see that poverty can be such that pizzas and fish/chips ends up being the choice.
I'm diametrically opposed to Jack Monroe's politics, but she does have experience at this just go look at the level of planning and skill required to plan a meals on £20 a week which is what some families have after they pay their bills - it's FAR beyond most people's ability, let alone their will. You can see why people give up and buy a 5-pack of frozen pizza from Iceland.
Last edited by Passenger; 7th May 2022 at 11:06.
Great point and industrial processing of food leads to less micro bacteria to help our gut digest and process food.
I'm wondering when these scales for determining obesity were most recently updated and if they reflect the overall size changes to humans in recent history.
It's no secret that in the last 100 years humans have gotten bigger/taller/stronger etc on average (due to many things including nutrition and availability of cheap food etc)... So are these reflective? And probably changing faster than ever.
I saw an article recently that said something like 70% of people in 1st world countries are obese. This can't be possible.
The scale needs to move
Oh yes it can! To misquote Ralph McTell, "Let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets ..." around where I live.
Not sure by what measure actually "obesity" is claimed (BMI in excess of??) but a very very large number of overweight people and plenty who are so big you genuinely wonder how they can function.
It's definitely a UK development of the last 30/40 years, I would say.
Last edited by David_D; 11th May 2022 at 13:20.
On behalf of myself and most of the population on Sales Corner, we thank you for your consideration
Errr … changing the scale don’t magically make fat people thin.
Evolution happens over thousands of years, our bodies are not evolved to cope with the current diet many people have and hence the massive health crisis. The solution is most definitely not to change the scale.
Haha I didn't suggest it would make them thin, but saying 70% of people are unhealthily overweight is a stretch I think. We can't all have body fat percentage of 20%, and slightly more isn't terribly unhealthy. Yes there are obese people no doubt.... But it's not most people. Maybe where you live, but not everywhere.
And although evolution takes place over thousands of years, massive changes have happened over the last hundred. Look at ceiling heights in old buildings, clothes sizes from 50 years ago, antique chairs and furniture, and sporting figure sizes from 100 years ago. There is clear size difference recently compared to 100 years ago.
I have just started researching the wifes and my ancestry and I managed to get the naval records of my great grand father. He was 5ft 2ins. That would make him a midget today.
Not a fat one though?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...fings/sn03336/
"28% of adults in England are obese and a further 36% are overweight."
So, surprisingly, "only" 64% overweight.
True - he was a seaman, poorly paid, heavily worked and fit and healthy.
You are right people are bigger, that’s the problem.
Obesity is one of the biggest drains on the NHS and that is entirely manageable.
Just look at the progress we have made with reducing the health implications of smoking.
A great example of how the emphasis was put on population based solutions rather than blaming the individual.
Maybe so but the level of smoking is tiny compared to its popularity in the 60s and 70s so it works.
With smoking we attacked it from all sides, reducing the places to smoke, strong advertising on dangers, hiding the cigarettes from plain site and taxing, whereas we promote eating and the ease of it, 24 hr delivery by fast food chains and drive thrus, large advertising billboard for the junk, and making sure the chocolate and sweet stuff is right next to the counter in case you missed it on the way round with little ‘junk’ tax.
Thats where we should make gains and then the individuals would have support and a head start, I absolutely love cake, biscuits etc and both my parents are fatties so genetically I am challenged but I refrain with self discipline realising the benefits over risk involved and I am blessed that I enjoy physical exercise, not always, like anyone I have bad days, weeks, months where its hard to motivate but I get amongst it regardless as it would be too easy to sit on the sofa and destroy a tube of Pringles.
The food industry is poisoning you so that the pharmaceutical industry can try and make you better, whilst both line the pockets of governments. Have you worked it out yet?
RIAC
That is exactly what watchstudent was saying (reacting to your "maybe so, but..."). A societal problem requires a societal solution. Although being a MD, he might be considered as having a little expertise on the topic, which in this day and age may disqualify him
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Big tobacco did make huge profits and lined the pockets of government (and still does) but eventually the tide turned.
We have not reached that point yet with obesity but hopefully the same model can be followed …
Plenty of overweight MD’s with associated health problemsThat is exactly what watchstudent was saying (reacting to your "maybe so, but..."). A societal problem requires a societal solution. Although being a MD, he might be considered as having a little expertise on the topic, which in this day and age may disqualify him
RIAC
Of course. Often associated with a reaction to stress, from their time as overworked junior doctors...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I've noticed that hospital nursing staff appear to be more obese than Mr / Ms / Mrs 'Average' ... and thus give the impression they do not follow healthy diets. Too many nurses (male and female) appear to be wearing clothing too tight to comfortably accommodate their bulging over-large bodies ... and I also notice them queueing at the fast food stalls situated on the hospital car park perimeter ... adjacent to the main hospital entrance. Furthermore, inside the hospital reception and OP waiting areas areas are snack vending machines and retailer W H Smith offering and selling far too many tempting quick snacks / sweets / chocolate. I was once referred to a dietician at Addenbrooke's Hospital for dietary advice ref a digestive ailment ... she was grossly overweight and was waxing lyrical regarding what I should avoid eating. I had no faith in her advice ... because she was so fat ... so did not attend a suggested follow-up appointment. Similarly I had no confidence in an obese NHS oral / dental surgeon. The obese nurses likely exercise plenty ... they're on their feet all day walking around wards / corridors / departments ... but I wonder if they have the time or the inclination to improve their diets with a view to losing weight.
Also recall my late father's district nurse who attended to his home nursing needs after abdominal surgery ... including removing his sutures. She was not only very obese but obviously unfit ... being very out of breath and wheezing after walking upstairs to dad's bedroom ... where my father was gasping for a cigarette. His heavy smoking habit had likely contributed to life-threatening abdominal septicemia and pneumonia following his appendectomy ... the hospital had not allowed him to smoke following surgery. My very obstinate father discharged himself from the convalescent ward and was thus receiving district nurse care at home and confined to bed. I witnessed the obese district nurse ... herself also gasping for a fag ... throwing my father a cigarette and then lighting it for him as she also lit hers ... and she then proceeded to cut and remove his sutures ... puffing and wheezing with a lighted cigarette in her mouth ... whilst my father had a good cough as he inhaled his first cigarette after several weeks' abstinence. My father eventually recovered ... and a few months later the obsese chain smoking district nurse was promoted to a senior nursing position.
Last edited by sundial; 12th May 2022 at 10:14.
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
I was "lectured" by a very overweight practice nurse at our local "Well man clinic"! I just smiled, nodded and carried on. She kept waffling on about BMI. Most professional rugby players don't have "healthy" BMI figures! I'm probably three times her age and still battling on nicely thank you!
Absolutely my experience too. My brother was in hospital 4 or 5 years ago and when I visited him I was staggered at the number of obese nurses. One was so fat she was struggling to lean forward to type into her keyboard. She'll probably end up getting taxpayer funded ill health early retirement because of back problems.
Yes, to the above, Montello did seem to just make my point for me while trying to contradict it…
Of course there are fat nurses! Just goes further to make my point about it being a population problem. Yes every individual has a responsibility for what they put in their face but to find a solution to population obesity needs a solution on a population level, not by saying “gosh fatty, why don’t you try to eat less”. At scale, that literally can never work.
Nurses and doctors are pretty good case studies actually. Both are educated, both know what a healthy diet would look like. Yes doctors can be fat, but far less fat doctors than fat nurses, why? Socioeconomics. Salary, dependents, the area you live, culture.
Obesity epidemics occur where a rich nation combines with massive social and financial inequality. The more unequal a first world country is the worse the obesity crisis is likely to be.
UK and USA vs Scandinavia
I wasn’t entirely contradicting your point just highlighting the fact that there is a role for personal responsibility.
It’s all too easy to roll over and say the nanny state needs to fix this problem and do nothing about one’s own predicament.
When talking to an individual person I.e when I see a patient who is obese, absolutely it’s all about personal responsibility, only they can solve it.
When we’re talking about obesity in the whole of the UK, talking about personal responsibility is pointless. It’s a distraction. Not about a nanny state, it’s about equal opportunity to not be obese. If you are 10 and live in a leafy suburb in a nice house with educated parents who had educated parents vs live in a flat in inner city Plymouth surrounded by fast food and empty calories (because companies that sell that shit literally target poor people) with a single parent.
You cannot have a sensible discussion about obesity on a population level without also discussing social and health inequalities. It’s inseparable.
I suspect shift work doesn't help. I've done spells of shift work throughout my life and when you are moving your daily clock around regularly you completely mess up your eating habits.
Can you replace the PM?
It is rare to read someone so articulate and sensible on a forum. Thank you so much for all you do to help people and educate.
This absolutely ^^^
Genuinely a very nice thing to say, thank you!
By and large I think forums are a very bad place to debate etc because so much non-verbal communication is lost! Which is why I only like to really weigh in (pardon the pun) on things I know a little about!
Please also consider genetic factors and also individuals' microbiomes ... currently much research ref latter particularly by Prof Tim Spector's 'Twins Study' ... documented online and in his books ... also via ZOE podcasts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuUMXq8Bzmg
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
I do, I’m a fan of Tim Spector’s work.
Microbiomes probably also affected by stress levels and by extension deprivation. It’s all linked. Key is to look for the bits that have the most leverage. Probably, better paying jobs in poor areas to be honest.
Pleased to hear you follow Tim Spector ... whose work / research / recommendations have been 'dismissed' on this forum. Some prefer their extreme diets to lose weight ... but their weight loss appears to be temporary ... necessitating yet another dose of extreme diet ... possibly ad infinitum. ... which cannot be beneficial for their microbiomes and longevities.
Last edited by sundial; 14th May 2022 at 15:08.
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
I completely agree. Trouble is all too often individuals don’t act because they are deferring to the state, who don’t seem to care about this issue, just look at the condition of Johnson.
We can argue the merits or otherwise of “fat shaming” but Channel 5 are advertising their latest trash offering: “Big Brits Go Large!”. It appears to normalise if not glorify morbid obesity.
Article in the guardian, can't copy linky sorry. Head line below, a good read.
Number crunching: why ultra-processed foods have a calorie problem
a biscuit factory production line.
How we process a calorie depends on genetics, hormones and the food it’s in. The trouble is that 50% of our calories come from ultra-processed foods – everything from biscuits to hummus
Dont eat ultra processed! Fairly easy.
These genetics that make us fat don't seem to have existed a couple of generations ago.
RIAC
Genes are just one factor affecting an individual's propensity to obesity ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJUeecgNXWo. ... scroll forward to 3 minutes and then consider watching / listening to the whole study
"Well they would say that ... wouldn't they!"
Of course they did. Just think of the Venus of Willendorf, Henri VIII, Courbet's baigneuses...
The difference is that they worked harder, were often at the limit of starvation and with little in terms of health care.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
You only need go back 50 years
RIAC
Genes don’t conquer half of the planet in 50 years. Those genetic factors were there. What wasn’t (to that extent) are the triggers : Omnipresent junk food, computers and mobiles, etc.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Sports Illustrated magazine cover, apparently.
[IMG][/IMG]
Last edited by David_D; 18th May 2022 at 01:01.
Perhaps her weight should be lower from purely a health perspective.Sports Illustrated magazine cover, apparently.
[IMG]
I think she kind of looks pretty damn good though. Horses for courses I think!
None of this surprises me frankly. Where I am it seems that so many people are vastly overweight that a slim and fit person is a rarity.
I park on a small trading estate occasionally and there's a Farm Foods there. People go in and out, trolleys full of junk and crap, most so round and podgy I'm surprised they have the strength to get in and out of their cars. It does make one wonder just why they get like that.
I eat very carefullly, do at least four hard gym sessions a week, walk when I can, stand when I can and monitor my calories carefully on my Apple Watch. I often get mistaken for someone in their late 20s, and I'm actually 46.
I'm not saying it's easy, in fact it's very hard. But it's soooo worth the effort! I feel like a million dollars and believe it or not, I actually find that women look at me, and even smile occasionally. That NEVER happened before I got into shape. Never!
It can become a touch obsessive if one isn't careful, but my PT taught me how to carefully focus whilst still maintaining general fitness, and also not burn out; which is easy at the start.
I know it ain't for everyone, but it does dishearten me somewhat when someone who says I look fit/healthy/slim etc asks how I do it, and then when I tell them they immediately say "oh, I could never do that!"
Well, you can, but you just don't want to.
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