I agree but each to their own and all that.
Really don't understand why many folk will pay a lot more for a military watch which was issued to someone they don't know.
"This was issued to a Royal Navy diver!"
"Are you a Royal Navy diver? Was it a sentimental purchase to remind you of your service?"
"No, I'm a management consultant from Epsom, but I have quite a deep bath."
I agree but each to their own and all that.
There's nowt so queer as folk.
I even know people who own several watches...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I suppose its no different than paying more for a Comex sub, apart from a lot less zeros at the end of course.
I don't get it either (or the COMEX thing), but they're not harming anyone, are they?
If it's an interest, enjoy, if not...
Although, if anyone collects 'issued watches' (of any type, military or otherwise) and then moans about Speedmaster owners being 'wannabe Astronauts', they lose some respect in my eyes.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
It’s like any area of collecting people get interested in particular areas, for me it’s not the person that owned a watch, or if it was on the balcony, it’s the idea that they are designed with a particular use (rough use) in mind. You also have the research and hunt that adds enjoyment.
To my mind, the manipulation, adulation and veneration required order to obtain a mass produced watch is a hell of a lot weirder. But that has been done to death and takes the thread off topic :-)
Each to their own.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 7th January 2022 at 10:41.
"They're worth twice as much if they killed somebody"
Im soon getting a GShock G350 off a chap at work,told me about some of the "Military" exercises it had been on!.
And so its a "Genuine" as far as used in the military watch,but not issued by them,He thought theirs weren't cool.
And because he aint into watches as we might be, all of the above meant nothing,he simply bought another G Shock and letting me have his old un.
Last edited by P9CLY; 7th January 2022 at 11:19.
It’s an area of collecting with interesting watches. In the main most military watches were never sold to the public, so the numbers generally in circulation 40, 50, 60 or even 100 years later are extremely limited.
I think the ‘issued’ thing does confuse. For the vast majority of military watches out there we have no history. The watch could have been issued to an Army or Navy or RAF stores, sat there for 40 years and been sold off in a military surplus sale. Any watch with a history behind it is clearly far more interesting to collectors, not unlike medals etc. However, even a simple issued watch with no history will be something that was never intended to be used by the general public as such.
I think as was said above “each to their own” and all that - I just don’t get it personally. Your mention of medals expands the point - who on Earth wants to own somebody else’s medals?!
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People with a respect for the men who earned them?
Collecting issued watches is no odder than someone collecting dive watches. In fact, as Ken alludes to, the fact that these can often be hard to come by is a draw, rarity makes them desirable alongside the provenance (real or imagined).
How does buying medals of someone you never met, who may even be dead, show them “respect”? If you want to show those people respect, and tangibly help, donate the money to Blesma or similar.
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The medal thing is something I have never really understood other than keeping their story ‘alive’.
I would not want to own the medals of a person I never knew, however family members is different.
I personally don’t see watches and medals in the same light, with a watch, as as has been said, it’s the research, the hunt and until recently the uniqueness of them, anyone can go and buy the latest watch from a shop if they have enough cash, with a military watch you need to put in leg work the majority of the time. You also end up with something you are not likely to see on another person.
If you take Ken as an example he has had to do some serious work in an effort to get the 10 early G10s and Navigators together. If you wanted 10 different 5513s you only have to walk down Burlington Arcade - hell you could buy virtually every version from one shop.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 7th January 2022 at 11:54.
Provenance ?
Rarity ?
Unique, visible features that distinguish them from the civilian equivalent?
Appearance that some may personally find attractive ?
Great rewards for high level and exhaustive research ?
Meeting some outstanding men whose lives put most of ours in perspective ?
Many of these watches represent not just a time in both diving and diving-watch history, but individuals' great achievements. Meeting the original owners can be immensely gratifying and at the same time humbling.
Here is just one man's tale (settle in with tea and HobNobs) : https://www.miltonaires.com/6309/a-m...raordinary-man
I admire him immensely and we remain friends to this day. That does not mean I imagine myself in his wetsuit.
Oh, and people on watch fora take you seriously if you have a few dozen like this :
Can't move in the Mersey area for handsome watch collectors with such pieces.
There is also the "acquisitive bug" which afflicts collectors in all fields. Consider the military Rolex alone :
Have a Mil Sub 5513 ? Want a 5517.
Have a 5517 0052? Want a 5517 W10.
Have a 5517 W10 ? Want a 5513/5517
Have a 5513/5517 ? Want an A/6538
Have an A/6538 ? Want a 5512.
Have a 5512 ? Want a SPAG 16600.
Have a SPAG 16600 ? Want a Hydrographic Survey 6150.
It's even worse with the Comex watches.
We're all on our own journeys :-)
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 7th January 2022 at 12:28.
For me the attraction is the history, to have something that has a history. I know it might be weird…same for me with vintage. I have a 43 year old watch and like to think about the life it’s had, where it’s been and who’s worn it. We all have our reasons for collecting a range of watches. Nobody else needs to ‘get’ those reasons, it’s an individual choice.
I've no particular interest military watches, issued or otherwise, but it can be interesting to speculate on the history of a vintage piece you have. If you could download it somehow, I certainly would - some would have had interesting lives. You could say it makes no difference, but I doubt there's anyone here who'd think that, for instance, a speedy that actually went to the moon wasn't a bit special in some way.
Couldn't agree more. Vintage watches that have a history make you wonder what they might have witnessed during their lives, every time you look at them. Military watches that have seen active service, that might actually have seen history in the making from the first row, hence their exponential popularity with collectors. Same with toolwatches - these days they're collector's subjects, once upon a time people's lives may have depended on them, they were the most personal subjects/tools of men who formed civilisation as we know today.
These thoughts provoke feelings a shiny new Rolex never will (well, it will in like 50 years).
Also, this may not be a popular opinion, but I like to think that people wearing historically important vintage watches have a refined taste, they put diligence and research into choosing a specific watch, one that resonates with their reasons and interests the most, and then start an often years-long quest into hunting them down.
As opposed to people with money who walk into a dealer's shop and buy an expensive watch that's good for showing off that's it. Apologies, do not mean to offend anyone, but that's why I believe Rolex has become unobtainable, not because the number of people with such sudden deep interest in horology have multiplied in the past year or two exponentially.
I don't get it, although I do have some issued watches.
Mostly because I like the particular watches that I like, and some of those are only to be found in issued form.
I have a Lemania HS9 for instance. There is no civilian alternative. None whatsoever, so I have an issued one.
Same with a Tutima ZUZ. although I could have asked Tutima to build me the same watch, it cost me less than half the price to buy a used issued one, so that is what I have.
I also have an Auricoste pocket chronograph issued by the Ministre de la Guerre. The issuing was immaterial to me, I just wanted to include a Lemania-powered pocket chrono in my collection, and this one popped up.
Same with my BBC issued stuff, although I freely admit that, because I have been generating a database of their issued timers, it made sense to have a couple.
And although I have had at least 5 Porsche Design chronos, I have never owned an issued Bund one, as they usually cost more, and many are a lot more beaten up.
Any form of collecting seeks out the rare and interesting, and ascribes a value to that rarity. For many, a lot of the interest and value is in that rarity.
Take the Dirty Dozen, a classic collector's set. I really doubt that anyone (and there are a couple of these sets on TZ-UK) thinks that those 12 are all must have watches, per se, but a full set seems like a good collecting target to aim for. And they are all issued. And I admit, I think they make a lovely set.
Some people are interested in the "issued" nature, some are not, And some in both those groups have issued watches.
D
Would you pay more for a Speedmaster that had actually been to the moon than for a regular one?
Would you pay more for Paul Newman's Daytona than any other Newman Daytona?
I think issued watches are similar (though on a more modest scale). There's a story attached to the watch that makes it a little more special than others like it. And some of us consider that added value. I don't collect issued watches myself, but as a mostly vintage collector I can see the logic of finding value in the history of one particular watch.
I get your point, but I think you're stretching it a lot comparing 'issued watches' to these.
Many will have sat in a store once and never have been on anyone's wrist. Likewise a lot of 'Comex' watches were on manager's wrists in an office somewhere in a town, not 100M down in the North Sea or off the African coast.
The 'history' in most cases is little different to any other vintage watch, imo.
A unique watch with an exceptional history is one thing, 'issued watches' are something else.
But, as I said earlier, an interest in them is no bad thing if it makes you happy, it's no odder than having a collection of blue dialed watches or all chronographs or anything else.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Oddly, no, I wouldn’t pay more for a real moon watch or Newman’s watch. I wasn’t an Apollo astronaut and I’m not Paul Newman. I would pay more for a watch I had something to do with (if I could find the Seamaster I wore on my first Afghan tour in 2002 for example I’d snap it back up at a premium), or if I found my dad’s long-sold Submariner. But otherwise these are just other people’s stories, other people’s lives. They have nothing to do with me and wearing their watch doesn’t change that. However, I’m prepared to admit that I may be odd having this view.
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Do/did the BBC supply CWC watches to news crews overseas in "interesting" locations?
On the medals thing, my brother in law started collecting medals about 40 years ago, but over time it grew into something much bigger. He has gone on to write books on the subject and regularly gives presentations at conventions and dinners etc so to him it has become a large part of his life. His wife is also involved in helping veterans apply for medals that they think they are entitled to or even to claim replacements for long lost original medals that were awarded.
I don’t think you can dismiss such collectors as nerds wearing other peoples medals in their bedroom like some sort of Cpl. Jones wannabe.
Also, is it any different to when the big boys on here get together and fill a table with milsubs and Comex divers and other rarities and when those watches are safely tucked back up in their safes or bank vaults they share photos of the watches with the rest us mortals to drool over.
Pretty much in line with my own thoughts! I find the fascination with James Bond - associated watches even stranger because he’s not real.
I blame my indifference partly on becoming older and more cynical coupled with 10 years of taking watches to pieces, when they’re stripped down to a pile of parts it's surprising how any mystique disappears!
As a younger man in the mid- late 90s buying 1950s/60s watches I was fascinated by the history and the stories these watches could tell, nowadays I don’t even think about such things.
Since I’ve been into watches I’ve been a details type of person. I couldn’t just walk into a High Steet or City Centre watch shop, buy a watch because I like the look of it and then go home and wear it. Call me weird, but that’s just not enough for me.
I have an urge to collect, always have had and not always watches and whatever I have collected I want to know as much about the subject as I possibly can. On the watches front when I first joined here learning about the differences between the various dials and bezel inserts and font types on the likes of Submariners and Sea Dwellers was really interesting. In fact I’m so sad that I can still remember the differences between the various Zenith Daytona dials without the need to refer to any reference documents.
A progression to military watches was I suppose a natural step and there are some really fascinating watches out there, just as there are some really nice guys who’s knowledge is incredible and they are always willing to help and share information. Sure, if you are going to go after something a little different the more research the better, but for me owning as I do a watch that was only issued to Navigation officers on nuclear submarines over 40 years ago is preferable to something that is massed produced, regardless of maker or model.
As stated several times on this thread, each to their own and long may it continue that way.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 7th January 2022 at 15:33.
I agree with all of this. I’m the same with watches, cars, everything really. Things which have stories and history are great, and military watches are part of that. It’s just the paying more for one that’s been issued that puzzles me. It’s the same watch, it just was part of someone else’s story.
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Okay, you are splitting the debate a little here. For the vast majority of issued watches there is no commercial equivalent, think Dirty Dozen, all CWC up to 1990 etc - all these watches were made exclusively to fulfil military orders.
Fast forward to modern times and yes, your issue becomes more real. Do you buy a CWC diver from Silvermans or pay twice as much for an identical watch because it has an issue number engraved on the back - I get your concern here and agree totally with it.
Just watched "Repair Shop",an old chap had an old clocking in machine restored.He used it in his 1st job at 16 and for whatever reason became the owner(missed the start,walking the dog).
So for the similar reason people like issued watches because of the history,I imagine the many people who clocked in and out over the lifetime of this machine,that is something to think about.
As already stated, the vast majority of issued watches have no history of who wore them, if indeed anyone at all. That’s what makes watches with a back story so desirable. A rare watch issued in low numbers 40 or more years ago and never made available to the general public is always going to be desirable amongst collectors, weird or not.
Sometimes people like the idea of military kit, that it's functional, rugged, built for a purpose etc, something that most people can't get, designed for a task most people couldn't do. Every so often they might look at their military watch & wonder what stories it could tell if it could talk (not realising that it may have spent its entire service career in the stores). That's fine.
If they start cutting about & making out their exploits would (if they were allowed to talk about them) make Andy Mcnab look like the Milky Bar Kid, that's very different.