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Thread: stolen rolex

  1. #1
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    stolen rolex

    on 20 Dec 2011 i bought a pre owned Rolex Datejust from Goldsmiths

    it had been serviced by Rolex on 20 September 2011

    i have the Rolex service card and original receipt

    a week ago i sent said watch back to Rolex for a service via my AD and today i was informed the watch is reported as stolen

    so Rolex are holding the watch

    an insurance claim was made in 2015 about the watch being stolen and was paid out by the insurers (i think Direct Line)

    today i spoke to Kevin Newton at Lost Management Group who represent the insurers who paid out

    i want my watch back as i have proof it was legally bought four years before the claim was made

    what do you think?

    thanks

  2. #2
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    Nemo dat quod non habet.

    No person gives that which he does not have.

    These situations have a number of key triggers and I would want to know more facts before a definitive conclusion, but neither you nor the retailer may ever have had good title to the watch.

    Possession of the physical item is not the same a having good title to it.

    If the watch had been stolen before you or indeed the retailer bought it, then title would remain with the victim or perhaps their insurer.

    However well-intentioned and innocent both subsequent retailer and buyer, under UK law the former would never have acquired title and it could not in turn pass to the latter. Even the six year statute of limitation does not apply in matters of title.

    If that is the case, I have no doubt that the retailer would do the right thing and reimburse you, although you might well argue that a replacement watch would be fairer as values have changed so much.

    This situation should be a wake up call to all those who are so happy to buy from private sellers. What would THEY do under similar circumstances?

    As for the late reporting or sharing of data between police, insurers and various databases, it is a very regrettable problem......but it does not change the position with regard to title.

    Of course, it is equally possible that the insurance claim was fraudulent or "mistaken." If the watch were genuinely sold by the claimant or someone acting with their permission, then title did pass and it is only the insurance claim which could be the subject of legal dispute. The watch in these circumstances would remain yours, as title WOULD have passed correctly along the line.
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 22nd March 2022 at 12:51.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    I don’t think you will get the watch back (the insurer may sell it to you, it is the insurance companies property)
    If you have a the paperwork to support the purchase your recourse is with them. You will need to get your money back from the seller, and back up the chain it will need to go.
    Sorry it’s a total ball ache situation to be in.

    Edit re read the OP
    I am presuming you did not make the claim as such it’s a fraudulent claim by someone else and therefore you need to talk to the insurer, this should be simple as you have the supporting documents.
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 22nd March 2022 at 12:52.

  4. #4
    Something doesn’t seem right here. The insurance claim was made four years after you bought the watch. If you have all the paperwork to back you up I would talk to the insurance company and ask if they can investigate more, looks like a possible fraudulent claim to me. The insurer will also, hopefully, speak to the retailer to find out who they bought the watch from.

  5. #5
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    I'm at a loss here:

    The OP bought the watch in 2011, and it has been in his posession since that year.

    BUT

    A theft loss was made by someone in 2015????

    I'm not seeing that the 'owner' in 2015 actually had a Rolex?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    I don’t think you will get the watch back (the insurer may sell it to you, it is the insurance companies property)
    If you have a the paperwork to support the purchase your recourse is with them. You will need to get your money back from the seller, and back up the chain it will need to go.
    Sorry it’s a total ball ache situation to be in.

    sorry but the facts

    Rolex UK serviced the watch on 20 September 2011 - i have the card

    its was not reported stolen at the time

    i bought the watch from Goldsmiths,Clumber Street Nottingham at 09:09:19 on 20 December 2011

    again i have the receipt

    the claim about it being stolen was in 2015 - go figure?

    so by logic the original owner kept some paperwork allowing the fraudulent claim of theft to be made?

    the insurer who paid out did not do due diligence and i'm supposed to put up with this?

    i'll happily take this to court

  7. #7
    Doesn't it sound like whoever claimed in 2015 committed insurance fraud after having sold the watch to Goldsmiths in 2011 they decided for a "double bubble" on the watch.

    Surely in 2011 when the OP bought it, Goldsmiths did in fact have good title to the watch and that was passed to the OP then ?

    The fact that the previous owner was either a crook or possibly someone made a typo on an insurance claim in 2015 shouldn't mean the OP loses their watch ?

    I know we can scoff at the importance of the "box & papers" but the presence of these must make this sort of fraud a lot trickier to perpetrate ?

  8. #8
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    It can happen.

    Watch is lost, but owner cannot find papers etc.

    Several years later the papers etc are found sufficient to finalise claim, whereupon watch is finally added to stolen list.

    Equally, insurers and databases DO make mistakes. This is definitely a case where the full facts need to be known before a conclusion reached.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    Something doesn’t seem right here. The insurance claim was made four years after you bought the watch. If you have all the paperwork to back you up I would talk to the insurance company and ask if they can investigate more, looks like a possible fraudulent claim to me. The insurer will also, hopefully, speak to the retailer to find out who they bought the watch from.
    Goldsmiths from who i bought the watch have been very helpful and have spoken to Rolex

    unfortunately they do not have the 'paperwork' that far back

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    sorry but the facts

    Rolex UK serviced the watch on 20 September 2011 - i have the card

    its was not reported stolen at the time

    i bought the watch from Goldsmiths,Clumber Street Nottingham at 09:09:19 on 20 December 2011

    again i have the receipt

    the claim about it being stolen was in 2015 - go figure?

    so by logic the original owner kept some paperwork allowing the fraudulent claim of theft to be made?

    the insurer who paid out did not do due diligence and i'm supposed to put up with this?

    i'll happily take this to court
    It may be maddening and I sympathise greatly, but I know KN and he is a brilliant guy. You will be fairly treated and I would suggest calmly waiting for the full facts to be shared. The law on title is clear enough. At the moment, all the details we need against which to apply it are not.

  11. #11
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    sorry but the facts

    Rolex UK serviced the watch on 20 September 2011 - i have the card

    its was not reported stolen at the time

    i bought the watch from Goldsmiths,Clumber Street Nottingham at 09:09:19 on 20 December 2011

    again i have the receipt

    the claim about it being stolen was in 2015 - go figure?

    so by logic the original owner kept some paperwork allowing the fraudulent claim of theft to be made?

    the insurer who paid out did not do due diligence and i'm supposed to put up with this?

    i'll happily take this to court
    I think you have to take it to court, you should not be out of pocket for a fraudulent claim. If you have the receipts to support this it should be straight forward.
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 22nd March 2022 at 13:00.

  12. #12
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    What Haywood said.

    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    sorry but the facts

    Rolex UK serviced the watch on 20 September 2011 - i have the card

    its was not reported stolen at the time

    i bought the watch from Goldsmiths,Clumber Street Nottingham at 09:09:19 on 20 December 2011

    again i have the receipt

    the claim about it being stolen was in 2015 - go figure?

    so by logic the original owner kept some paperwork allowing the fraudulent claim of theft to be made?

    the insurer who paid out did not do due diligence and i'm supposed to put up with this?

    i'll happily take this to court
    Like it or not, late reporting or not, you are not the legal owner of this watch. Nor was Goldsmiths ever the legal owner. So Goldsmiths could not pass on good title to you.

    As Haywood said, Goldsmiths should not hesitate to refund you. If you want a replacement watch rather than a refund (and there definitely is a case to be made for this) then you'll need to negotiate with them.

    If you want to keep the actual watch, you need to buy it from the insurance company. They are the legal owners of the watch.




    ** edit **

    As per later comment, my comments above are based on an implicit assumption, for the sake of discussion, that the watch really was stolen and the problem was late reporting or late updating of the register.

    If the watch was not in reality stolen (e.g. if there was a fraudulent insurance claim) then Goldsmiths did have good title to pass on.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 22nd March 2022 at 13:27.

  13. #13
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    Agree that it looks very odd for the claim to be made 4 years after the watch was sold. Either there's a misunderstanding somewhere (serial typo, date incorrectly heard etc) or it's iffy. I would try to give the insurer as much info as you can including a picture of the receipt etc, very specifically calling out the date discrepancy, because presumably that'll trigger some questions on their end about the validity of the claim.

    Agree with HM that buying a stolen item, no matter how well intentioned, doesn't make it yours. So if that is the case then it'll be a dispute with Goldsmiths, which I predict to be a PITA as it's not exactly something that's going to get resolved in store and they'll probably try to at best fob you off with the original purchase amount. Crappy situation to be put in for you unfortunately.

    Begs the question, what stops anyone doing this? Selling a Rolex, logging it as stolen and waiting patiently for it to be caught at service? I've never sold a watch to a dealer so I'm not sure how it works, but if the answer is ID checks at the point of sale for example, then it makes you wonder if Goldsmiths did this and could verify who sold them the watch originally. Probably not though.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    What Haywood said.

    Like it or not, late reporting or not, you are not the legal owner of this watch. Nor was Goldsmiths ever the legal owner. So Goldsmiths could not pass on good title to you.

    As Haywood said, Goldsmiths should not hesitate to refund you. If you want a replacement watch rather than a refund (and there definitely is a case to be made for this) then you'll need to negotiate with them.

    If you want to keep the actual watch, you need to buy it from the insurance company. They are the legal owners of the watch.
    Steady the horses a moment.

    He MAY not have good title to the watch. We need the full facts.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    It can happen.

    Watch is lost, but owner cannot find papers etc.

    Several years later the papers etc are found sufficient to finalise claim, whereupon watch is finally added to stolen list.

    Equally, insurers and databases DO make mistakes. This is definitely a case where the full facts need to be known before a conclusion reached.
    you are having a joke?

    'they' sold the watch to Goldsmiths who must have been happy the seller was the legal owner?

    Goldsmiths despite some forum comments are not exactly the place to sell stolen goods?

    as to the person responding - what are you qualifications to make your comments?

    let me guess - a bloody solicitor?

  16. #16
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    I think you have to take it to court, you should not be out of pocket for a fraudulent claim. If you have he receipts and the paperwork it should be straight forward.
    (a) There is no firm evidence of a fraudulent claim. A late claim or late updating of registers is not necessarily evidence of a fraud.

    (b) There is no suggestion that nick h will be left out of pocket. Goldsmiths is a reputable company and should issue a refund for a watch that they did not have legal title to sell (if the watch was stolen). If the OP wants a replacement watch then that's a bigger ask, but one that has merit.

    (c) Going to court is not the first port of call. It's the final port of call if negotiation has not succeeded.

    (d) Receipts and paperwork only prove that money changed hands. They are not a proof of legal title to an item, unless the seller had legal title. That's the issue at hand.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 22nd March 2022 at 13:06.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    you are having a joke?

    'they' sold the watch to Goldsmiths who must have been happy the seller was the legal owner?

    Goldsmiths despite some forum comments are not exactly the place to sell stolen goods?

    as to the person responding - what are you qualifications to make your comments?

    let me guess - a bloody solicitor?
    No, actually, I'm one of the people most qualified and experienced in the whole of the UK to have assisted you for free in these very specific circumstances, and professionally close to one of the main protagonists.

    https://www.miltonaires.com/about/our-watch-team

    Anyway, you clearly know more than I do and do not wish the factual responses that I thought your posting this in a watch forum had invited, but I appreciate your grace and gratitude.
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 22nd March 2022 at 13:10.

  18. #18
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Steady the horses a moment.

    He MAY not have good title to the watch. We need the full facts.
    I agree.

    I was making the implicit assumption that it was a matter of late reporting or late updating of the register, rather than a fraudulent claim. I should have explicitly stated my assumption.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    It may be maddening and I sympathise greatly, but I know KN and he is a brilliant guy. You will be fairly treated and I would suggest calmly waiting for the full facts to be shared. The law on title is clear enough. At the moment, all the details we need against which to apply it are not.
    well i would hardly say KN is brilliant

    he is covering the arse of the insurers who paid out

    i mentioned involving the police and he said they are not bothered!!!

  20. #20
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    i mentioned involving the police and he said they are not bothered!!!
    Why would the police be bothered? There is no evidence that either Rolex or Goldsmiths have committed a crime.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    What Haywood said.



    Like it or not, late reporting or not, you are not the legal owner of this watch. Nor was Goldsmiths ever the legal owner. So Goldsmiths could not pass on good title to you.

    As Haywood said, Goldsmiths should not hesitate to refund you. If you want a replacement watch rather than a refund (and there definitely is a case to be made for this) then you'll need to negotiate with them.

    If you want to keep the actual watch, you need to buy it from the insurance company. They are the legal owners of the watch.
    I think there are scenarios which would negate that pronouncement.

    e.g. A sells watch which ends up in Goldsmiths - purchased by the OP. A, who has had it insured for years, continues with it on his home policy - waits a period of 4yrs, then claims it is stolen. His insurer has no reason to suspect that he got shot of it 4yrs before, just that his house got done over and their client claims it was taken.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    you are having a joke?

    'they' sold the watch to Goldsmiths who must have been happy the seller was the legal owner?

    Goldsmiths despite some forum comments are not exactly the place to sell stolen goods?

    as to the person responding - what are you qualifications to make your comments?

    let me guess - a bloody solicitor?
    I think you may need to quickly check who Mr Milton is to avoid further embarrassment. In your situation I would listen very carefully to his advice. He has a unique vantage point and offers wise words.

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=Haywood_Milton;5957793]No, actually, I'm one of the people most qualified and experienced in the whole of the UK to have assisted you for free in these very specific circumstances, and professionally close to one of the main protagonists.

    Anyway, you clearly know more than I do and do not wish the factual responses that I thought your posting this in a watch forum had invited, but I appreciate your grace and gratitude.

    Adieu.[/QUOTE


    hardly modest are you?

    i actually do appreciate your comment but none of which get me my watch back?

    so thanks

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by joe narvey View Post
    I think you may need to quickly check who Mr Milton is to avoid further embarrassment. In your situation I would listen very carefully to his advice. He has a unique vantage point and offers wise words.
    Agreed, I would be taking Haywood’s advice.

  25. #25
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I think there are scenarios which would negate that pronouncement.

    e.g. A sells watch which ends up in Goldsmiths - purchased by the OP. A, who has had it insured for years, continues with it on his home policy - waits a period of 4yrs, then claims it is stolen. His insurer has no reason to suspect that he got shot of it 4yrs before, just that his house got done over and their client claims it was taken.
    Yes, I agree. See #14, #18 and my edit to the message you quoted: #12.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe narvey View Post
    I think you may need to quickly check who Mr Milton is to avoid further embarrassment. In your situation I would listen very carefully to his advice. He has a unique vantage point and offers wise words.
    never realised i was in the presence of 'God incarnate'?

    i did thank Milton

    i will now deal with things in my way

    thanks for all comments

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    never realised i was in the presence of 'God incarnate'?

    i did thank Milton

    i will now deal with things in my way

    thanks for all comments
    could mods please close this thread as its going nowhere

    thank you

  28. #28
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    Wow...

  29. #29
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    i actually do appreciate your comment but none of which get me my watch back?
    But you do now know how to proceed: Find out more information (i.e. was it a fraudulent insurance claim or not?), ask for a refund from Goldsmiths or negotiate with them for a replacement watch (if the watch was stolen and the insurance claim was valid), and possibly buy the watch back from the insurers if they do turn out to be its legal owners.

    Your situation is deeply unfair. I commiserate.

  30. #30
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    No good deed goes unpunished….


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  31. #31
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post

    what do you think?

    thanks
    I understand you are angry; I would be too in your shoes. but you have the views you requested in your OP . Take the information given and use it or go about it your own way, you will soon find out if you have taken the right direction. There is no need to be rude to people who are only trying to help.
    I wish you luck

  32. #32
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    Man attends steeplejack convention and announces he would like his 200ft chimney demolished.

    Fred Dibnah steps up and says "'Appens as that's my line, Sir."

    A couple of good sorts nod their approval.

    "I didn't know we were in the presence of God incarnate!" retorts the visitor, before turning on his heels.

    Dibnah returns to his sandwich, life unaffected.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    But you do now know how to proceed: Find out more information (i.e. was it a fraudulent insurance claim or not?), ask for a refund from Goldsmiths or negotiate with them for a replacement watch (if the watch was stolen and the insurance claim was valid), and possibly buy the watch back from the insurers if they do turn out to be its legal owners.

    Your situation is deeply unfair. I commiserate.
    thank you - much appreciated

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    I understand you are angry; I would be too in your shoes. but you have the views you requested in your OP . Take the information given and use it or go about it your own way, you will soon find out if you have taken the right direction. There is no need to be rude to people who are only trying to help.
    I wish you luck
    thank you - much appreciated

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    But you do now know how to proceed: Find out more information (i.e. was it a fraudulent insurance claim or not?), ask for a refund from Goldsmiths or negotiate with them for a replacement watch (if the watch was stolen and the insurance claim was valid), and possibly buy the watch back from the insurers if they do turn out to be its legal owners.

    Your situation is deeply unfair. I commiserate.
    A sound post spelling out just some of the useful things the correspondent was offered.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Man attends steeplejack convention and announces he would like his 200ft chimney demolished.

    Fred Dibnah steps up and says "'Appens as that's my line, Sir."

    A couple of good sorts nod their approval.

    "I didn't know we were in the presence of God incarnate!" retorts the visitor, before turning on his heels.

    Dibnah returns to his sandwich, life unaffected.
    jesus - you love the sound of your own voice?

    please do me a favour and keep your opinions to yourself - knowing and recommending Kevin Newton is hardly a plus point

    now the matter is passed to my legal team for redress

    in no way do i accuse Goldsmiths of any incorrect business practice

    and again

    MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD
    Last edited by nick h; 22nd March 2022 at 13:34.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    never realised i was in the presence of 'God incarnate'?

    i did thank Milton

    i will now deal with things in my way

    thanks for all comments
    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    jesus - you love the sound of your own voice?
    Lost for words

    Where's that list again??

  38. #38
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    Nick, Whilst I appreciate that Haywood’s response did not give you the answers you were looking for, you should appreciate that he is very knowledgeable regarding such circumstances and merely laid out the facts of the situation.

    Your response to that post was somewhat churlish and I do hope that does not dissuade him from trying to help others in similar situations.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Yes, I agree. See #14, #18 and my edit to the message you quoted: #12.

    I saw those after I had carefully worded my post.

    As in many such threads, people have the habit of 'winding up' the op - and then things go to rats when they respond.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by helidoc View Post
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    It feels that way doesn't it !

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Nick, Whilst I appreciate that Haywood’s response did not give you the answers you were looking for, you should appreciate that he is very knowledgeable regarding such circumstances and merely laid out the facts of the situation.

    Your response to that post was somewhat churlish and I do hope that does not dissuade him from trying to help others in similar situations.
    Milton can do as he pleases - and if he helps others - well done

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I saw those after I had carefully worded my post.

    As in many such threads, people have the habit of 'winding up' the op - and then things go to rats when they respond.
    exactly - thank you

    yes, some just want to wind up the op

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Nick, Whilst I appreciate that Haywood’s response did not give you the answers you were looking for, you should appreciate that he is very knowledgeable regarding such circumstances and merely laid out the facts of the situation.

    Your response to that post was somewhat churlish and I do hope that does not dissuade him from trying to help others in similar situations.
    Milton is a watch dealer and pawnbroker - not a solicitor

    just see his profile

  44. #44
    Hi, OP - you're a relative newcomer to the forum, averaging 25 posts a year for the last four years or so, so may I offer some advice here?

    You posted this thread in order to a) maybe get some helpful advice, and b) vent your frustrations. Haywood was the first person to reply, and he is very qualified to comment and advise here. In fact, in his second post on your thread, he says, "You will be fairly treated and I would suggest calmly waiting for the full facts to be shared". That seems like good advice to me.

    If you're not fond of the tone of the advice, then at least reassure yourself with the price.

    We have no mods here.

    Slow down, and things will get sorted out, I'm sure. Unless, of course, you'd like to continue the thread for the sake of b).

  45. #45
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    Milton is a watch dealer and pawnbroker - not a solicitor

    just see his profile
    Did you read his profile on his website?

    https://www.miltonaires.com/about/our-watch-team
    Last edited by JeremyO; 22nd March 2022 at 13:48.

  46. #46
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I saw those after I had carefully worded my post.
    Yup, I guessed so. I call this effect in fast-moving threads "thread lag". :-)

    The problem would have been avoided if I had chosen my words in #12 with more care in the first place.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    Milton is a watch dealer and pawnbroker - not a solicitor

    just see his profile
    Actually, I'd say he's a well known collector and one of the most respected commercial authorities on high end watches in the UK. I know that the idea of respecting folks who have deep knowledge is unfashionable, but in this case your petulance is really doing you no favours. As there is a real chance that you may not own the watch and are likely to be relying on the kindness of strangers to get anything more than your money back, I'd say that behaving as you are towards someone trying to do you a favour, someone who is well known and well liked well beyond this forum, is daft. It's not exactly an incentive for anyone else to do you a favour.

  48. #48
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h View Post
    Milton is a watch dealer and pawnbroker - not a solicitor
    It doesn't really matter as to whether or not he is a solicitor. The point is that he is experienced and knowledgeable in these matters and, I think, has given you good advice about how to proceed.

    If you don't believe his advice then you can of course take it to a solicitor (other types of relevant lawyer are available!) to confirm it. But I suggest that for the time being that would be a waste of money. You only need to go the legal route if and when negotiations with Goldsmiths and/or the insurers don't bring you what you reasonably want.

  49. #49
    Genuinely feel sorry for the OP. Tough break. Unfortunately lashing out and trying to discredit people trying to help because they don’t tell you what you wish to hear is not the way to conduct oneself.

    Best of luck getting your watch / money back. I might suggest that you may find it easier if you approach it with a calmer head.

  50. #50
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    Nick take a break, come back tomorrow, you're doing yourself no favours here. People are trying to help, including a literal expert, your reaction is entirely unwarranted.

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