Reply With QuoteNot held a PPL for 30+ years but several current, or former in my case, military pilots on the forum as well as a couple of airline pilots. Ask away.
I'm sure there must be. I have a question about VFR flight in the UK, no need to bore the rest of the forum with it. If you are are flying VFR in the UK, please pm me.
Not held a PPL for 30+ years but several current, or former in my case, military pilots on the forum as well as a couple of airline pilots. Ask away.
Alrighty. Like you, I held a PPL in the UK 30 odd years ago. Before take-off you set the QNH for departure. On arrival at your destination or returning to your departure field after local flying you set the QFE, the advantages being obviously able to fly the circuit at real AGL heights.
Now I fly a bit in France but not as P1. They never use QFE, everything is done in QNH when flying VFR. That means a certain amount of mental arithmetic for thinking about heights in the circuit, which seems to me adding an unnecessary complication. French pilots tell me that QFE was 'outlawed' as it could result in accidents if pilots set the wrong value. Seems daft, but it's like that.
So, my question - is QFE still used in the UK or was it changed after I left, perhaps as part of a European standardisation under EASA or perhaps wider JAA rules?
QNH is used exclusively in civilian flying in the UK and most of the World. Someone will come along and give us a niche case where QFE is used and I'm sure there are some. In the RAF we used QFE and I far preferred it for the reason you state, no mental arithmetic to do at a busy stage of flight. When landing or conducting an approach at a civvy airfield we used QNH and most of the time it isn't an issue as there are few truly high airfields in the UK. I should say that I last flew in the RAF in 2004 which, as I've just realised having not thought about it, is rapidly approaching 20-years!!
Imagine approaching Courchevel airfield and having to mentally subtract circa 6,580ft from the height shown on the altimeter - of course you wouldn't truly give a rats hoop as your eyes would very definitely be out of the window and you won't be doing an instrument approach to that airfield or flying IFR.
The statement 'French pilots tell me that QFE was 'outlawed' as it could result in accidents if pilots set the wrong value' is true of any incorrect pressure setting but shouldn't affect VFR flight as long as you're not asleep!
Last edited by Skier; 9th December 2022 at 20:28.
See the current UK rules: ENR 1.7 ALTIMETER SETTING PROCEDURES for:
5.1.6 Pilots taking-off at aerodromes beneath Terminal Control Areas and Control Areas should use aerodrome QNH when flying below the Transition Altitude and beneath these Areas, except that the aerodrome QFE may be used when flying within the circuit...
and...
5.3 Approach and Landing
5.3.1 When an aircraft is descended from a Flight Level to an Altitude preparatory to commencing approach for landing, ATC will pass the appropriate aerodrome QNH. In addition, ATC will also pass the Transition Level in due time prior to reaching it during descent either by voice communications, ATIS broadcast or if available, data link. On vacating the Flight Level, the pilot will change to the aerodrome QNH unless further Flight Level vacating reports have been requested by ATC, in which case, the aerodrome QNH will be set following the final Flight Level vacating report. Thereafter, the pilot will continue to fly on the aerodrome QNH until established on final approach. When requested by the pilot or local procedures require, the appropriate QFE and aerodrome or threshold elevation shall also be given.
5.3.2 When carrying out a radar approach, ATC will assume that an aircraft is using QNH on final approach and will include a reminder of the appropriate QNH setting in the RTF phraseology. If the pilot requests to undertake the approach using QFE, then ATC will pass the appropriate QFE and 'height' will be substituted for 'Altitude' in the RTF phraseology. It should be noted that the Obstacle Clearance Height is always given with reference to the aerodrome or threshold elevation.
I'm not a pilot but using QFE does seem still to be an option in the UK whereas it's a no-no in France.
I’m a NPPL microlight instructor based at Peterborough
PickleB is absolutely correct above.
Admittedly I've never flown recreational/sport GA but in practice I've never flown circuits at a civilian airfield on QFE, it's always been QNH. I've never really understood the UK MoD obsession with QFE either...I think its a brit fast jet thing....they did a brief experiment in the 1980s switching to QNH but aparently someone cocked things up and immediately switched back to QFE.
So do you fly using QFE or QNH?Originally Posted by Jpshell
When you make initial calls and you intend to leave ATZ or just a local flight, you will be given QNH. If you are joining an airfield, whether licenced or not or if you are remaining in the circuit, it will be QFE. Over 3000’ commercial tend to use FL QNE ((1013mb). Some airspace requires you to stay on the airfield QNH below
It’s hugely important, Conington is 30’ above sea level whereas Leicester is 400’ so if you depart Conington on QNH at 2000’, you will be 1600’ above land when you join Leicester and their overhead join requires you to be at 2000’ QFE.
So both. You could stay on QNH and calculate of course, but that isn’t what PPL or NPPL teach students
Which was my question, is it still common practice to switch to QFE on arriving VFR? In the example you give, for an airfield in France at 400ft amsl you would stay on QNH, make your overhead join at 2400ft as indicated on the altimeter and complete the circuit at 1400ft.
I fly a mix of VFR & IFR most days in the UK. I only ever fly on QNH.
When I did PPL instruction years ago, I only ever taught QNH, not QFE. But then again, I’m not always flying to and from airfields.
This. Unless you are flying a aerobatic display at an airfield, I can't see why you'd need to use QFE.
I could ask my brother, he's CPL(H) and he flies a helicopter through the Alps reasonably often.
I know what happens in the Alps, it's flying in the UK that interests me.
...Ehhh??!!
the son in law teachers flying planes at Teesside airport and take people out for scenic tours has also flown in the USA
https://www.flyingmag.com/guides/ifr-vs-vfr/
Last edited by bowie; 10th December 2022 at 19:53.
Irrelevant annecdote: I use QFE occasionally on my paraglider.
For example I know I need 1200ft above "Les Dents" at Annecy before crossing the lake to Roc d'boef.
leaving with more height is not a problem, but less could mean ditching in the water - something that's nearly always fatal on a paraglider. Similarly I need 800ft over the end of the Forclaz ridge to make the jump up wind to Les Dents.
But my main altimeter is set to QNH for airspace avoidance.
Just reading that makes my palms sweat. Wow.
Well, to be fair it's nowhere near as bad as I made it sound.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@45.83.../data=!3m1!1e3
Les Dents are on the right (East), Roc d'boef on the left. The prevailing wind is from the North. The actual water crossing is short, only 500 meters or so. Roc d'boef is inland a bit, and slopes downwards to the lake. You want to connect with it somewhere around where I've shown at a minimum, arrive closer to the lake shore and Rd'B isn't high enough to generate the rising air that you need to continue the flight. So that means you'll still have maybe 800 to a 1000ft of height over the lake when you reach the far side, which is plenty of margin for error.
Far dodgier is the 48km Grand tour d'lac. Leaving at Forclas (marked Vue sur l'lac d'annecy, Southeast corner of the lake) you make your way to Les Dents , then cross the valley (Bluffy) to a mountain called Veryier, it's to the right of the D909 as it goes through Les Mottes & Veryier du lac. From here on it gets interesting, there are no landing options. If you fail to stay up, then you have a choice of trees, buildings or the lake. You continue (upwind) North over Veryier, then cross over the town of Annecy to the far North of the lake, and connect with the Semnoz ridge to the North west of the lake.
As you approach Quintal, there are landing options again. There's a tree lined bowl somewhere along the ridge that works well enough to enable you to climb over the peak and dash downwind to R'dB. Another climb and back to the Forclas launch.
I absolutely love flying in Annecy, I suppose I've been half a dozen times, usually for a week. In all those visits, I've only ever attempted (& managed) one Grand tour.
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