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Thread: MHEV PHEV -PHEW what do I need to know?

  1. #1
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    MHEV PHEV -PHEW what do I need to know?

    Help!

    Looking at Jaguar F-Pace and E-Pace engine choices. Some of the MHEV and PHEV seem tempting with nice enough power outputs to be fun for reasonable cost.

    But.

    Do these power outputs only last while the batteries are charged? So in the F-Pace, a D300 MHEV sounds good so does a P400e PHEV. But do those power outputs only last as long as the battery has power? I'd rather just have a diesel/petrol engine with enough go to be interesting without all the PH MH malarkey but that doesn't seem an option.

    Any ideas?

    (Do not mention the SVR)
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  2. #2
    Ive ordered a P300E Evoque which is claimed at 309bhp but thats combined with the battery.

  3. #3
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    On the MHEV vehicles they battery never discharges totally as the vehicle continually charges it (like an alternator does for the 12V)

    As such power output isnít affect

    P400 PHEV is a 290PS 4 cylinder gasoline engine with the rest of the power from the PHEV system

    As such yes when the system is depleted you have 290PS not 400PS

    However the 290PS is more than enough in an F-Pace and the PHEV system does do some self charging if kept in hybrid mode or even better if put in save mode (for example do this on the motorway and it will use the engine to charge the battery and provide some EV only miles in the town etc)

    Overall both cars are plenty powerful enough for 99% of driving

    The D300 you donít plug in or do anything with so essentially it behaves like an ICE only vehicle but better because the MHEV torque fills between changes etc so sounds like a better option for you

    You can also get a P400 6 cylinder MHEV in the F-Pace and this is a quick car and as per the D300 you wonít notice the MHEV apart from it being more refined than ICE only
    Last edited by mk2driver; 20th January 2022 at 20:18.

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    Master yumma's Avatar
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    Your assumption is correct, the power output quoted by the manufacturer is the power of the combined electric and ICE power plants. You wonít notice much difference with a Mild Hybrid (MHEV) as the electric drive is nominal, the Plug in hybrid (PHEV) will be a very marked difference in performance), I used to own a BMW PHEV, it was superb 95% of the time, but occasionally you could completely deplete the batteries and then you are left with an under powered petrol also lugging around the batteries and electric motors etc. But overall the PHEV was great and I only sold it due to the Pandemic and it was sat on the drive as I have been WFH ever since. I hope this helps.

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    I had a Golf GTE (a PHEV), and in GTE mode you got the max combined electric and engine power. It would take a very long time to deplete the battery to zero, I donít think I ever managed it when Ďpressing oní.

    That P400e battery should last plenty long enough for any bursts of quick driving youíll do.

    Also, even at zero percent indicated battery, itís not actually zero, and any driving on the engine or braking etc should recharge the battery.

    It looks like a nice car, all told, Iíd definitely have it over the MHEV if only because you could probably do the weekly shop/running about on electric only.

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    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information guys.

    So it seems it basically comes down to how long the batteries will last for the extra BHP.
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    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk2driver View Post
    On the MHEV vehicles they battery never discharges totally as the vehicle continually charges it (like an alternator does for the 12V)

    As such power output isnít affect

    P400 PHEV is a 290PS 4 cylinder gasoline engine with the rest of the power from the PHEV system

    As such yes when the system is depleted you have 290PS not 400PS

    However the 290PS is more than enough in an F-Pace and the PHEV system does do some self charging if kept in hybrid mode or even better if put in save mode (for example do this on the motorway and it will use the engine to charge the battery and provide some EV only miles in the town etc)

    Overall both cars are plenty powerful enough for 99% of driving

    The D300 you donít plug in or do anything with so essentially it behaves like an ICE only vehicle but better because the MHEV torque fills between changes etc so sounds like a better option for you

    You can also get a P400 6 cylinder MHEV in the F-Pace and this is a quick car and as per the D300 you wonít notice the MHEV apart from it being more refined than ICE only
    Thanks that was what I was looking for. I couldn't find those figures for the power without the battery assist. MHEV seems a better bet, mainly because you don't need the hassle of having a charge point fitted etc or paying for the electricity. But it does cost more than the PHEV, and as you say the 290ps isn't bad when it does run down. My 20MY is a D240ps and goes reasonably well. Thinking MHEV is worth looking at. Or just to complicate things the E-Pace P300 MHEV perhaps!
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    My New X3 is MH 48volt assist. The system constantly charges from braking etc filling a separate battery, which in runs the electrical systems taking the load off the engine therefore saving fuel. When descending the engine coasts. When accelerating hard it gives you an extra 11 bhp. It’s permanent four wheel drive and still returns 42 mpg around town and 52 on a run

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    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Thanks that was what I was looking for. I couldn't find those figures for the power without the battery assist. MHEV seems a better bet, mainly because you don't need the hassle of having a charge point fitted etc or paying for the electricity. But it does cost more than the PHEV, and as you say the 290ps isn't bad when it does run down. My 20MY is a D240ps and goes reasonably well. Thinking MHEV is worth looking at. Or just to complicate things the E-Pace P300 MHEV perhaps!
    You can run a PHEV without ever bothering to plug it and and charge the battery. You will still get some regenerative charge into the battery, the same as a MHEV, but you will never utilise itís full potential.

    Many company car drivers get a PHEV for tax reasons and never bother with the plug in part; if itís cheaper than the equivalent MHEV, it would be pointless not going for it.

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    If I was to travel a 29 mile combined commute could I use a PHEV as an EV? In that I never/ very rarely use petrol? It could be very cheap

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    Yes, I donít know of a PHEV that canít also be used just like an EV for short trips, as long as the battery is charged beforehand obviously.

    You probably wonít get the advertised range though, just like battery only vehicles, as real world driving is rarely the same as the test cycle the range figures come from.

    Most PHEVs will have a software map that starts the ICE from time to time if youíre just doing short EV trips, just to cycle the engine a bit, but even then a tank of fuel could last months and months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Thanks for the information guys.

    So it seems it basically comes down to how long the batteries will last for the extra BHP.
    For most normal driving, they should last as long as the trip.

    Unless youíre lapping the Nurburgring or somewhere, the battery will always be being used or recharged either by the engine or regeneration.

    For example, if I drove 200 miles to the Lake District in the GTE with a fully charged battery, then Iíd arrive with as much battery charge as I wanted. I used to use the last of it to get to the accommodation on battery only.

    Along the way, I would still have max power available at all times, if the battery was getting low, the car would top it up etc.

    You should never get to a point in your journey when itís only an ICE, as the car will make sure thereís always a few miles of battery available so that when you need it either for max power or crawling in stop start traffic itís ready.

    The GTE I owned had a real world EV only range of about 18 miles, but by the time Iíd driven 200 Iíd have covered 50+ in electric only. Yes, some of that was via charging whilst driving/regen, but it would never run out.
    Last edited by Tooks; 21st January 2022 at 09:44.

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    Master daveyw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    If I was to travel a 29 mile combined commute could I use a PHEV as an EV? In that I never/ very rarely use petrol? It could be very cheap
    Thatís exactly what I want to know too!
    There are too many acronyms in the car buying world these days- it makes my head spin

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyw View Post
    Thatís exactly what I want to know too!
    There are too many acronyms in the car buying world these days- it makes my head spin
    From my calculations it would be costing me about £1.4 per day instead of about £6.5. But, without experiencing it in the real work Iím far from certain. Considering trading my XC60 D4 for XC40 Ultimate petrol hybrid. In theory Id almost never be filling up ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    From my calculations it would be costing me about £1.4 per day instead of about £6.5. But, without experiencing it in the real work Iím far from certain. Considering trading my XC60 D4 for XC40 Ultimate petrol hybrid. In theory Id almost never be filling up ???
    I've got an XC60 phev and I never start the engine in the week I just charge it at work for free

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    From my calculations it would be costing me about £1.4 per day instead of about £6.5. But, without experiencing it in the real work I’m far from certain. Considering trading my XC60 D4 for XC40 Ultimate petrol hybrid. In theory Id almost never be filling up ???
    As a rough calculation I saw said if you are running on elec and charging at home you're bill will be 1/3 of your petrol bill - but that assumes you are running your whole commute on elec only. But there must be a large chunk of people who commute under 30 miles a day.

    So yours seems a bit low but then i guess it all depends on your mpg just now, how much you pay for elec etc etc etc
    Last edited by Lazydonkey; 21st January 2022 at 14:31.

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    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    I have a Kia HEV (MHEV). I would have got a PHEV but did not have one is the model I wanted. The PHEV runs just on electric (range perhaps 30m) then it behaves like a HEV (MHEV) - so the battery re-charges by engine breaking or from the ICE - not “lugging round heavy batteries”.

    I’m getting 5ltr/100km (60mpg) with my HEV which I think is excellent!

    Hope that helps.

    Another factor is the cost between models. I did looks at full electric - but for the miles I do it would not have been economic at there was an extra £10K for electric (I like to pay in full for my vehicles - I know it’s very old fashioned but don’t like loans).
    Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 21st January 2022 at 14:52.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyw View Post
    Thatís exactly what I want to know too!
    There are too many acronyms in the car buying world these days- it makes my head spin
    Yes, current plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) have a battery capable in theory of propelling them for approx 31 miles.

    In practice that will be more like 20 ish at a guess, but yes if your commute is around that distance then it would be in all electric mode.

    The car will fire up the engine from time to time in some kind of maintenance mode if youíve run for a long time without requiring it, but otherwise it can be EV only and only need the engine for longer runs or when max power is requested.

  19. #19
    Master daveyw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Yes, current plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) have a battery capable in theory of propelling them for approx 31 miles.

    In practice that will be more like 20 ish at a guess, but yes if your commute is around that distance then it would be in all electric mode.

    The car will fire up the engine from time to time in some kind of maintenance mode if youíve run for a long time without requiring it, but otherwise it can be EV only and only need the engine for longer runs or when max power is requested.
    Can running the car on petrol/diesel recharge the battery or does it have to be recharged via a cable/plug?
    I think a PHEV is what will suit us best as have a shortish commute but travel at weekends and evenings but dont have a charging point yet as waiting on planning permission for a driveway!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveyw View Post
    Can running the car on petrol/diesel recharge the battery or does it have to be recharged via a cable/plug?
    I think a PHEV is what will suit us best as have a shortish commute but travel at weekends and evenings but dont have a charging point yet as waiting on planning permission for a driveway!
    Yes, it will, to a point anyway.

    Itís not a particularly efficient way of doing it though, youíre effectively using petrol to charge the battery up, which is expensive.

    A plug in hybrid really need to be plugged in to recharge if itís to make financial sense, but it would work in the short term and you could still charge it on public 7kW points in the interim.

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    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    For most normal driving, they should last as long as the trip.

    Unless youíre lapping the Nurburgring or somewhere, the battery will always be being used or recharged either by the engine or regeneration.

    For example, if I drove 200 miles to the Lake District in the GTE with a fully charged battery, then Iíd arrive with as much battery charge as I wanted. I used to use the last of it to get to the accommodation on battery only.

    Along the way, I would still have max power available at all times, if the battery was getting low, the car would top it up etc.

    You should never get to a point in your journey when itís only an ICE, as the car will make sure thereís always a few miles of battery available so that when you need it either for max power or crawling in stop start traffic itís ready.

    The GTE I owned had a real world EV only range of about 18 miles, but by the time Iíd driven 200 Iíd have covered 50+ in electric only. Yes, some of that was via charging whilst driving/regen, but it would never run out.
    I'm not really bothered about how many miles I can get on electric. It's just there don't seem to be any other options apart from a part electric system at the moment, probably thanks to Carrie's green fingers So for me MHEV seems the better (least bad) option, just means swallowing the extra cost new I suppose, and putting up with the engine starting and stopping when it feels like annoying me. To be honest I'd rather just have an ICE and pick the Bhp I want, but I don't suppose the chick pea and lentil brigade are going to let that happen. I wonder what other manufacturers have on offer, might have a look but I do like the F-Pace platform.
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    Master daveyw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Yes, it will, to a point anyway.

    Itís not a particularly efficient way of doing it though, youíre effectively using petrol to charge the battery up, which is expensive.

    A plug in hybrid really need to be plugged in to recharge if itís to make financial sense, but it would work in the short term and you could still charge it on public 7kW points in the interim.
    Thank you. Makes sense explained like that

  23. #23
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    ICE also runs when extra cold outside, especially if using heating, heated seats etc. nonetheless we got a PHEV a week ago and have averaged around 160 mpg including a couple of 20+ mile journeys on full EV only. Very pleased with ours so far.


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    MHEV PHEV -PHEW what do I need to know?

    I have an Evoque P300e which has the same power train as the EPace - and the same principles apply to the FPace.
    1. Approx 30 miles available in EV mode - possibly 25 in cold weather
    2. Yup - 300hp in hybrid mode. Acceleration is impressive especially as the motor has max torque from stationary
    3. Even when battery shows 0% there is always power for rapid acceleration
    4. Engine does not charge the battery. But the battery benefits from recuperation when braking etc
    5. Ideal for those who can charge at home and have a shortish commute. If youíre pounding the motorways regularly then not for you
    6. I have solar cells on my roof and charge via a smart (Zappi) charger when the sun is shining. Went weeks during the summer using no petrol and only freeí electricity .

    Overall this is a terrific car and the ICE and EV aspects combine seamlessly
    Last edited by CriticalMass; 21st January 2022 at 23:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalMass View Post
    I have an Evoque P300e which has the same power train as the EPace - and the same principles apply to the FPaceÖ

    4. Engine does not charge the battery. But the battery benefits from recuperation when braking etc
    This is a 4WD car where the ICE powers the front wheels and the electric motor drives the rears.

    It canít let the battery go to zero, it would get damaged, and you would be without 4WD and max performance when you needed it. So although youíre correct that the engine canít fully recharge the battery, it will do it sufficiently that full performance or 4WD is always available.

    The motor at the rear is a generator when being Ďdraggedí, which is how it charges the battery along with the regen braking etc.

    Engineers, quite rightly, have designed out the ability to fully recharge the battery from engine power alone as itís so inefficient, but it has to do it in some way otherwise your 4WD car becomes 2WD with the resultant impact on performance and dynamics.

    As youíve found yourself, max performance is always available when required, so itís doing something. Iím quite a fan of hybrid drivetrains when done properly, they are a good Ďfuel multiplierí.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalMass View Post
    I have an Evoque P300e which has the same power train as the EPace - and the same principles apply to the FPace.
    1. Approx 30 miles available in EV mode - possibly 25 in cold weather
    2. Yup - 300hp in hybrid mode. Acceleration is impressive especially as the motor has max torque from stationary
    3. Even when battery shows 0% there is always power for rapid acceleration
    4. Engine does not charge the battery. But the battery benefits from recuperation when braking etc
    5. Ideal for those who can charge at home and have a shortish commute. If youíre pounding the motorways regularly then not for you
    6. I have solar cells on my roof and charge via a smart (Zappi) charger when the sun is shining. Went weeks during the summer using no petrol and only freeí electricity .

    Overall this is a terrific car and the ICE and EV aspects combine seamlessly
    Your point 4 is incorrect - in save mode and even to a lesser extent in hybrid mode the engine will charge the HV battery

    Not fully charge it and it comes at an efficiency penalty for the ICE but itís designed to provide some electric range at the end of a journey in an urban environment

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalMass View Post
    I have an Evoque P300e which has the same power train as the EPace - and the same principles apply to the FPace.
    1. Approx 30 miles available in EV mode - possibly 25 in cold weather
    2. Yup - 300hp in hybrid mode. Acceleration is impressive especially as the motor has max torque from stationary
    3. Even when battery shows 0% there is always power for rapid acceleration
    4. Engine does not charge the battery. But the battery benefits from recuperation when braking etc
    5. Ideal for those who can charge at home and have a shortish commute. If youíre pounding the motorways regularly then not for you
    6. I have solar cells on my roof and charge via a smart (Zappi) charger when the sun is shining. Went weeks during the summer using no petrol and only freeí electricity .

    Overall this is a terrific car and the ICE and EV aspects combine seamlessly
    I have the new Volvo xc60 phev which sounds similar to the jag I find the engine which has 250 hp plenty quick enough but when I put it in power mode combing the electric motor as well itís faster 0-60 than a golf gti which some on here wouldnít rate as fast but itís more than fast enough for me

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    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael 38 View Post
    I have the new Volvo xc60 phev which sounds similar to the jag I find the engine which has 250 hp plenty quick enough but when I put it in power mode combing the electric motor as well itís faster 0-60 than a golf gti which some on here wouldnít rate as fast but itís more than fast enough for me
    Pretty good for a hauler the size of an XC60 though.
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  29. #29
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Another question for the technical minded. If you buy one of the MHEV or PHEV models are your batteries going to do the same as your phone batteries. I mean are they going to deteriorate so that at 5 years plus down the road it's knackered. Important consideration if you end up keeping it for 5 years plus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Another question for the technical minded. If you buy one of the MHEV or PHEV models are your batteries going to do the same as your phone batteries. I mean are they going to deteriorate so that at 5 years plus down the road it's knackered. Important consideration if you end up keeping it for 5 years plus.
    A guy at work has a 2012 Toyota Audis hybrid and said the other day itís got pretty much the same battery capacity as when it was new

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael 38 View Post
    A guy at work has a 2012 Toyota Audis hybrid and said the other day itís got pretty much the same battery capacity as when it was new
    Thats interesting to know. The MHEv has a reasonable ICE anyway but something to take into consideration. Say, selling or trading it on you don't really want the sucking of teeth before the 'it's the batteries mate, drops the price' dealer comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Another question for the technical minded. If you buy one of the MHEV or PHEV models are your batteries going to do the same as your phone batteries. I mean are they going to deteriorate so that at 5 years plus down the road it's knackered. Important consideration if you end up keeping it for 5 years plus.
    Most manufacturers are offering long warranties on the batteries, VAG offer 8 years and 100k miles for example.

    Most BEV and PHEV batteries donít allow you to use 100% of them either, some of it is hidden away to help with lifespan. Not charging to 100% or running down to 0% all help battery longevity, and means the usable battery should last the life of the car.

    I did over 90k miles in 4 years in my GTE, it covered as many EV only miles when I sold it as it did when new.

    Generally speaking though, EV batteries are lasting a lot longer than it was thought they would back in the day, and battery management systems and things like liquid cooling/heating to keep them at the optimum temp help as well.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Thats interesting to know. The MHEv has a reasonable ICE anyway but something to take into consideration. Say, selling or trading it on you don't really want the sucking of teeth before the 'it's the batteries mate, drops the price' dealer comment.
    I think dealers can do battery condition tests so if you were selling one get one of these done before you sell it

  34. #34
    I am getting the Volvo S60 recharge which has 450bhp. 310bhp from a supercharged petrol engine and 145bhp from an electric engine. Itís a plug in hybrid that can do a very realistic 40-45 miles on just electric and that suits by short trips perfectly. It will take 7 hours to charge on a 3 pin overnight. I donít expect to pay more than £40 a month in fuel costs plus the charging costs. Itís interior is up there if not superior to the Germans and it does 0-60 in just 4.5 seconds if you want to give it some welly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langdalematt View Post
    I am getting the Volvo S60 recharge which has 450bhp. 310bhp from a supercharged petrol engine and 145bhp from an electric engine. Itís a plug in hybrid that can do a very realistic 40-45 miles on just electric and that suits by short trips perfectly. It will take 7 hours to charge on a 3 pin overnight. I donít expect to pay more than £40 a month in fuel costs plus the charging costs. Itís interior is up there if not superior to the Germans and it does 0-60 in just 4.5 seconds if you want to give it some welly.
    Just looking on the Volvo website, doesn't seem to be any info about their engines or performance. Perhaps it's not the done thing to ask these days!
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  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Just looking on the Volvo website, doesn't seem to be any info about their engines or performance. Perhaps it's not the done thing to ask these days!
    Just do the builder and spec a recharge s60 and it will have the details of the engine, economy, performance and kit. Mine has every bit of safety kit you can imagine, 19 inch alloys, leather, heated seats front and rear, 200w 10íspeaker Hifi, electric memory seats and mirrors, electric boot etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langdalematt View Post
    Just do the builder and spec a recharge s60 and it will have the details of the engine, economy, performance and kit. Mine has every bit of safety kit you can imagine, 19 inch alloys, leather, heated seats front and rear, 200w 10íspeaker Hifi, electric memory seats and mirrors, electric boot etc etc.
    Looked at XC60, no details on engine or performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Looked at XC60, no details on engine or performance.
    Just download the PDF brochure. Volvo website isnít the best.

  39. #39
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Just download the PDF brochure. Volvo website isnít the best.
    Will have a look at that. Just wondered how they compared.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk2driver View Post
    On the MHEV vehicles they battery never discharges totally as the vehicle continually charges it (like an alternator does for the 12V)

    As such power output isnít affect

    P400 PHEV is a 290PS 4 cylinder gasoline engine with the rest of the power from the PHEV system

    As such yes when the system is depleted you have 290PS not 400PS

    However the 290PS is more than enough in an F-Pace and the PHEV system does do some self charging if kept in hybrid mode or even better if put in save mode (for example do this on the motorway and it will use the engine to charge the battery and provide some EV only miles in the town etc)

    Overall both cars are plenty powerful enough for 99% of driving

    The D300 you donít plug in or do anything with so essentially it behaves like an ICE only vehicle but better because the MHEV torque fills between changes etc so sounds like a better option for you

    You can also get a P400 6 cylinder MHEV in the F-Pace and this is a quick car and as per the D300 you wonít notice the MHEV apart from it being more refined than ICE only
    Beginning to think the D300 MHEV sounds like the best all round bet. The 400 PHEV needs the charging facility at home, so I presume extra cost there, and the 400 MHEV is another £5k and although the extra BHP would be nice I doubt I'd use it that often. Decisions, decisions.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Beginning to think the D300 MHEV sounds like the best all round bet. The 400 PHEV needs the charging facility at home, so I presume extra cost there, and the 400 MHEV is another £5k and although the extra BHP would be nice I doubt I'd use it that often. Decisions, decisions.
    Most PHEVs will charge happily enough overnight on a 3 pin socket at 10A due to the smaller battery packs.

    Even running a new feed from your consumer unit to an outdoor waterproof socket wonít cost much and youíll be saving on fuel every short trip so itíll soon pay for itself.

    If it was a full size EV that would take 30-40 hours to recharge on a 3 pin, then Iíd say a proper charge point would be required for long term safety.

    For a 15kWh ish PHEV battery though, 7 or 8 hours at 10A should be fine.

  42. #42
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Most PHEVs will charge happily enough overnight on a 3 pin socket at 10A due to the smaller battery packs.

    Even running a new feed from your consumer unit to an outdoor waterproof socket wonít cost much and youíll be saving on fuel every short trip so itíll soon pay for itself.

    If it was a full size EV that would take 30-40 hours to recharge on a 3 pin, then Iíd say a proper charge point would be required for long term safety.

    For a 15kWh ish PHEV battery though, 7 or 8 hours at 10A should be fine.
    Thanks again for the info. The PHEV is 17.5WH battery I think. It's a choice still between the D300 MHEV and the P400 PHEV I reckon. The idea of being able to charge the PHEV from a 3pin socket is tempting as we already have access to one outside. I wish I knew someone who had either for a real world review of them.
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  43. #43
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    Whatís your usual driving pattern on a weekly basis? Do you ever tow etc?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk2driver View Post
    Whatís your usual driving pattern on a weekly basis? Do you ever tow etc?
    No, never tow anything. Don't do many miles to be honest being retired, so no problem charging between usage I suppose. Some days it doesn't get used at all. If it is charged is it ok to leave it a day or two without any major loss? And would that be bad for the batteries? I could probably (ermm definitely) get away with a lot less car, but hey one life, live it.
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  45. #45
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    If the majority of journies are short then the PHEV is the best combination - means a lot of journies can be EV only

    No issues with the charging and usage you describe

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk2driver View Post
    If the majority of journies are short then the PHEV is the best combination - means a lot of journies can be EV only

    No issues with the charging and usage you describe
    Thanks. I've probably learned more about EVs in this thread than I ever knew before! Probably going to pop into the dealers in the next week or two and see what deal I can get. Will speak to the electrician about a new outside point as the one I have is in the wrong place as well!
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  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Another question for the technical minded. If you buy one of the MHEV or PHEV models are your batteries going to do the same as your phone batteries. I mean are they going to deteriorate so that at 5 years plus down the road it's knackered. Important consideration if you end up keeping it for 5 years plus.
    Yes and no.
    The battery chemistry is similar, but not identical.

    The very popular LG HG2 cell has a capacity of 3Ah, that drops to 2.15Ah after 600 cycles at 15A. Datasheet is here if anyone is interested in the graphs: https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/hg2.pdf
    The HG2 represents state of the art for Li-ion cobalt cells, not what's in your phone (that's Li-ion polymer), but it is what's used in cars.


    This means that if you fully charged and discharged your car daily, range would drop by 100*(1-2150/3000) = 28% after 600 days.

    Clearly this isn't happening, so the manufacturers must be playing games with the batteries to make them appear to last longer.

    #Game number 1.
    This isn't actually a game, doing this will make your cells last longer. The cells degrade much faster if they are more than about 92% charged. There's a chemical process that diminishes cell capacity whether or not you're using the cell, it happens faster at higher temperature & and higher voltage. The cell voltage is fairly constant between about 10% and 92% of capacity, but starts to rise exponentially after 92%. In this region, you get a lot more voltage & therefore a lot faster degradation, but you don't get that much more capacity. So not using this region will make the cells last longer, at the expense of a bit of range.

    A different process leads to cell damage at the lower end of the cells capacity. Again, if you avoid going near fully discharged, the cells will last longer.

    Manufacturer's definitely do this. Tesla's have a standard charge and a "range" charge. The standard charge doesn't fully top the battery up, whereas the range charge does.


    #Game number 2.
    Over provision.
    If a 28% loss over two years is unacceptable to your consumer base (people would stop buying your cars), then simply provide more capacity & don't tell anyone it's there.
    Make the pack 28% bigger. Only use 28% of the capacity on day 1. As the capacity drops, backfill it with some of the reserve.
    This is a win-win(-loose). Not only can you use the reserve to manage the percieved rate at which capacity is lost, but also the consumer is no longer fully discharging and recharging the pack. They're only using 72%.

    If you didn't allow them to access any of the reserve capacity it would take 600 cycles * 0.72 = 833 cycles to see the same capacity drop as shown in the datasheet. This is because two charge/discharge cycles have the same effect as one full cycle.

    I have no idea if the manufacturers are doing this, but I suspect they are because if they exposed the real pack capacity loss people wouldn't buy their cars.
    Of cousre there are disadvantages (-loose) as the bigger pack is heavier and more expensive.

  48. #48
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeveal View Post
    Yes and no.
    The battery chemistry is similar, but not identical.

    The very popular LG HG2 cell has a capacity of 3Ah, that drops to 2.15Ah after 600 cycles at 15A. Datasheet is here if anyone is interested in the graphs: https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/hg2.pdf
    The HG2 represents state of the art for Li-ion cobalt cells, not what's in your phone (that's Li-ion polymer), but it is what's used in cars.


    This means that if you fully charged and discharged your car daily, range would drop by 100*(1-2150/3000) = 28% after 600 days.

    Clearly this isn't happening, so the manufacturers must be playing games with the batteries to make them appear to last longer.

    #Game number 1.
    This isn't actually a game, doing this will make your cells last longer. The cells degrade much faster if they are more than about 92% charged. There's a chemical process that diminishes cell capacity whether or not you're using the cell, it happens faster at higher temperature & and higher voltage. The cell voltage is fairly constant between about 10% and 92% of capacity, but starts to rise exponentially after 92%. In this region, you get a lot more voltage & therefore a lot faster degradation, but you don't get that much more capacity. So not using this region will make the cells last longer, at the expense of a bit of range.

    A different process leads to cell damage at the lower end of the cells capacity. Again, if you avoid going near fully discharged, the cells will last longer.

    Manufacturer's definitely do this. Tesla's have a standard charge and a "range" charge. The standard charge doesn't fully top the battery up, whereas the range charge does.


    #Game number 2.
    Over provision.
    If a 28% loss over two years is unacceptable to your consumer base (people would stop buying your cars), then simply provide more capacity & don't tell anyone it's there.
    Make the pack 28% bigger. Only use 28% of the capacity on day 1. As the capacity drops, backfill it with some of the reserve.
    This is a win-win(-loose). Not only can you use the reserve to manage the percieved rate at which capacity is lost, but also the consumer is no longer fully discharging and recharging the pack. They're only using 72%.

    If you didn't allow them to access any of the reserve capacity it would take 600 cycles * 0.72 = 833 cycles to see the same capacity drop as shown in the datasheet. This is because two charge/discharge cycles have the same effect as one full cycle.

    I have no idea if the manufacturers are doing this, but I suspect they are because if they exposed the real pack capacity loss people wouldn't buy their cars.
    Of cousre there are disadvantages (-loose) as the bigger pack is heavier and more expensive.
    Sounds as though that's good news for those selling cars down the line.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeveal View Post
    Yes and no.
    The battery chemistry is similar, but not identical.

    The very popular LG HG2 cell has a capacity of 3Ah, that drops to 2.15Ah after 600 cycles at 15A. Datasheet is here if anyone is interested in the graphs: https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/hg2.pdf
    The HG2 represents state of the art for Li-ion cobalt cells, not what's in your phone (that's Li-ion polymer), but it is what's used in cars.


    This means that if you fully charged and discharged your car daily, range would drop by 100*(1-2150/3000) = 28% after 600 days.

    Clearly this isn't happening, so the manufacturers must be playing games with the batteries to make them appear to last longer.

    #Game number 1.
    This isn't actually a game, doing this will make your cells last longer. The cells degrade much faster if they are more than about 92% charged. There's a chemical process that diminishes cell capacity whether or not you're using the cell, it happens faster at higher temperature & and higher voltage. The cell voltage is fairly constant between about 10% and 92% of capacity, but starts to rise exponentially after 92%. In this region, you get a lot more voltage & therefore a lot faster degradation, but you don't get that much more capacity. So not using this region will make the cells last longer, at the expense of a bit of range.

    A different process leads to cell damage at the lower end of the cells capacity. Again, if you avoid going near fully discharged, the cells will last longer.

    Manufacturer's definitely do this. Tesla's have a standard charge and a "range" charge. The standard charge doesn't fully top the battery up, whereas the range charge does.


    #Game number 2.
    Over provision.
    If a 28% loss over two years is unacceptable to your consumer base (people would stop buying your cars), then simply provide more capacity & don't tell anyone it's there.
    Make the pack 28% bigger. Only use 28% of the capacity on day 1. As the capacity drops, backfill it with some of the reserve.
    This is a win-win(-loose). Not only can you use the reserve to manage the percieved rate at which capacity is lost, but also the consumer is no longer fully discharging and recharging the pack. They're only using 72%.

    If you didn't allow them to access any of the reserve capacity it would take 600 cycles * 0.72 = 833 cycles to see the same capacity drop as shown in the datasheet. This is because two charge/discharge cycles have the same effect as one full cycle.

    I have no idea if the manufacturers are doing this, but I suspect they are because if they exposed the real pack capacity loss people wouldn't buy their cars.
    Of cousre there are disadvantages (-loose) as the bigger pack is heavier and more expensive.
    Imagine #2 is what Tesla are doing when they claim their batteries can now be charged to 100%.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk2driver View Post
    Your point 4 is incorrect - in save mode and even to a lesser extent in hybrid mode the engine will charge the HV battery

    Not fully charge it and it comes at an efficiency penalty for the ICE but itís designed to provide some electric range at the end of a journey in an urban environment
    You might be right and I might be wrong but I havenít seen any evidence of this. After a long period in ĎHybridí oríSaveí mode I have never seen the battery range increase by more than a couple of miles I.e what youíd expect from recuperation.

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