"Recollections may vary" but the evidence is all there on film. Honestly it was the worst standard of driving throughout a season that I've ever seen and a stain on the sport.Originally Posted by thieuster
I don't think we need excessive censorship on here and I'll say it as I see it. It's hardly politics, just an opinion on a sportsman's conduct. And there's been plenty of forthright opinions about other drivers without calls to take it to the bear pit.
For the record Max's victory on Sunday was superb and I've never questioned his ability. His driving standards have also significantly improved (again after it was made quite clear what was acceptable in the rules) this year and F1 is all the better for it.
By «*forcing everyone off the track*» I suppose you mean Lewis?
You call it how you see it. I see it very differently. I may not be the only one but in this country it means I am a minority. What does that tell you ? That you are right, or that Lewis is British?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It tells me you can't (or don't want to) see the complete change in Max's overtaking approach this season compared to last and that also coincides with the clarification of the overtaking rules. There are many clear examples of Max breaking these rules last season.
By definition F1 teams push rules to the limit. It’s true for the engineers, it’s true for the drivers.
That is what MS, AS, AP, NM, etc. did in their time; it is what MV did and he won the championship.
F1 changed the rules, all pilots changed to comply. Your point is?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
F1 didn't change the overtaking rules they merely reconfirmed the same rules that had already been enforced for everyone else.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 3rd August 2022 at 10:51.
What a great circuit Spa is. Shame if it's going off the calender.
And what a phenomenal race of MV yesterday. A true world champion.
Another great race of MV.
And what was Mercedes thinking? Didn't they learn from Abu Dhabi ?
Well, yes, but they were apparently prepared to give up a certain 2 + 3 for the chance of a win. Not so unreasonable, and I understand LewHam has calmed down a lot now he’s had time to think it all through.
Seems to me also to be a totally different scenario from AbDab, where they had no realistic choice plus it wasn’t just a win but also an 8th WDC at stake.
All through it was a really interesting tactical race, and not only for podium places.
Last edited by drmarkf; 5th September 2022 at 10:32.
Max, a warm knive in cold butter......
Just a shame the Keystone cops have taken over race control as well as Ferrari strategy.
Will Verstappen secure his second title today ?
Does not look like it given these conditions.
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Too much rain i'm afraid.
Last edited by gortz; 9th October 2022 at 07:48.
I've been less interested in this sport after the assorted fiascos of last season, but I'm done with it now.
The worst of F1 mismanagement distilled into one race has, for me, finally killed a sport I've been watching since the 1980s. When even the guy who benefits from your decisions questions those decisions and you have to hold your hands up and admit you forgot to include a rule you'd already bloody written, it's time to wrap it up. Richest sport on the planet, run by absolute morons.
Oh, and the recovery vehicle... whoever called that needs a slap.
Last edited by Papa Hotel; 9th October 2022 at 10:50.
Tend to agree with the above, it's become a little bit farcical now. The rules need to be simplified I think. Both the rules and the format would benefit from a period of stability instead of being tinkered with. Imagine if the Premier League had different height goalposts one season, then the next season a different sized pitch, then four points for a win instead of three a few years later, then five substitutions instead of three .. oh hang on I think they have done that one
Congratulations to Max Verstappen on his second F1 world championship.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I have no interest in football, but even I know there are different sized pitches.
You mention 'fiasco' and you've been watching since the early 80s. Then surely you remember when formula 1 was governed by FISA, as a sub-body of the FIA, and they fell out with the FOCA - the constructors' association, with the ensuing driver bans and race boycotts in 1982. Plenty of spectators at the races were wearing T-shirts with the slogan FISA+FOCA = FIASCO. Plus ça change...
I didn't say that.
No, you didn't. My mistake.
The point is valid though I guess, F1 has seemingly always been run on a wing and a prayer.
Congrats to Max for winning his second WDC. By far the best driver this season.
FTFY
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
That's true, but the rule governing the acceptable dimensions hasn't changed recently.
Team found breaking budget caps last year which gives them an advantage this year, can see this getting messy & Merc & Ferrari are not going away.
According to Autosport Red Bull have agreed F1 cost cap breach deal with FIA. Further details to be released tomorrow. So much for Horner’s denials.
Don’t expect any meaningful sanctions from FIA though.
Rencken Reckons: FIA owes fans full explanation of Red Bull cost cap findings
Today, 12:40
Red Bull face a raft of sanctions if found guilty in the cost cap saga. RacingNews365.com Editorial Director Dieter Rencken argues that more important than any penalty is full transparency.
"If you think back to how long we have been playing with technical regulations and sporting regulations to make them rock solid as a sport? You have to admit the financial regulations are still a very young set of regulations, and how do we collectively make them enforceable? How do we make them equitable in all situations? It's a big challenge right now. We know it is going to take time.
"We feel the FIA should have the power to make sure that the rules are [applied fairly] and have the freedom in that case to make sure that the system doesn't explode because of early days difficulties. And we certainly think that in the long run, these will be very good regulations for everybody.
"In the first early years, we need to be very careful to make sure we reach, as early as possible, the right level of enforcement and the right level of definition. I think in the meantime, we need to have to have some flexibility from all parties to avoid allowing things to collapse."
Who said these words, when and under what circumstances? Here's betting that the vast majority of readers with even the slightest understanding of the current cost controversy will attribute the above passages to Red Bull team boss Christian Horner. Indeed, it is highly likely a timeframe within the past fortnight will be pinpointed.
Yet, the paragraphs were 'lifted' verbatim from a response given by Ferrari Racing Director Laurent Mekies to a cost cap question posed by RacingNews365.com during May's official Spanish Grand Prix Saturday press conference transcript. Thus, well before suspicions fell upon Red Bull, indeed, upon any team.
The complexities of F1's financial regulations
Inclusion of the Mekies' quotes does not imply that Ferrari are in breach of any FIA regulatory provisions – crucially, the team were given the all-clear for 2021 – but the Frenchman's comments indicate how difficult it is for teams to grasp the full intentions of each clause and for the FIA to police what is effectively a set of immature and constantly evolving regulations.
Mekies, though, went even further: "Therefore the key question is how do you deal, how do we deal collectively with these early years of the regulations, where we know there are grey areas, where we know there are things that needs to be improved?"
Indeed, so complex are F1's FinRegs that one team boss told RacingNews365.com they had submitted over 100 requests for clarification; another that their full submissions ran to 75 000 line-items! Now consider that Britain's Companies House rules require companies to submit their FULL annual accounts by 30 September of the following year, while the FIA's deadline is 30 March.
While there are no excuses for breaching cost cap limits – just as there are no excuses for breaching track limits – the fact is drivers are given three shots at exceeding (clearly defined) track limits before punishment and are required to 'give back' any advantages so gained without penalties. Clarifications issued for sporting or technical matters are seldom (if ever) retrospective, whereas the financial clarifications are backdated.
Now consider that the financial regulations were forced through as part of the 2021-25 Concorde Agreement, having been largely framed by Liberty Media's Chief Financial Officer (his LinkedIn profile makes a virtue of this) despite EU directives that there should be a hard split between regulatory (FIA) and commercial (F1) matters, and that the original regulations were hastily amended and the cap reduced under Covid by $30 million.
And here we are https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63430407
Looking forward to the update
Where’s the sweeping under the carpet emoji?
You mean like a few years ago, with the Mercedes DAS system or the Ferrari Fuel System?
Was the DAS illegal? Answer = no.
Mercedes checked out a DAS system with the FIA before investing money it. They submitted all the CADs prior to building the prototype and then had it checked again before testing in Barcelona. Each time it passed and was given FIA approval - hence totally legal.
the reason for it being banned in 2021 was simply that the FIA didn’t want teams spending money developing its own systems given that budget cap was coming. One of those most vocal in getting it banned was Horner - oh the irony.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Horner is the most miserable bleating fellow in F1. Some of the crap he is coming out with is embarrassing. Any semblance of F1 being a sport has been totally killed by his unsportsmanlike behaviour.
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Ferrari may not be going away, but they threw away any chances of being World Champions this year.
They've been a shambles given they had (for much of the season) the arguably best car.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Ferrari had 2 wins and a second place in the first 3 races. However people forget that RBR had 2 DNFs in the first 3 races. Since then RBR have dominated, helped in part by Ferraris poor of reliability, driver errors and strategy mistakes, but those who think they could have really challenged for the WDC and WCC are deluded. IMHO. RBR, coupled with good drivers, who have not really been placed under any pressure, have a produced a winning package. Just a shame about the budget cap and the fact that they technically cheated, but I doubt Horner or MV are worried about that.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So far this year Ferrari have had 12 pole positions to RBR’s 7. So there is no denying the Ferrari has pace. They have just done their usual thing and imploded. They did the same against Mercedes when Seb was racing for them.
Who comes out better on Netflix, Wolff or Horner? I realise Netflix gives a certain, maybe distorted, view, but Horner seems, to me, to come across as man with a chip on his shoulder, maybe both shoulders. MV and LH are both fantastic drivers and driven to win, making mistakes as anyone who has driven in top or even not so top sport will do. My question is not about the drivers but the bosses.
I think even the MV fanboys are starting to tire of Horner and Marko, mostly because of the hypocrisy demonstrated by them which cannot be defended. The latest being Horner refusal to apologise for the overspend, for suggesting that Wolff apologise for his unsubstantiated claims that RBR cheated (a real whoosh moment that one) and Marko now suggesting that the “real cheats” were those who leaked RBR over spend before it was formally announced by the FIA, before suggesting it was Roa, as possibility being the source of the leak. Ignoring of course a complete lack of evidence, or that the current head of finance at the FIA is ex-AT and a lot of ex-Ferrari employees also work there. More importantly forgetting that the Italian Media broke the story that 2 teams were under investigation in March and I imagine lots to Team Principles were happy to inform anyone who would listen that it wasn’t them.
But as soon as Horner said “we submitted a budget below the cost car” it was obvious it was RBR, simply because he didn’t follow up with “which was accepted by the FIA” . On the topic of budgets, Horner reportedly stated this week, that 5-6 teams are likely to fail the budget cap this year. Maybe he got the information from the same source as the Italian media did last in March.
As for Netflix, I cannot answer because I stopped watching after season 2. Bread and circuses for the masses.
F1 is slowly eating itself.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think that Ferrari simply set up cars to win poles (generate hope and please the Tifosi), because they knew that porpoising, reliability and driver errors would result in bigger problems during races, but they certainly had pace during the initial part of season, less so after the new floor tests came in. In fact it’s the opposite to Mercedes who were awful in the early parts of season, but who seem to be getting more competitive now. Both are still miles behind RBR, so I imagine their focus has already turned to 2023. Fingers crossed. One thing we know for certain is the CLC and CS made to many driving errors to even think about winning a WDC. Hopefully lessons learnt.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Max just proving what we all knew he’s a ####
Max fanboys try defending that?
As I wrote in the other F1 thread: my brother in law used to race carts and often the Verstappen family was there as well for MV's races. (Different class of course; MV was young lad then and he raced in his own division). He has a lot of anecdotes about the Verstappen family, including granddad Frans. One can safely say it's genetic.
There are two scenarios being discussed on Dutch forums:
- A situation in Monaco where PER parked his car in the barrier during Q3. He later admitted that he's done that on purpose to be able to start in front of MV (The car's data showed that he was the one who made the car spin). Heated conversations after that incident. Possibly that's what he was referring to over the radio this day.
Or:
- Max has a line in his contract: he never has to lift for team members to finish in front of him.
We (Dutch) are not surprised. We'd hoped that he has more of his mom's side of the family. I think that he has more of this up his sleeve.
Last edited by thieuster; 13th November 2022 at 22:41.
At some point lets hope he becomes toxic for Liberty and the advertisers but I fear at the moment they are probably rubbing their hands.
The MV vs LH rivalry has always seemed a bit of non event to me as neither comes across as terribly likeable.
Great to see George Russell take a well deserved first GP win, though.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Have you got a source reference of Perez admitting he did it on purpose? I’ve tried googling but couldn’t see anything other than a random journalist claiming it happened. Surely that would be a pretty big infringement / sacking issue if he did that? Sainz crashed because of it too, so would be a huge safety concern? Would be interesting to know if it was ever investigated and if not, why not.
Sounds like tosh to me and Verstappen is just a jumped up little
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Try this. A comparison between PER and three other drivers at the same point. Sound on.
https://twitter.com/3hm2003/status/1...Tv0IYP5KuFIpoA
And the telemetry:
https://twitter.com/hotlapmode/statu...J7S63vQvApUZNw
However, the best news is that it looks as if Hülkenberg is back. That's the 3rd Dutch speaking driver on the grid. H. was born right on the border between the Netherlands and Germany. His Dutch is as good as his German. For the British people on a island: it's clear that people on both sides of a border on the Continent are bilingual: the border is an administrative line on a map, not a reality when you live near a border.
Last edited by thieuster; 14th November 2022 at 19:17.
We have plenty of borders in the UK too, with different languages spoken either side of them, and many bilingual people in the mix.
It’s not an alien concept to us! 🙂
Thanks for that. Nothing particularly telling there I guess; he crashed so something went wrong. It shows it’s his fault but not that he did it on purpose. Checo hasn’t seemed like the kind of person to do that (but what do we know of course). Ultimately I think that Red Bull would have dumped all over him if he’d of admitted it to them; putting their golden boy in trouble would be unforgivable. I don’t buy it. More importantly is the way Max is allowed to belittle the team publicly and the team have no issue with it; that doesn’t bode well I fear.
I’ve watched F1 for years and I’ve never been able to look at telemetry data without immediately glazing over!
I also think it’s a bit of a shame for Hulkenburg to be back. I like him and he’s shown some skill in the past, but his time has gone and I’d rather see a fresh new talent on the grid. Mick probably has more to give although he’s not exactly shone, I’d still give him another year.
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I am not sure that Monaco stuff is very compelling evidence, it simply looks like he got on the gas a fraction too early and it broke free, sending the revs up (and making it sound worse than it was).
The telemetry doesn't look good, but I am not sure that is right, the revs would have spiked a lot more than that if he had wellied it like the graph seems to suggest.
If the FIA thought that was deliberate, they would have thrown the book at him. It has precedent.
But the point here is that Max holding the grudge that long is petulant in the extreme.
Perez did the right thing at the weekend, and Max did not.
He has won the championship already this season, and this would have cost him one place and absolutely nothing else in the record books.
The fact that he wouldn't hand it back could cost Perez a lot, a championship second place. And he knew that.
Really bad behaviour.
Brad Philpot, who is a pretty good racer gives this thoughts on Checo off in Monaco https://youtu.be/n9Bm9kniuyw
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Any other recommended podcasts other than missed apex?
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