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Thread: E10 Petrol Issues

  1. #1

    E10 Petrol Issues

    We run an old Vauxhall as a second car for pootling locally around town. It has a 1.0 ecotec engine so struggles to blow the skin of a rice pudding.

    Iíve noticed over the last few months the car is generally harder to start, and we have had either the engine and spanner light on the dashboard intermittently. Usually after starting the car, and then either warning light just randomly drops off sometime after driving.

    Car is worth nothing and canít really leave us stranded as it never goes more than a few miles from home.

    I was thinking it was on its last legs, but then I read about E10 petrol causing a whole host of problems and think this may be the culprit.

    Vauxhall website says the engine is compatible with E10, and it seems to be as the car does drive, but not sure the engine likes the stuff.

    Anyone else have similar problems?

  2. #2
    Master
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    Refuse to use the stuff - doubt you do many miles so try putting the good stuff in and see if the symptoms improve by the end of your second tank full?

  3. #3
    Maybe fill it with e5 (Tesco momentum or v power) and see if it improves.

  4. #4
    Master chrisb's Avatar
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    I'm running both my cars, 2008 Fiesta 1.25 and 2016 Civic 1.8, on E5.
    I tried E10 but it makes them seem gutless.
    Also E10 is apparently more hygroscopic than E5, so if the car sits for longer periods the fuel in the tank absorbs more water from the air. Not much but can affect performance.

  5. #5
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    I run my xc 60 on e5 they recommend doing it when I bought it from the dealers I know if I leave e10 petrol in the lawnmower over winter it wonít start in the spring till I put fresh fuel in never had that years ago

  6. #6
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    With the current sky high prices I feel the 10p difference between E5 and E10 a no brainer. Even the fuel companies admit the calorific value of E10 is less than E5. In the realm of motorcycles where I have two, both running E5 owners are talking about a 15% reduction in miles covered when using E10. So 10p on 170 is worth the extra if a 15% improvement can be realised.

    The hygroscopic nature referred above is a nightmare on classic bike carbs as the ethanol forms a solution which corrodes the mixed metal parts deep inside the carbs. Remember some classic bikes have 4 carbs!

  7. #7
    As soon as i started using that stuff im sure my car hates it but i cant put my finger on anything specific

    Maybe it is imagined, i dont know.

    Looking at some of these replies though i think its probably just s##t fuel

  8. #8
    I noticed my filler flap started to look really rough after using E10 but my car seems to run really well on it, strange.


  9. #9
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    Fill it with e5 and some fuel system cleaner


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  10. #10
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    I've noticed a difference on mpg and performance using E10. A friend also said it has affected his Honda petrol mower.
    Only 4p difference so it's E5 from now on.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I've noticed a difference on mpg and performance using E10. A friend also said it has affected his Honda petrol mower.
    Only 4p difference so it's E5 from now on.
    E10 lacks in many ways sadly and will mean lower economy


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  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=higham5;597375

    The hygroscopic nature referred above is a nightmare on classic bike carbs as the ethanol forms a solution which corrodes the mixed metal parts deep inside the carbs. Remember some classic bikes have 4 carbs![/QUOTE]

    Can you explain this?

    What do you mean when you claim that the ethanol forms a solution? Are you saying that a separate ethanol/ water phase separates out?

    Iíve read the anecdotal claims but Iíve yet to see a rational explanation if whatís really going on, just people repeating what theyíve read elsewhere.

    Despite my own background Iím still struggling to understand the corrosion claims, if a separate phase is formed I can see that being corrosive in the bottom of a fuel tank but that scenario has existed prior to tge introduction of ethanol in fuel. Indeed, the higher proportion of ethanol us likely to decrease the chances of a separate phase forming, the ethanol/hydrocarbon mixture can Ďholdí more water before a separate phase us formed but that doesnít necessarily equate to the resultant single phase system being more corrosive!

    Having driven my wifeís Ford Focus 1.5 ecoboost (182 bhp turbo) recently I canít tell any difference in performance since the change to e10 fuel and weíre not seeing any change in fuel economy........but thatís purely anecdotal!

    Lots of claims being made regarding the negative impact of e10, Iíd prefer to see some hard data including corrosion test results. Until then Iíll reserve judgement.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I've noticed a difference on mpg and performance using E10. A friend also said it has affected his Honda petrol mower.
    Only 4p difference so it's E5 from now on.
    Bloomin eck, my Honda mower has always been a super starter. Used it the other day and I struggled to get it going with I thought was odd. Well now I know, Iíd just bought a new jerry can of E10, filled the mower and thought nothing of it. Got to be the E10 because nothing else has changed. Iíll monitor it next time I use it and if needs be go back to E5. Thanks for highlighting this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Can you explain this?

    What do you mean when you claim that the ethanol forms a solution? Are you saying that a separate ethanol/ water phase separates out?

    I’ve read the anecdotal claims but I’ve yet to see a rational explanation if what’s really going on, just people repeating what they’ve read elsewhere.

    Despite my own background I’m still struggling to understand the corrosion claims, if a separate phase is formed I can see that being corrosive in the bottom of a fuel tank but that scenario has existed prior to tge introduction of ethanol in fuel. Indeed, the higher proportion of ethanol us likely to decrease the chances of a separate phase forming, the ethanol/hydrocarbon mixture can ‘hold’ more water before a separate phase us formed but that doesn’t necessarily equate to the resultant single phase system being more corrosive!

    Having driven my wife’s Ford Focus 1.5 ecoboost (182 bhp turbo) recently I can’t tell any difference in performance since the change to e10 fuel and we’re not seeing any change in fuel economy........but that’s purely anecdotal!

    Lots of claims being made regarding the negative impact of e10, I’d prefer to see some hard data including corrosion test results. Until then I’ll reserve judgement.
    Its not hard , petrol + ethanol. Ethanol is hydroscopic so it it is freely miscible in water. Now you have a solution of three components. In the carburettor both petrol and ethanol are fugitive. So over winter or a period of time they evaporate leaving water in the small jets and airways. Carburettor manufacturers didnt expect ( in the 60’s 70’ & 80’s) water to be inside the carbs as there is lots of multimetal contact , steel brass aluminium. Hence corrosion.

    Comparing a Ecoboost engine with a dynamic ECU is not quite the same as a classic engine with fixed fuelling.
    Last edited by higham5; 15th April 2022 at 07:44.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    We run an old Vauxhall as a second car for pootling locally around town. It has a 1.0 ecotec engine so struggles to blow the skin of a rice pudding.

    Iíve noticed over the last few months the car is generally harder to start, and we have had either the engine and spanner light on the dashboard intermittently. Usually after starting the car, and then either warning light just randomly drops off sometime after driving.

    Car is worth nothing and canít really leave us stranded as it never goes more than a few miles from home.

    I was thinking it was on its last legs, but then I read about E10 petrol causing a whole host of problems and think this may be the culprit.

    Vauxhall website says the engine is compatible with E10, and it seems to be as the car does drive, but not sure the engine likes the stuff.

    Anyone else have similar problems?
    Next time it refuses to start keep your eye on the rev counter . If it dosnt move at all replace the crank position sensor . Common failure on these but I would get a qualified technician to check it 1st before spending money

  16. #16
    Craftsman
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    Pretty sure that engine is known for eating coil packs as well

    I dont use E10, i lost 10mpg in my car when it came out so its a no brainer for me, same for my mum in her car.

  17. #17
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    As the owner of a classic car (MGB) Iím interested and concerned about potential problems. To date, I havenít used e10 in the MG because the car needs work and isnít in use at the moment. Iíll run it on e10 and see how it goes. I have a Honda petrol lawn mower that will be getting its first dose of e10 v. shortly, I find it hard to believe itíll make a noticeable difference but Iíl find out!

    Regarding classic cars and bikes, which spend more time being stored for long periods, evaporation of volatile components from the fuel can be an issue, this is well- known. However, Iím still struggling to understand how changes to the fuel during storage is causing formation of a more corrosive system and Iíd be keen to see some data if it exists. It would be interesting to compare the conductivity of e5 vs e10 and to monitor changes as the fuel ages. Based on the anecdotal evidence the new fuel is linked with corrosion issues but has anyone really got to the bottom of this? I suspect not, I can think of several ways to study this but I no longer have access to facilities to do so.

    First test for me will be the lawnmower! Itís almost out of fuel so itíll be changing from e5 thatís been stored all winter to fresh e10. If I observe any differences Iíll be surprised, storage issues next winter is another matter.

  18. #18
    Master
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    I wouldn’t run your MGB on E10.

    This spells out all the potential issues.

    https://www.mgcc.co.uk/e10-fuel-what-you-need-to-know/

  19. #19
    In my MR2 I use E5 Shell V-Power ULD and a squirt of Redex each fill, hopefully keeps fuel problems away.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    In my MR2 I use E5 Shell V-Power ULD and a squirt of Redex each fill, hopefully keeps fuel problems away.
    Exactly what I do!

  21. #21
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    Minimal price difference makes E5 a no brainer, as previously stated. I am sure the higher MPG and lower chance of engine issues vastly weighs in it's favour

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    As the owner of a classic car (MGB) Iím interested and concerned about potential problems. To date, I havenít used e10 in the MG because the car needs work and isnít in use at the moment. Iíll run it on e10 and see how it goes. I have a Honda petrol lawn mower that will be getting its first dose of e10 v. shortly, I find it hard to believe itíll make a noticeable difference but Iíl find out!

    Regarding classic cars and bikes, which spend more time being stored for long periods, evaporation of volatile components from the fuel can be an issue, this is well- known. However, Iím still struggling to understand how changes to the fuel during storage is causing formation of a more corrosive system and Iíd be keen to see some data if it exists. It would be interesting to compare the conductivity of e5 vs e10 and to monitor changes as the fuel ages. Based on the anecdotal evidence the new fuel is linked with corrosion issues but has anyone really got to the bottom of this? I suspect not, I can think of several ways to study this but I no longer have access to facilities to do so.

    First test for me will be the lawnmower! Itís almost out of fuel so itíll be changing from e5 thatís been stored all winter to fresh e10. If I observe any differences Iíll be surprised, storage issues next winter is another matter.
    My mower ran like a bag of spanners on e10 so e5 stays in the mower and the car


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  23. #23

    E10 Petrol Issues

    My Hayter mower runs fine on E10, and started up first time last month with 5 month old petrol in the tank.

    I havenít run my cars or bikes on anything less than super for years. High performance older motors were designed for the higher octane.

    I also have issues with devoting huge amounts of arable land to produce the ethanol for E10.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    I noticed my filler flap started to look really rough after using E10 but my car seems to run really well on it, strange.

    ?? Do you stand a few feet away and spray fuel in the general direction of the filler?
    Dont understand why it makes a mess of your filler flap?

    Unless this was tic - which it probably was and gone over my head......whoosh! ;-)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    ?? Do you stand a few feet away and spray fuel in the general direction of the filler?
    Dont understand why it makes a mess of your filler flap?

    Unless this was tic - which it probably was and gone over my head......whoosh! ;-)
    I thought similar to be fair, like the water cannons & balloons you inflate at the fun fair!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallyuk View Post
    Minimal price difference makes E5 a no brainer, as previously stated. I am sure the higher MPG and lower chance of engine issues vastly weighs in it's favour
    That may be true at the moment but E5 is likely to become scarcer in the future as demand drops.

    There seems to be two clear issues; the effects on classic vehicles and the drop in MPG/performance on moderns. The potential problems with classics is a concern for me, I managed to find some studies referring to corrosion and there does seem to be evidence for it, but whether that translates into damaging vehicle parts isn`t so clear.

    This all reminds me of the debates surrounding lead-free petrol when it was introduced, much of the concern turned out to be spurious. Meanwhile, I`ll keep an open mind, I`ve no wish to spend more on petrol than I need to and I`ve certainly no need to embrace the 'warm feeling' aspect of putting the dearer stuff into my vehicles in the belief that it might somehow be better. If there's a problem I`ll deal with it, if not I won't, when I`ve got the inclination I`ll read a few of the studies/reports on the subject with a critical eye.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    ?? Do you stand a few feet away and spray fuel in the general direction of the filler?
    Dont understand why it makes a mess of your filler flap?

    Unless this was tic - which it probably was and gone over my head......whoosh! ;-)
    I think standing a few feet away and spraying fuel all over the place would be rather silly, don't you ?

    This happened after using E10 for a couple of months and believe it or not with the end of the pump pushed well into the car fuel pipe when filling up, the norm for me, don't know about you ? :)

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    I thought similar to be fair, like the water cannons & balloons you inflate at the fun fair!
    I really find it hard to believe that an adult (I assume ?) could imagine that ???

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    I think standing a few feet away and spraying fuel all over the place would be rather silly, don't you ?

    This happened after using E10 for a couple of months and believe it or not with the end of the pump pushed well into the car fuel pipe when filling up, the norm for me, don't know about you ? :)
    Something being rather silly never stopped anyone trying it, as far as I know. ;-)


    That's bizarre. I've been using E10 in 2 of our cars since it was introduced (was that mid-late last year?) and haven't noticed any difference in the cleanliness of the filler area - and I'm not one to wash my cars that regularly and when I do, don't usually open the filler cap to wash inside (I know, shock horror!). So certainly would have noticed that.

    What I have noticed is that they are a bit down on mpg but put that down to the usual seasonal variations.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    I really find it hard to believe that an adult (I assume ?) could imagine that ???
    #humourbypass


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  31. #31

    E10 Petrol Issues

    So, the wife ran down the tank to empty of her Vauxhall Agila and filled the tank up half way with the expensive juice.

    As soon as she turn the key she said it is like night and day.

    Car is running beautifully now. Will give the E10 stuff a miss from now on.

    Even thought the super unleaded is much more expensive, she said her mpg had dropped so much on E10 that the better stuff is cheaper overall.

  32. #32
    Costco super is sold at 162.7 or something. Around 25p cheaper than local super

  33. #33
    Craftsman Ax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Even thought the super unleaded is much more expensive, she said her mpg had dropped so much on E10 that the better stuff is cheaper overall.
    May be more eco friendly as well then?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oiljam View Post
    Bloomin eck, my Honda mower has always been a super starter. Used it the other day and I struggled to get it going with I thought was odd. Well now I know, Iíd just bought a new jerry can of E10, filled the mower and thought nothing of it. Got to be the E10 because nothing else has changed. Iíll monitor it next time I use it and if needs be go back to E5. Thanks for highlighting this.
    We use Aspen 4 in our mower and strimmer/hedgetrimmer. Apparently popular with some classic bike owners as well. Not cheap though

    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    We use Aspen 4 in our mower and strimmer/hedgetrimmer. Apparently popular with some classic bike owners as well. Not cheap though

    Classic bike lads use that as a precursor to winterising the bikes. Run a few litres through the carbs, then lay up for the salty season. In March April the bikes fire up and none of the ethanol corrosion and gumming in the ďold skoolĒ carbs.

  36. #36
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    Best cost effective premium by far is Tesco
    Momentum I think. I always fill there or my local Esso/shell and no discernible difference, sometimes shell is comparable on price but Esso always more expensive for the same MPG, e10 is dishwater by comparison .. itís like the difference between a fine stout and carling


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  37. #37
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    No issues using E10 in car and bike. Still working well with no loss of performance or MPG. Lots of hogwash being told about the so called horrors of E10.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by K-Z1R View Post
    No issues using E10 in car and bike. Still working well with no loss of performance or MPG. Lots of hogwash being told about the so called horrors of E10.
    Depends what you drive or ride.

    I only use super in my M5. My two bikes are the same, but one is 38 years old and runs on carburettors so no chance of letting E10 rot them out.

    E10 is fine for the lawnmower but nothing performance.

    I wonder what the thoughts are about what is the best super? For years I have sworn by V-Power but the RON is now 97, whereas Tesco Momentum is 99. The Esso super in many places has no ethanol content at all. For those drivers of performance vehicles, what suits your needs best?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Depends what you drive or ride.

    I only use super in my M5. My two bikes are the same, but one is 38 years old and runs on carburettors so no chance of letting E10 rot them out.

    E10 is fine for the lawnmower but nothing performance.

    I wonder what the thoughts are about what is the best super? For years I have sworn by V-Power but the RON is now 97, whereas Tesco Momentum is 99. The Esso super in many places has no ethanol content at all. For those drivers of performance vehicles, what suits your needs best?
    John you are right about locations for the best super. Esso Super in Lancashire was 99 ron, wheras Esso Super in N.Wales is 95. Different refineries maybe. Im sure GOAT on here mentioned many fuels were the same on the road car , but at the point of filling the tanks ingredients were added to distinguish the fuel grade. I maybe wrong though

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by higham5 View Post
    John you are right about locations for the best super. Esso Super in Lancashire was 99 ron, wheras Esso Super in N.Wales is 95. Different refineries maybe. Im sure GOAT on here mentioned many fuels were the same on the road car , but at the point of filling the tanks ingredients were added to distinguish the fuel grade. I maybe wrong though
    Blimey, so if the super is 95 RON, what is the standard unleaded?!

  41. #41
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    E10 Petrol Issues

    I think he means 97. Anyone remember the super turbo 102 octane
    Last edited by Middo; 30th May 2022 at 11:07.

  42. #42
    An unscientific experiment I know, but I rode into Sheffield this afternoon to get some Tesco Momentum for my VF1000R.

    Most petrol stations in the Derbyshire Dales do not even have super, and when they do, it is always bog standard 97 RON stuff - a couple of litres of which were still in the VF.

    I am sure it ran better on the 99 RON juice. It pulled harder and revved freer to my mind.

  43. #43
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    The 99 RON synergy supreme at most Esso garages is ethanol free https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol. I use that for cars and the lawnmower and then Aspen 2 for handheld garden equipment as it generates less fumes.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    As the owner of a classic car (MGB) Iím interested and concerned about potential problems. To date, I havenít used e10 in the MG because the car needs work and isnít in use at the moment. Iíll run it on e10 and see how it goes. I have a Honda petrol lawn mower that will be getting its first dose of e10 v. shortly, I find it hard to believe itíll make a noticeable difference but Iíl find out!

    Regarding classic cars and bikes, which spend more time being stored for long periods, evaporation of volatile components from the fuel can be an issue, this is well- known. However, Iím still struggling to understand how changes to the fuel during storage is causing formation of a more corrosive system and Iíd be keen to see some data if it exists. It would be interesting to compare the conductivity of e5 vs e10 and to monitor changes as the fuel ages. Based on the anecdotal evidence the new fuel is linked with corrosion issues but has anyone really got to the bottom of this? I suspect not, I can think of several ways to study this but I no longer have access to facilities to do so.

    First test for me will be the lawnmower! Itís almost out of fuel so itíll be changing from e5 thatís been stored all winter to fresh e10. If I observe any differences Iíll be surprised, storage issues next winter is another matter.

    You will regret using it on both the mower and the MGB. Everyone in my circle has had problems and the science says you will too - it's hydrophilic or hygroscopic take your choice. I wouldn't use it on any of my machines. We have tested it on a donor car (ford 1600 twin cam and Mk5 Golf GTI) over several miles and the mpg is lower on E10 to boot. Twin Dellorto's on the ford are just not compatible and need rejetting.

    The motorcycles are a much longer story and even worse;

    unless you have a low price worthless S*** box that you care nothing for.

    B

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatdogwood View Post
    The 99 RON synergy supreme at most Esso garages is ethanol free https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol. I use that for cars and the lawnmower and then Aspen 2 for handheld garden equipment as it generates less fumes.
    This is true even though the legislation requires it to display E5 at the pump.

    Highly recommended for mid to older Aston's


    B

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Middo View Post
    I think he means 97. Anyone remember the super turbo 102 octane
    Iím my early career while refuelling Aircraft when we checked AVGAS for water contamination in the mornings, the samples went into our cars. That was 100 but sometimes we got batches of 120 for a couple of things with Merlins in them that didnít work so well in car engines ?? then a lot of mixing took place. Still killed the engines but it was a fairly easy change from the scrappy.


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  47. #47
    Here's an interesting observation.

    My car does very few miles annually. Brimmed in Dec with e10 and some fuel stabilizer.

    Recently took it on a 1,100 mile road trip after sitting for 5 months.

    1st tank BP premium , 45 mpg ran like a dog.
    2nd tank filled up regular from a small filling station 50 mpg, ran better
    3rd tank Tesco regular, 55mpg ran fine.

    I was surprised at that.

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by farquare View Post
    Here's an interesting observation.

    My car does very few miles annually. Brimmed in Dec with e10 and some fuel stabilizer.

    Recently took it on a 1,100 mile road trip after sitting for 5 months.

    1st tank BP premium , 45 mpg ran like a dog.
    2nd tank filled up regular from a small filling station 50 mpg, ran better
    3rd tank Tesco regular, 55mpg ran fine.

    I was surprised at that.

    Sent from my Lenovo K12 Note using Tapatalk
    Could just be the injectors being cleaned with the first couple of fills.


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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by farquare View Post
    Here's an interesting observation.

    My car does very few miles annually. Brimmed in Dec with e10 and some fuel stabilizer.

    Recently took it on a 1,100 mile road trip after sitting for 5 months.

    1st tank BP premium , 45 mpg ran like a dog.
    2nd tank filled up regular from a small filling station 50 mpg, ran better
    3rd tank Tesco regular, 55mpg ran fine.

    I was surprised at that.

    Sent from my Lenovo K12 Note using Tapatalk
    Some other variables have influenced this behaviour.

    Have to smile at Brianís inference that I donít care about my machines! Having spent a career in the chemical industry in a scientific function I donít gave a problem with the science either.

    I did a bit if reading in an attempt to understand the potential corrosion issues, nothing seemed to equate with the adverse effects people are claiming.

    Iím trying to remain objective and open- minded, Brian doesnít seem to like that! Rest assured, like my watch collection my classic car is at the opposite end of the scale to worthless shit!

    Unfortunately, for several reasons my MG still isnít getting used so I canít comment on whether it likes e10 or not, but I can confirm that the Honda lawnmower seems perfectly happy.

    One point I do worry about us the consistency of e10 and whether the ethanol content will vary, if minor adjustments to carburettor settings or jetting are required this will be a problem.

  50. #50
    Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    3,158
    I can’t believe we are at 48 comments . Its simple , if you run a carburettor bike or car with no ecu then E10 is rubbish. Use Super/ Premium/ exceptional whatever they call it , but buy the best you can.

    Secondly, winter time if winterising a classic vehicle either, drain the fuel system carbs tank , use a stabilizer such as Briggs and stratton fuel fit or use Aspen. End off

    E5 rots neoprene fuel pipes , embrittles o ring in the carb and generally screws up carbs when left over winter.

    I have removed fuel lines supposedly ethanol proof from bikes after two years. You could use them as coat hangers they are that stiff.


    Forget waiting for the scientific facts, E10 is here and as an owner of multiple classic vehicles I have seen first hand the chaos it causes.

    Sorry guys rant over.
    Last edited by higham5; 1st June 2022 at 20:16.

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