Reply With QuoteWestern white people who live a life similar to ours, who have been invaded - good
Eastern brown people that live a life we don't recognise and are turning on eachother - bad
Sweeping generalisation of course but I fear it's not far off the mark.
I was just listening to the radio and there was a comment made about Syrian refugees and Ukrainian refugees, specifically the difference in attitude.
I think the gist of the comment is the Home Secretary is applying the measures she is in response to the publics perception of not managing the Calais situation.
If we do welcome Ukrainian refugees more than Syrian, Afghanistan, etc why is that?
Is it the familiar white face, the real time media coverage of a conflict we can relate to, the pictures of women and children that look like our families ?
Do we relate more to a current atrocity that we understand over a short period of time ?
Is there a religious aspect ? I’ve seen several comments about Christian refugees versus Muslim, does that influence how we feel ?
Do we perceive Calais migrants as less deserving as economic migrants after passing through safe countries ?
Western white people who live a life similar to ours, who have been invaded - good
Eastern brown people that live a life we don't recognise and are turning on eachother - bad
Sweeping generalisation of course but I fear it's not far off the mark.
Interesting isn’t it. If we have a different attitude it’s interesting to try understand why.Originally Posted by r.dawson
Because we are bombarded by media stereotypes so we create opinions based on this rather than meeting people
It’s becoming harder to say “I’m not a racist, but …”
During my final few years as a school's vice-principal, I was a teacher for 1 d/week in a class full of refugee kids; age 14 - 16. We call it the 'International Class'. With 40+ yrs of teaching, I can safely say that these kids were the hardest-working group of pupils/students I ever had. One example: I didn't allow phones in my classroom. Everybody (including me) put their phone in a box before the start of my lessons and they could pick it up after the lessons were finished. I had a Yazidi girl refugee who hadn't handed in her phone. I noticed that, but when I realized what she was doing, I didn't dare to take the phone away: she was scrolling through the pics on her phone, looking at her relatives she'd left behind/lost... They learned to speak and write Dutch within a few months. And -normally- within 2 school years, they were able to merge with the normal school classes and the normal Dutch school program.
The point is, and that was confirmed by my students, that some refugees didn't come to Europe as a result of the war. A number came to Europe for other reasons then being on the run for the war. And that group is highlighted by those who're against refugee immigration to make their anti-refugee point!! It even happens now, here in the Netherlands: "Those Ukranians are the real refugees! Only women and children. Look, the men stayed behind to fight. And look at those Syrians: only men are here, hardly women and children!"
The people who're anti-refugees use the current situation to emphasize their point (Sadly!).
But there's more: Ukrainians are allowed to stay 90 days in the Netherland with a visum. It's easier for them to find a spot to live, other than a refugee/immigrant camp. People from other countries have to go into an immigrant camp until it's sorted out that they're allowed to stay. Especially in the small villages, people who go to church tend to take car of those refugees. The church rents an apartment or a home from someone in the parish and members of the parish fill it with furniture etc for refugees. Kids are send to school right away. Last week was Spring holiday, now all kids are back in school. Including a handful of Ukranian kids who've found shelter here. They're in the International Class now.
I think how EU member states have responded to this crisis is absolutely incredible.
There’s a view U.K. cannot process visas in Calais because it would force a decision on processing calais jungle migrants. Which would you prioritise, etc. I can see why processing will only take place away from Calais, but maybe it should be in Poland /Romania if the objective is to not accept potential economic migrants as opposed to conflict migrants.
U.K. needs a serious reset on so many levels.
My take is that the Ukrainians that are looking to escape (to any safe country)are woman , children and the elderly while the young men stay and fight but other immigrants appear to be young men who have just left their own country hoping to come here.
Last edited by lew07; 8th March 2022 at 15:21.
Genuine question, surely having an ‘international class’ is the antithesis of inclusion, it feels very 1980s and discriminatory, never the two shall meet. This wouldn’t happen in the UK, instead, advice is to support them to learn in the main stream. The same holds for SEND, physical disabilities. All research shows EaL/SEND students learn English and progress more in the mainstream and that’s without the numerous benefits wider society gets from inclusion. It also stops the hero feeling from well meaning teachers and support staff which is well documented, the; ‘ their just doing well by being here’. As opposed to, ‘let’s put you in for 10 GCSEs and what do you need to get to that Uni course’
In a nut shell.
- - - Updated - - -
This is evidence the media has done their job in vilifying a certain minority. The media purposely photograph the young men and quiet often, if you zoom in on the pics you will see children present in the background.
Was only a couple months back the RNLI were getting threats for helping people at sea. Media behind it all as the morons who were making these threats wouldnt know their arse hole from elbow unless told.
Is that based on gender data from subset of refugees from different countries? Or from another source?
Interesting that you can both ask a question and include "surely" in your attempt to discredit the initial premises.
I believe you are comparing apple and oranges. Menno mentioned teenagers arriving in a country whose language they do not speak. A specific class will bring them up to speed much faster than mixing in all more specific subjects with kids who learn in their mother tongue.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I really wouldn’t know. As southerner101 says below. The media know what buttons to press to get the public worked up. If it’s in the papers or on television then it must be true..
Shouldn't this be in the Bear Pit?
Most definitely.
It’s heading that way I think.
Was there ever any other direction?
exactly hit the nail on the head.
As always though there is a lot of money to be made from peoples suffering.
The contracts dished out to the companies who then “look after” the asylum seekers and refugees etc are worth billions. Another transfer of wealth to private companies.
Exactly.
Basically, it's a highway of only Dutch language skills + some maths. Although maths can help tremendously when it comes to learning a new language: it's a universal language and easy to translate for pupils who have experience with all levels of maths.
Some of my former students were badly damaged. I had one boy from Iraq who always came into my office during lunchtime. Then I found out that he wanted to be safe. He'd been in a situation where people started to fight with knives(!) in the dining halls... It took me and my colleague a long time before he believed that it was all safe. A very 'difficult' (behavior-wise) co-student (Dutch) helped me with that. The 'difficult' young man was often 'parked' in my office during lunchbreak due to his behavior. Not always correct. He was often judged on his appearance... Then I realized that the Dutch kid had troubles with maths, where my student from Iraq had no trouble understanding maths. So I put them together: one needed to learn Dutch and feel free in the dining hall, the other could use help understanding maths. Both 'won' with this situation. Ultimately, the Dutch kid with his iffy behaviour 'towed' the scared kid over the threshold, so to speak.
I'm still proud for both of them. (The kid from Iraq is now in the uni to become an accountant; the other kid is now... a police officer.
Wow Saint Just, with you around a I need to give my comments the same rigor my PhD thesis. The question was in the form of a hypothesis that could the be agreed or disagreed with. I highlighted current thinking, the UK has moved away from Specialist provision as it’s not considered inclusive. This has meant specialist provision and special schools have declined, which is problematic in itself, and parents are desperate for it to return and it is slowly. The driving force for this so called inclusion is to increase social mobility. Something that has proven to be less when children are segregated into separate classes or schools. It’s a complex issue and I don’t have answers. Although, from experience children are certainly happier with similar peers, but does that give them the means to become future doctors, lawyers etc (or any profession society deems to be the most worthwhile)
Anyway, I’ve just realised this GD and not bear pit so for respect to the forum I won’t comment further but feel free to pick apart this post
Many young Syrian men for example fled their country as they didnt want to get conscripted into an army to fight and kill their fellow Syrians.
There are probably many countries around the world in a similar situation.
So if you agree, you must have an in-depth report on the reasons for these non Ukrainian refugee status and the data for the gender split.
So unlike the Ukrainian men they left the women, children, and elderly behind rather than send them onwards hopefully to safety? This is a genuine question, not having a go at you as I don't pretend to fully understand what went on on Syria.
No reasons to walk out just because it is the G&D. We do not disagree on the demise of specialist provision, for better or for worse.
May I ask if you speak other languages? Imagine moving to China or Japan, with teenaged children. Good students here. They suddenly find themselves in a different system without speaking a word of the language. In this case it is not inconceivable that some locals will speak at least a little English but let's assume they don't want to (the chances that Dutch children speak either Pashto or Ukrainian are remote...)
Wouldn't you prefer to allow them to "waste" one school year going in an international class and concentrate on learning enough local lingo to then integrate with other children, or spend hours every day going through topics where they wouldn't understand a word said?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I have been berthed next to the border force at Dover for a week, it's certainly an eye opener on quantity arriving daily!!
High or low?
I believe immersion is the best way to learn a language. Ultimately you can’t learn a language for the entire day so it’s generally best to be in subject specific lessons. But that doesn’t mean I agree with it. Personally I don’t see how a child who doesn’t speak basic English can access certain lessons.
A problem I have experienced is that specialist groups can be see as an easier option for teachers and are not given the focus they deserve; no targets, progress trackers, curriculum etc. The idea they’re so weak, anything is better than nothing. So struggling teachers, leadership with other priorities etc (not always by any means though)end up teaching them as there’s normally no real accountability. Another problem in SEND are some staff who think just by teaching SEND children they’re wonderful people; you also need to work hard and be good at it!
Last edited by Rodder; 8th March 2022 at 19:25.
My own experience is somehow different.
I was 13 when I arrived in NYC. I spoke good English until the age of 5, then was forbidden to say anything in English (long story) so 8 years later I spoke better (school) German than (school) English.
But in NY I went to French school. Many Americans there (50%, roughly), the rest quite international (most of their parents worked for the UN). But teaching was in French!
English classes were divided in 3 groups, the likes of me (newcomers to the country) were in the 3 group. I can tell you that the (American) teacher had a hell of a job as we had to be mostly fluent by the end of the school year. And we were.
So it is indeed possible to learn a language in a school year when your brain is young enough. But the real difference was that I could have a normal school year in my mother tongue for all the other topics. At least two third of that would have been lost had I been in an American school. I might have spoken English (well, American) sooner but with no syntax and grammar foundations (much like the natives, then).
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I would say high, I think it was about 400 the other day, two border boats and the RNLI doing chauffeur duty.
There’s to many scenarios to go over.
The man could seek safety and then get family to where ever that safety is, he could be the only English speaker in the family, family members to elderly or ill to flee, relatives don’t want to flee as they are safe in the capital etc etc. List goes on.
Sorry - I thought it was in reference to UK Border Control with Ukrainian refugees in relation to Govt performance or lack of.
In the example I gave young men would be forced into the army (Not women, children or the elderly) So it would be young men who were forced to flee. At the beginning of the conflict many conscripts left the army to go back to their hometowns in some cases to defend them, others fled abroad to neighbouring countries.
That doesnt of course mean that women and children didnt also flee (Especially as the conflict began to escalate into all out war and towns and cities were destroyed) You may recall the image of the young Syrian child washed up dead on a Turkish beach a few years ago.
I just give Syria as an example, there may be situations similar in other conflict zones. I have no idea what the ratio of men or women are amongst Ukrainian refugees either but my guess is its far more complex than what the media may suggest.
Except the Ukranian men do not have the choice to seek safety for the vulnerable in advance, the vulnerable are fleeing for their very lives.
Witness the Ukrainian elderly being carried in carpets or anything else that comes to hand by the men, who then return to save more people or to fight.
Ukrainian men between 16 and 60 are forced to fight under martial law. Many, particularly from Eastern Ukraine will be ethnic Russians but Ukranian by nationality, yet they are forced to fight men of their own ethnicity like the Syrians, but are not generally fleeing, some will be for sure, but not in the main.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 8th March 2022 at 20:33.
Shouldn't this be in the bear pit???
My guess many remember the images from -15 of unaccompanied youth. Don't know about UK but suspect approx same as Sweden and here the split was 11 to 1 for unaccompanied youth (total 35000) and on the whole little over 70% male.
This 'separate' or 'mixed' classes (my words here) would make a great topic on its own. It's very sad that the existance of these classes is needed under the current circumstances.My own experience is somehow different.
I was 13 when I arrived in NYC. I spoke good English until the age of 5, then was forbidden to say anything in English (long story) so 8 years later I spoke better (school) German than (school) English.
But in NY I went to French school. Many Americans there (50%, roughly), the rest quite international (most of their parents worked for the UN). But teaching was in French!
English classes were divided in 3 groups, the likes of me (newcomers to the country) were in the 3 group. I can tell you that the (American) teacher had a hell of a job as we had to be mostly fluent by the end of the school year. And we were.
So it is indeed possible to learn a language in a school year when your brain is young enough. But the real difference was that I could have a normal school year in my mother tongue for all the other topics. At least two third of that would have been lost had I been in an American school. I might have spoken English (well, American) sooner but with no syntax and grammar foundations (much like the natives, then
My view is this country is full to bursting, just look at hospitals and schools, we have to very careful how many Refugees we let whatever nationality.
I thought I heard 40 new hospitals are being built in the UK, and what with the massive Brexity windfall and the considerable economic boost, that'll help build a few schools, with all the myriad upsides you can manage to take a few more surely...By way of comparison Spain, relatively poor compared to the mighty GB, is reportedly welcoming 6000 Ukrainians this week alone and is in discussions with Ukraine about receiving unaccompanied children.
Also didn't something like a million people leave in 2020, reversing the long term trend of population gain, must have cleared a bit of space, maybe squeeze in just a couple more it's in a good cause, they'll probably return home and rebuild when it's over.
Last edited by Passenger; 9th March 2022 at 15:00.
Underfunding Vs over subscribed
''full to bursting'' is naive at best.
This ^^^ refugees and immigrants have repeatedly been shown to be a ''net gain'' to the economy, unfortunately that financial gain has been wasted.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
There is an element of truth to that, but would people be equally happy to let in all the Syrian women and children in?
I suspect there's more to it than that and a lot is down to the Ukranians looking and acting a lot more like white, British people which those who are thinking in such terms put a value on.
However, we're at risk of moving out of G&D territory here.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I’m not sure you understood my point but no problem.
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