Thoughts on this Submariner Red?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

https://www.watchclub.com/rolex/subm...1680-year-1976

Had the pleasure of looking over this Submariner last week, however I am very much not an expert in any way of vintage Rolex. The advert is reasonably clear, the watch has been continually upgraded by Rolex themselves with a new bracelet, bezel insert and hand set at least.

I imagine this is the opposite of what a lot of collectors look for, ie complete originality however there may be as many folk who like it for it's continuous history.

What say the forum experts? It's very nice (the bezel doesn't click although I'm not sure when this was introduced), and would be a welcome introduction to the collection which has always been post 1990s stuff.

[kinyik]

https://www.watchclub.com/rolex/subm...1680-year-1976

Had the pleasure of looking over this Submariner last week, however I am very much not an expert in any way of vintage Rolex. The advert is reasonably clear, the watch has been continually upgraded by Rolex themselves with a new bracelet, bezel insert and hand set at least.

I imagine this is the opposite of what a lot of collectors look for, ie complete originality however there may be as many folk who like it for it's continuous history.

What say the forum experts? It's very nice (the bezel doesn't click although I'm not sure when this was introduced), and would be a welcome introduction to the collection which has always been post 1990s stuff.

The crown guards look way over polished to me. Almost pointed.


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[wileeeeeey]

There should be one on SC in a few weeks. Might be worth putting up a WTB to get first dibs.

[Snoodles]

Personally think that’s way over priced for a watch that’s over polished with far too many service parts?

Rather have one with no paperwork that’s in original condition?

Triggers broom comes to mind!

[jpjsavage]

Originality is everything with vintage Rolex imho. It seems overpriced so only buy it if you are absolutely sure you are going to keep it for the long term. I think you will loose money if you try and resell this privately in the near term.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Originality is everything with vintage Rolex imho. It seems overpriced so only buy it if you are absolutely sure you are going to keep it for the long term. I think you will loose money if you try and resell this privately in the near term.

An interesting opinion and one I'd appreciate some expansion on-what would you consider it's market price to be? Some more modern watches the shop had I thought were a couple of grand over-priced but such is the nature of running an expensive store in central London I expect!

I wouldn't be buying with the intention to sell however I wouldn't want to be ripped off either.

Triggers broom comes to mind!

The same thought came to me however I rather like the fact it's been continually upgraded!

[Sinnlover]

That’s been in the window for a couple weeks. Looks nice enough under the bright lights of the shop but I am far from an expert

[higham5]

I wouldn't be buying with the intention to sell however I wouldn't want to be ripped off either.


!

I think this is a valid point , but its like buying a unique coloured car, “ when” you do come to sell your market will be smaller than for a more original example.

[Topcat30093]

Fantastic and detailed provenance.
But for me it would be the replacement hands not matching the beautiful patina on the dial.


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[learningtofly]

Overpriced considering the fact that it's not all-original, and the lugs on the crown side look a bit thin. That said, James Hyman could sort the hands out easily enough.

[Matdaytona]

With all that service paperwork it would be stranger if it didn’t have service hands etc fairly priced (maybe a bit of haggle room if they’ve had for a while) not easy to find a red with punched papers

[jpjsavage]

An interesting opinion and one I'd appreciate some expansion on-what would you consider it's market price to be? Some more modern watches the shop had I thought were a couple of grand over-priced but such is the nature of running an expensive store in central London I expect!

I wouldn't be buying with the intention to sell however I wouldn't want to be ripped off either.




The same thought came to me however I rather like the fact it's been continually upgraded!

As said, I would source something that is close to an original one as possible. It is an expensive price point for most of us and probably only something you'd be wanting to purchase once. I'd be watching the private market and doing more research in the meantime.

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[LaurasOtherHalf]

As said, I would source something that is close to an original one as possible. It is an expensive price point for most of us and probably only something you'd be wanting to purchase once. I'd be watching the private market and doing more research in the meantime.

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I appreciate the contributions, it certainly is an expensive purchase. I suppose one thing to consider would be the value of such an original vintage version. To me, like a private chat I've had with another collector I'd actually cherish the fact this one is a Trigger's Broom!

I suppose I kind of think of it as a bit like a manufacturer backed restomod car. Classic looks with some new technology thrown at it.

I absolutely understand some collectors want everything as original as possible which this most definitely isn't. What sort of prices would a mid to late 70s Submariner Red be selling for-I think if I had a base knowledge of that I could quantify whether I think this particular example is worth £XXXX above that.

[joe narvey]

Bezel not lined up, pip colour looks wrong, replacement hands, guards and case over polished, engraved on the back, and crown over polished/ possible replacement.

Afterthought, if it’s a 1976 I think the triplelock ( shown by the the three dots on the crown) was introduced to the submariner in 1977. It was fitted to the Seadweller from around 1970 IIRC so May be worth a check if you decide you’re interested.

[Rodder]

Bezel not lined up, pip colour looks wrong, replacement hands, guards and case over polished, engraved on the back, and crown over polished/ possible replacement.

Afterthought, if it’s a 1976 I think the triplelock ( shown by the the three dots on the crown) was introduced to the submariner in 1977. It was fitted to the Seadweller from around 1970 IIRC so May be worth a check if you decide you’re interested.

Bezel isn’t ratcheted so no issue there.

I’d argue the 1680 red is the ultimate sub?

At that price there’s still some choice, but prices are only going one way

[joe narvey]

Bezel isn’t ratcheted so no issue there.

I’d argue the 1680 red is the ultimate sub?

At that price there’s still some choice, but prices are only going one way

Would you expect the points of the pip triangle on the insert to line up with the knurled grip of the bezel outer ?

[andy tims]

Personally think that’s way over priced for a watch that’s over polished with far too many service parts?

Rather have one with no paperwork that’s in original condition?

Triggers broom comes to mind!

This

[JP28]

The only thing going for this is the paperwork.
Everything else says keep looking - crown side polishing (its almost to the caseback), replaced hands, pip, bezel insert and date wheel (I think), engraved case back, damage to dial on 57min line (cannot be certain but mark is there in all pics so it is not lighting), it’s either out of service warranty or about to be as I cannot remember whether you got 2 or 5 yrs in ‘18 and the high price.
Unless you are a paperwork freak, be patient and keep looking.

[MacDeath]

The whole point of vintage is retaining original specification for me. Who wants a Queen Anne dresser with a replaced leg, two shelves and a scratch on the top?

Rolex have continued to evolve and improve the Submariner, so buy a new one. All respect to those who collect fine original vintage examples, but those who buy ones like this are a bit gullible in my opinion. That said, they do sell them!

[SteveDSSD]

The only thing going for this is the paperwork.
Everything else says keep looking - crown side polishing (its almost to the caseback), replaced hands, pip, bezel insert and date wheel (I think), engraved case back, damage to dial on 57min line (cannot be certain but mark is there in all pics so it is not lighting), it’s either out of service warranty or about to be as I cannot remember whether you got 2 or 5 yrs in ‘18 and the high price.
Unless you are a paperwork freak, be patient and keep looking.

This.... plus many comments above. With vintage, originality is what most collectors want and the nearer to original condition the greater value. Very few red subs have box and papers which of course adds to the value but most of the papers are for services that have over time polished the case down a lot (especially the crown guards) and resulted in replacement bezel, bezel insert, bracelet and end links and as said above, replacement of the hands. These all reduce desirability. Whilst it was sold in 1976, it should have a serial number below 4mil for around a 1973/4 manufacture and that needs to be checked with the seller ( white 1680 subs start with 3.8m serial numbers onwards with a small overlap in serial numbers between red and whites).

As has been said this is a premium price, it takes account of the paperwork but not necessarily the reduced originality. I have a white 1680 which I bought from The Watch Club which I still have and it had a replacement bracelet and insert, which I was prepared to accept taking account of the really good original condition of the case, dial and hands...... it is i think always a personal choice but I'd prefer a top quality original condition red without paperwork over a less original one with papers.

[Rodder]

Would you expect the points of the pip triangle on the insert to line up with the knurled grip of the bezel outer ?

Well, that would be the insert not lining up. But I doubt it was part of an quality control in the 60s so i wouldn’t expect it to.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Well, that would be the insert not lining up. But I doubt it was part of an quality control in the 60s so i wouldn’t expect it to.

The bezel has been replaced along with other parts.

Really interesting comments so far, I expected more dismissive options than positive due to the high amount of replacement parts and it’s proved to be thus-really interesting about the polishing of the case and other things I hadn’t spotted thigh-this is exactly why I asked the questions.

[Rodder]

The bezel has been replaced along with other parts.

Really interesting comments so far, I expected more dismissive options than positive due to the high amount of replacement parts and it’s proved to be thus-really interesting about the polishing of the case and other things I hadn’t spotted thigh-this is exactly why I asked the questions.

Just don’t talk yourself into it. An original 1680 red is worth significantly more than one with replacement parts. Remember Rolex could in theory build a new 1680 with replacement parts.

Over half the money in a watch of this type will be with an original dial. I think any dial replacement will be with white writing so I don’t know how to value yours.

Overall it looks on the high side so tread carefully

[wileeeeeey]

Just don’t talk yourself into it.

I should print this out and frame it. Talked myself into too much nonsense over the years and always ends in tears at horological bathhouse.

Tears/tears - either works.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

It seems slightly strange to me that even though new parts have been fitted, with so much documentation the original parts aren't with the watch. I know whenever I've had mine serviced the original parts are returned with the watch but I always used an ex-AD to service, not Rolex themselves. Do Rolex keep hold of any exchange parts?

[wileeeeeey]

Yep, Rolex keep all parts. Parts are on an "exchange basis" only.

[Ghost Chilli]

Yep, Rolex keep all parts. Parts are on an "exchange basis" only.

Do you know if they’ve always done this? As annoying as it seems, I can understand the reasons why.

[marksh]

Its nice to have a full set but set a budget and don’t get too tied up in buying a supposed unpolished or full set ( lots have been put together ) just buy a nice example from a trusted seller .

Try MarcJ at MJ Watches or Mike Wood / Jason @ Sweepinghand I’m sure one of them will be able to sort you out with a nice example .

[watchlovr]

As said above.
It’s a vintage watch, for collectors therefore for the highest price, originally is everything.
Lovely dial, great patina, extras are a big bonus as is the service history.
However, heavily polished case, service (and non matching) hands, service insert, service bracelet.
The service parts imo make it too expensive.
If it was cheaper, (under £20k) you could change or colour match the hands, buy a mk3 insert (£1500?) but the case is still over polished.

If you don’t know vintage pieces, better going to someone who specialises in these and is “on our side” if you know what I mean.
Most large dealers just want to sell, not discuss the minutiae pros and cons of individual pieces.
It’s your job to know all of the above.
On the other hand if you’ve got plenty of ££ and like it, not bothering about future resale then go for it.
Just remember it’s actually not a particularly rare watch, they do come up. Several members here have stunning examples, maybe they’ll show theirs so you can compare.

[learningtofly]

I wish I'd kept this one (actually, I wish I'd kept both of them). Bloody Simon and his "I'll give you a Porsche for it" nagging

[Browners]

I wish I'd kept this one (actually, I wish I'd kept both of them). Bloody Simon and his "I'll give you a Porsche for it" nagging

If the Simon was aka Skyman this was an absolute peach of a watch, I was lucky enough to see and try it on in the flesh and was even offered it but alas turned it down.

[catch21]

Trouble is, everyone’s criteria will be different. This isn’t a model for me but if it was it wouldn’t match my criteria specifically the hands and the enthusiastic polishing. It all tells a story yes, but someone else’s story.

[learningtofly]

If the Simon was aka Skyman this was an absolute peach of a watch, I was lucky enough to see and try it on in the flesh and was even offered it but alas turned it down.

No, it was Foxy.

[wileeeeeey]

Do you know if they’ve always done this? As annoying as it seems, I can understand the reasons why.

Not sure when it was introduced, sorry, but definitely the case now and in recent times.

[Billyloves2boogie]

Vintage watches, for me at least, are all about the dial & hands. I’d be passing on this one at the asking price I’m afraid. Don’t compromise, if you’re asking questions now it will never be the one.


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[Browners]

No, it was Foxy.

Skymans must of been Andy’s then, there were a few nice ones around at that time.

[watchlovr]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cmrb7fLr...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Saw this, thought it looked a good example.

[NickRed71]

The same thought came to me however I rather like the fact it's been continually upgraded!

Fair enough; but as others have said, you need to be sure you want to keep this watch because selling will not be easy.

The market for vintage is smaller than the market for new or nearly new, and within the vintage segment, original dial and hands matter the most. This dial is lovely but some important parts have been replaced, and as you can see (from the comments of some members who like vintage watches), the case has also seen plenty of the polisher’s wheel.

There is nothing wrong with favouring “continually upgraded” over “honest original” but the market for the former is appreciably smaller.


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[Lostintime]

Modern Rolex Sub are brilliant. That is my preference. I can appreciate vintage Subs but they are not for me.

[MacDeath]

Modern Rolex Sub are brilliant. That is my preference. I can appreciate vintage Subs but they are not for me.

Agreed. References to the past in current models are all well and good, but the advancements made make just fabulous everyday wearers.

[Ghost Chilli]

Not sure when it was introduced, sorry, but definitely the case now and in recent times.

Thank you

[Hood]

Agreed. References to the past in current models are all well and good, but the advancements made make just fabulous everyday wearers.

Don't think anyone is disputing a modern sub is a great everyday watch.
The OP's after a Red Sub though.

[MacDeath]

Don't think anyone is disputing a modern sub is a great everyday watch.
The OP's after a Red Sub though.

I was agreeing to the post I quoted and the OP doesn't know what they want to be fair.

[Hood]

I was agreeing to the post I quoted and the OP doesn't know what they want to be fair.

I didn't quote the Sherman's post as it could have been seen as anti-american.

[blackal]

My 1980 GMT-Master seems to be ticking along nicely, as are all the classic subs up until the fat-frame model……………..

If you like the newer ones - fine…….. go for them, but the classic-proportioned older models is where the good taste sits squarely.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I was agreeing to the post I quoted and the OP doesn't know what they want to be fair.

The OP wanted opinions on a watch they tried on from people who knew more than he did,
Mission accomplished I’d say.

[Loupe]

Modern and vintage both have their fan base but you really can’t beat a vintage dial in the sun.
Keep looking OP as mismatched hands and a soft case will annoy you.
I have service hands on a 1665 and it really lets it down, I’m going to look into having them matched in the new year.





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[Bluetinfloor]

This is a 1973 sub, think type 5 red, likely pretty original as a comparison, but who really knows after all this time...on a later bracelet

Case pretty good, wear to the bezel would indicate pretty old, the insert itself will have a type or mark, but i cant remember exactly, very fat font though.

This shot would be from before Duncan serviced it, so tarnish where plexi sits has been cleaned up.

[Hood]

This is a 1973 sub, think type 5 red, likely pretty original as a comparison, but who really knows after all this time...on a later bracelet

Case pretty good, wear to the bezel would indicate pretty old, the insert itself will have a type or mark, but i cant remember exactly, very fat font though.

This shot would be from before Duncan serviced it, so tarnish where plexi sits has been cleaned up.

What a lovely watch
MK3 insert with "kissing 4"
In good hands with Duncan servicing it too.

[marksh]

Lovely watch that Red Sub and the insert is a killer , I really liked the one I had and it was a nice example that came from via Andrew Shear to a buyer and then to me , BTW he has a fantastic Mts first Red Sub and a beautiful 1680 white .