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Thread: Food and drink protected designation of origin

  1. #1
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Food and drink protected designation of origin

    Is it just me, or is protected designation of originin reality just 'trade marketing'? Is a Melton Mowbray pork pie better because of where it was made? Is a non-Cornish pasty by definition inferior?

    Thinking about it, I suppose it's because some enterprising chap in England was making and selling kippers as "Arbroath Smokies" and charging a premium for the name. That doesn't change the fact that I'm hugely scepical of 'terroir' making much difference to the taste of a potato.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Is a non-Cornish pasty by definition inferior?.
    Of course, goes without saying.

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    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Is it just me, or is protected designation of originin reality just 'trade marketing'? Is a Melton Mowbray pork pie better because of where it was made? Is a non-Cornish pasty by definition inferior?
    I find that the main reason it is copied is to make it cheaper (and therefore) with inferior products. Buying a Bordeaux red wine doesn't guarantee it will be good but buying a red wine called Bordeaux from the UK would be a guaranteed unmitigated disaster, regardless of its price point.

    [side comment]As an anecdote, in the early 70s Gallo was making a "Chablis blanc" that was quite palatable... provided you did not expect a Chablis!
    I believe there is even an American wine maker that makes a Chablis using Chenin grapes (Chablis is exclusively chardonnay).[/side comment]

    Likewise, a Somerset brie is unquestionably popular enough to sell across this country, but bears no resemblance with its original namesake in terms of taste.

    The thing is, PDO came to this country late, by which time things like cheddar cheese was produced across the country. It is unquestionably a marketing tool IF you're in a position to exploit it. The 2 examples you cited would arguably fit for a domestic market (just), but a Stilton can use it across the world.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    Of course, goes without saying.
    What Seadog said. A genuine Cornish pasty is an item of the very utmost quality, such as the gods themselves feed upon...

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    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    When I lived in Sydney, the Australians called Cheddar Cheese 'Tasty Cheese'.

    I have absolutely no idea if they did it because limited numbers of their shoppers would know where Cheddar was located, or perhaps what Cheddar cheese was, but I did really like their direct and descriptive approach to its rebranding!

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    Master Man of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maysie View Post
    When I lived in Sydney, the Australians called Cheddar Cheese 'Tasty Cheese'.

    I have absolutely no idea if they did it because limited numbers of their shoppers would know where Cheddar was located, or perhaps what Cheddar cheese was, but I did really like their direct and descriptive approach to its rebranding!
    Their choice of branding surprised me when I was there. All totally innocent I'm sure.

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    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Kent View Post
    Their choice of branding surprised me when I was there. All totally innocent I'm sure.
    Are you PDO yourself, by the way?
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

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    For those of us brought up in Cornwall a Cornish pasty is a pasty!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Is it just me, or is protected designation of originin reality just 'trade marketing'? Is a Melton Mowbray pork pie better because of where it was made? Is a non-Cornish pasty by definition inferior?

    Thinking about it, I suppose it's because some enterprising chap in England was making and selling kippers as "Arbroath Smokies" and charging a premium for the name. That doesn't change the fact that I'm hugely scepical of 'terroir' making much difference to the taste of a potato.
    Taste isn't really the issue but you often pay a premium for the source, and it should be protected. You'd rather your Wendesleydale Cheese was made in a Yorkshire Dairy and not in a factory in Slough, or your Harrogate Spring water was bottled in Harrogate and not Scunthorpe.

    Yorkshire puddings are Yorkshire's gift to the world, we can all enjoy those without breaching copyright.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    Taste isn't really the issue but you often pay a premium for the source, and it should be protected. You'd rather your Wendesleydale Cheese was made in a Yorkshire Dairy and not in a factory in Slough, or your Harrogate Spring water was bottled in Harrogate and not Scunthorpe.

    Yorkshire puddings are Yorkshire's gift to the world, we can all enjoy those without breaching copyright.
    Is a factory in Yorkshire (where much Wensleydale likely made) very different from one in Slough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Is a factory in Yorkshire (where much Wensleydale likely made) very different from one in Slough?
    An item made in Slough cannot be called a Yorkshire pudding for obvious reasons. This was one of the good Laws passed by the EU.

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    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Arbroath Smokies - I absolutely agree with, as being "protected designation of origin"

    Looking at the UK list on Wiki - there are far more than I thought -but most appear at first sight to be sensible.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...otected_status

    I think that the ones which have links to the 'terroire' (including seas) - easily fall into my idea of what it means.

    Cornish Sardines - Sorry, shouldn't be on the list. Don't get me wrong, the Cornish fishermen were very clever in 'rebranding' pilchards (a larger stage of the sardine) - to get rid of the 'stigma' of post-war austerity pilchard paste, and to my mind - the pilchard is superior to the sardine as it becomes easier to clean/cook/eat. A stroke of genius! But - it was a rebranding, not some method of catching or area.

    Cornish Pasties - Mmmmm.............. not seeing that any element of their production is peculiar to the region.


    BUT - if "Bury blackpudding" ever makes the cut................. it's time to tear up the list! That stuff is bogging!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    An item made in Slough cannot be called a Yorkshire pudding for obvious reasons. This was one of the good Laws passed by the EU.
    As usual, utter guff from our resident contrarian. Yorkshire pudding does not have any such protected designation and can be made anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Hotel View Post
    As usual, utter guff from our resident contrarian. Yorkshire pudding does not have any such protected designation and can be made anywhere.
    Not according to a Yorkshire couple I know. They seem to regard it as some sort of holy dish.

    I shall inform them of your comments.

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    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Not according to a Yorkshire couple I know. They seem to regard it as some sort of holy dish.

    I shall inform them of your comments.

    Pass on a “don’t be absolute bell-ends” - from me, too!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Is a factory in Yorkshire (where much Wensleydale likely made) very different from one in Slough?
    Absolutely, Google a ‘wensleydale creamery’, you’ll not mistake it for anywhere in Slough.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    An item made in Slough cannot be called a Yorkshire pudding for obvious reasons. This was one of the good Laws passed by the EU.
    Not obvious and why a good law? Can be exactly the same whether made in Hull or Slough.

  18. #18
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    I am with the OP, I think a lot of PDO stuff is protecting an otherwise unwarranted overvaluing of the product.
    And there will often be people at the border of the protected area that are excluded, often to their economic detriment (have a look at the historic record of land pricing in the Champagne area, for instance).
    Then there is the wierdness of not actually being allowed to make Stilton in the village of the same name, despite a recent court action providing evidence that it was historically made there.
    I think I am right in saying that Cheddar could not be protected partly because of the ubiquty of the cheese (as a type), but also because the verb "to chedddar" had become an integral term in the process of cheesemaking, involving the salting, cutting and then stacking/pressing the curds to begin to dry them.
    Incidentally, the Cheddar that is matured in the Wookey Hole caves is delicious.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I am with the OP, I think a lot of PDO stuff is protecting an otherwise unwarranted overvaluing of the product.
    Origin is important, it’s why we place so much value in Swiss watches rather than Chinese ones, even if there’s no discernible difference.

  20. #20
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    An item made in Slough cannot be called a Yorkshire pudding for obvious reasons. This was one of the good Laws passed by the EU.
    Unsurprisingly that's absolute twaddle. They can be made anywhere on the planet and called Yorkshire pudding, although there's a definite knack at high altitude.
    Inform - Educate - Entertain

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    Origin is important, it’s why we place so much value in Swiss watches rather than Chinese ones, even if there’s no discernible difference.
    The points that I make illustrate that origin may be important, but often it may not, and sometimes definitely not.
    Stilton cannot be made where it comes from, where it is named after. This is clearly baloney, especially as the milk and techniques can be identical in Cambridgeshire as in the 3 counties that are allowed to make it.
    And if an area is protected, then that area has a hard line around it, and the external periphery to that line can be (often unjustly) penalised. Which is again very silly.
    Sure, Switzerland and China are very different places, with different values and different economies. But Leicestershire and Cambs? Not really.
    And we all know how little you need to do to state Swiss on your watch, so that too can be argued to be a larely false "protection" in many cases.
    The OP was about food, not watches.

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    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Does anyone know if San Marzano tomatoes have to be grown in the San Marzano region or is it OK for them just to be grown (anywhere) on San Marzano tomato plants?

    If they have to come from the region it seems hard to believe that would be possible given the amount which are produced vs the size of the region.

    Or is it just those labelled 'San Marzano DOP' tomatoes which are the real deal?

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    Smoked Scottish Salmon vs Scottish Smoked Salmon. This was always the one brought up by the food labelling lecturers at university.

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    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Is Scouse pie protected? It bloody should be… although it's actually supposed to be a stew.


  25. #25
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maysie View Post
    Does anyone know if San Marzano tomatoes have to be grown in the San Marzano region or is it OK for them just to be grown (anywhere) on San Marzano tomato plants?

    If they have to come from the region it seems hard to believe that would be possible given the amount which are produced vs the size of the region.

    Or is it just those labelled 'San Marzano DOP' tomatoes which are the real deal?
    The latter. San Marzano is actually a very, very small area (the tomato-producing part). I'd say genuine original DOP are impossible to find fresh other than possibly in Harrod's and the like, as most are used locally by Naples' pizzaioli...
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  26. #26
    Beans from France, Chard from Switzerland?

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    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    IMO it's mostly a load of old guff nowadays as most food is manufactured in factories and it matters not where the factory is situated as long as they use the same recipe.

    One of the main PDO transgressions is surely "Yorkshire tea".

    I very much doubt that they have tea fields up there in that climate.
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    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    One of the main PDO transgressions is surely "Yorkshire tea".
    A marketing triumph though.

  29. #29
    Grand Master Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Hotel View Post
    As usual, utter guff from our resident contrarian. Yorkshire pudding does not have any such protected designation and can be made anywhere.
    Indeed. Only problem is, most people don't make Yorkshire Puddings and don't serve them correctly into the bargain! What they make are buns made of flour, eggs, milk and salt cooked in bun tins! - worse still, they serve them WITH the main meal! On the SAME PLATE!

    Yorkshire Pudding should be cooked in a roasting tin directly under the meat, (beef, pork or lamb only), such that the juices from the meat can drip into, (and significantly enhance the flavour of), the pudding mix as it cooks. It should then be sliced and served, on it's own with gravy, (also enriched with meat juices), and eaten prior to the main meal.

    Best Regards - Peter

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