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Thread: CWC (and Precista) - G10s and Navigators - 1980 to 1982

  1. #1
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    CWC (and Precista) - G10s and Navigators - 1980 to 1982

    There are a few fanboys of the earlier fatter cased G10s and Navigators issued to the MoD between 1980 and 1982 on here. In all, there are 11 watches that spread across the first three year period. Here is a group shot of 10 of the 11 watches out there.



    Starting with 1980:



    Left is the standard General Service (GS) watch: over 12,000 watches issued and by far the most common of all the watches.

    On the right is the Lumed Navigator: approx. 530 watches issued.

    Missing from the collection: Non Lume Navigator issued to Nuclear Submarines - possibly 12 or 25 issued, but only one complete and correct example is known about. A second watch has surfaced, pardon the pun. It has the correct dial, but has Lumed service replacement hands and case back, so it’s original issue number remains unknown.

    No service codes were used in 1980.

    The tricky year: 1981



    Left: 0552 Royal Navy issue GS watch - approx. 225 issued. No GS watches were issued to the Army (W10) during 1981.

    Middle: Non Lume Navigator issued to Nuclear Submarines - possibly 12 or 25 issued, only 3 examples accounted for including this one.

    The dial plots and flat hands are painted white and the circled T tritium logo is obviously not required. It is understood that tritium triggers the radiation detectors on board, so these watches have a different NSN to the lumed version.

    Right: lumed Navigator: just over 300 watches issued.

    1982 - 5 watches in all.



    Left: CWC Army issue (W10) GS watch - 9,500 watches issued

    Second Left: Army issue (W10) GS watch with Precista dial - 5,100 watches issued.

    Middle: second CWC Army issue (W10) GS watch - 2,200 watches issued.

    Second Right: 0552 (Royal Navy) issue - 330 watches issued.

    Right: Lumed Navigator - 184 watches issued.

    No further Navigators (Lumed or non lumed) were issued during the 1980s.

    Thanks for looking and for those after more information and specifics on serial numbers etc please head across to CWC Addict - a fantastic reference site for all things CWC.

    https://cwcaddict.com/

    Ken
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 6th January 2022 at 20:58.

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    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Almost there Ken
    Good work hunting the first 10 down. Just the unicorn poop version to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Almost there Ken
    Good work hunting the first 10 down. Just the unicorn poop version to go.
    Thanks John,

    There’s a thread on that watch over on MWR with images.

    No chance!!!

    Ken

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    Very interested to see your statistics on the issuance of Navigators. As the Navigator of a Royal Navy minesweeper in 1984 I had two CWCs on issue - one Navigator, and one W10 non-date version.

    In 1985 I want to Hong Kong to navigate a slightly larger Patrol Vessel, where IIRC there were 2 or 3 Navigators on my charge, plus another 3 CWC Quartz Divers. I liked the quartz Divers which were very well lumed, but as the Navigator found them less useful as they lacked a date - something I needed to refer to several times a day when looking up almanacs, tide tables, etc -so quickly reverted to the Navigator.

    In my next couple of ships as Navigator - a frigate and a large guided missile destroyer, respectively - I would have had 4 or 5 CWCs on my charge.

    At that time the RN had around 50-60 frigates and destroyers, plus another ~30 smaller ships, plus assorted large ships such as carriers, amphibious landing ships and Royal Fleet Auxiliaries. Assuming the large ships all had, say, 5 on issue, the frigates and destroyers had 4 and the minor war vessels had a couple apiece, that would add up to somewhere between 250 and 300 required, plus an allowance for unserviceable items, plus a stores reserve, less those returned by ships in long-term refit.

    It does suggest to me that there would have been very few that were never used or issued.

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    Master TheGent's Avatar
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    Fantastic post OP, and a really useful resource, thank you.

    I didn’t “get” CWC’s for a long time, but owning the fatboy reissue had really changed my perception of them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyJack View Post
    Very interested to see your statistics on the issuance of Navigators. As the Navigator of a Royal Navy minesweeper in 1984 I had two CWCs on issue - one Navigator, and one W10 non-date version.

    It does suggest to me that there would have been very few that were never used or issued.
    Thanks for this. The numbers believed to have been issued have been collated by enthusiasts over the years based on known examples that are still around. Those ranges of numbers are detailed on CWC Addict for each type of watch and year of issue. It is possible that watches slightly outside of those numbers pop up from time to time and that requires the known range to be amended.

    I worked for the MoD for 34 years in the Finance function and at the time of the issue of the watches I have I would have been a Clerical Officer on the bill paying teams checking and paying CWCs claims after delivery and receipt of the MoD Form 640 had taken place. Quantities of smaller items on the schedule of requirements section of the contract in the main would have been rounded numbers i.e. 12, 25, 50, 100 etc. That’s why for example it is highly unlikely that for the 1980 Non Lume Navigator only one or two would have been issued, more a case of only one or two have survived this long and fallen into the hands of collectors.

    When you consider the low numbers of Navigators issued between 1980 and 1982 it is not surprising that so few remain around after 40 years. I think this is where rare and valuable part company. If I had deep pockets and wanted a Milsub or a Paul Newman Daytona several seem to appear in auction every year, but try finding an early Navigator for sale, there just aren’t any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGent View Post
    Fantastic post OP, and a really useful resource, thank you.

    I didn’t “get” CWC’s for a long time, but owning the fatboy reissue had really changed my perception of them.
    Thanks, I really like the modern heritage reissues that CWC have produced. I know that the 1980 Fatboy has caused slightly more discussion than the others due to the general availability of originals. If you look at the 1980 auto diver, 1983 Quartz or the 1987 (88) SBS reissues, although fairly expensive the chances of getting anywhere near an original issued example are virtually nil. I do get the appeal of a new watch with a new movement under warranty but with the same vintage feel is appealing to many.

    Out of interest, although many like various types of NATO straps, if you wear the watch with a Rios Clip on strap designed for watches with fixed bars, the watch case sits much lower on the wrist.

    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 7th January 2022 at 10:57.

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    Not into these but can see the effort and care that has gone into building this up. Well done. You would be right to be proud. 👍

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Thanks, I really like the modern heritage reissues that CWC have produced. I know that the 1980 Fatboy has caused slightly more discussion than the others due to the general availability of originals. If you look at the 1980 auto diver, 1983 Quartz or the 1987 (88) SBS reissues, although fairly expensive the chances of getting anywhere near an original issued example are virtually nil. I do get the appeal of a new watch with a new movement under warranty but with the same vintage feel is appealing to many.

    Out of interest, although many like various types of NATO straps, if you wear the watch with a Rios Clip on strap designed for watches with fixed bars, the watch case sits much lower on the wrist.

    Great stuff.

    I was going to ask what straps you were using - thanks for sharing!

    Here’s my reissue today on a single pass leather strap made by our own vekslak - great watch and great strap.



    The diver reissues - particularly the 83 Quartz are really appealing. I sympathise with peoples thoughts on the prices being high for what you get, but then when I look at the relative prices of submariners and moonwatches I think the prices are not that high after all (aside from the Valjoux 7733 Pilot Chronograph!)


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGent View Post
    The diver reissues - particularly the 83 Quartz are really appealing. I sympathise with peoples thoughts on the prices being high for what you get, but then when I look at the relative prices of submariners and moonwatches I think the prices are not that high after all (aside from the Valjoux 7733 Pilot Chronograph!)
    I think with the 1980 and 1983 reissues they do occasionally come up second hand so you can save a few hundred here and there. The ‘87 SBS rarely comes up for sale second hand and seems to be permanently sold out. I think if you wanted one of those, best to complete an e-mail alert request when stock is back in and just buy there and then. I think Silvermans can sell those quicker than they can get them in.

    The 1980 at £2k is pricy, but I don’t think the other two at £900 each are and in reality unless someone has very deep pockets and one appears at auction, you (or anyone else) won’t get close to an original.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Thanks John,

    There’s a thread on that watch over on MWR with images.

    No chance!!!

    Ken
    I have been following that thread, I don’t post there much any but do read a few times a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I think with the 1980 and 1983 reissues they do occasionally come up second hand so you can save a few hundred here and there. The ‘87 SBS rarely comes up for sale second hand and seems to be permanently sold out. I think if you wanted one of those, best to complete an e-mail alert request when stock is back in and just buy there and then. I think Silvermans can sell those quicker than they can get them in.

    The 1980 at £2k is pricy, but I don’t think the other two at £900 each are and in reality unless someone has very deep pockets and one appears at auction, you (or anyone else) won’t get close to an original.
    The 1983 has definitely tempted me before, the quartz movement was the deciding factor in the past but now I have the Fatboy, I feel like I’ve seen the light!
    I do look out for used ones now and again.
    I’ve signed up for an email notification, but whether I’ll pull the trigger, I’m not sure - would like to see one in the flesh first I think. Having said that, I took a punt on the Fatboy and I love it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGent View Post
    The 1983 has definitely tempted me before, the quartz movement was the deciding factor in the past but now I have the Fatboy, I feel like I’ve seen the light!
    I do look out for used ones now and again.
    I’ve signed up for an email notification, but whether I’ll pull the trigger, I’m not sure - would like to see one in the flesh first I think. Having said that, I took a punt on the Fatboy and I love it.
    My problem is I’m sort of at a crossroads now, but wearing these watches for months on end has made me rethink the size sweet spot issue again. I used to think it was 42mm when I was wearing Speedmasters and similar sized divers etc, but then reduced it to 40mm. But now 36mm feels enough for me and has become a comfortable size.

    I have owned two of the 1980 reissue and three of the 1983 reissue and sold all of them and given the size issue I won’t be buying any more of these watches.

    I think it is definitely time for me to stop looking at watches that I have owned in the past and that is my watch based new year resolution for 2022.

    Maybe it’s time for a Hamilton 6B or GS which John is familiar with or a nice Smiths W10.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    My problem is I’m sort of at a crossroads now, but wearing these watches for months on end has made me rethink the size sweet spot issue again. I used to think it was 42mm when I was wearing Speedmasters and similar sized divers etc, but then reduced it to 40mm. But now 36mm feels enough for me and has become a comfortable size.

    I have owned two of the 1980 reissue and three of the 1983 reissue and sold all of them and given the size issue I won’t be buying any more of these watches.

    I think it is definitely time for me to stop looking at watches that I have owned in the past and that is my watch based new year resolution for 2022.

    Maybe it’s time for a Hamilton 6B or GS which John is familiar with or a nice Smiths W10.
    I can fully relate to that. The bigger watches can feel rather silly in size when I put them on now!
    I think that’s a wise resolution; to look forward - I’ve been caught in a loop of buying, selling and buying back the same models. I’ve signed up to the WPAC 2022 club as I don’t want to fall into that trap again.
    The Hamilton or Smiths would be a nice mechanical counterpoint to the CWC’s.


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    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    My problem is I’m sort of at a crossroads now, but wearing these watches for months on end has made me rethink the size sweet spot issue again. I used to think it was 42mm when I was wearing Speedmasters and similar sized divers etc, but then reduced it to 40mm. But now 36mm feels enough for me and has become a comfortable size.

    I have owned two of the 1980 reissue and three of the 1983 reissue and sold all of them and given the size issue I won’t be buying any more of these watches.

    I think it is definitely time for me to stop looking at watches that I have owned in the past and that is my watch based new year resolution for 2022.

    Maybe it’s time for a Hamilton 6B or GS which John is familiar with or a nice Smiths W10.
    You could do a lot worse than Hamilton 6bs
    The best looking ‘MK11’ type watch produced IMO
    I have one of mine on today.


    I have often thought about searching out one of each type of 6b
    IWC
    OMEGA
    HAMILTON
    SMITHS

    Then you have the similar watches issued to commonwealth militaries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    You could do a lot worse than Hamilton 6bs
    The best looking ‘MK11’ type watch produced IMO
    I have one of mine on today.
    That’s the fella John, what a stunning watch. There was a nice GS on e-bay this week and I messaged the guy. He bought it from Finest Hour for £2,000 when drunk one night and listed it for auction at £1,100. I was definitely going to bid, but he panicked when there were no bidders 24 hours before the end and withdrew the listing.

    Dunk listed a stunning Smiths a few months back and I should have bought that when I had the chance.

    I’m in no hurry at the moment and would also consider a 90’s CWC Navigator as long as it is numbered, there are a lot of C and no number watches out there which are okay if sensibly priced.

    I’ll just keep an eye on what gets listed for sale.

    I think you should post that pic in the issued watch thread and simply say this is why people buy military watches.
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 7th January 2022 at 20:26.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    You could do a lot worse than Hamilton 6bs
    The best looking ‘MK11’ type watch produced IMO
    I have one of mine on today.

    I have often thought about searching out one of each type of 6b
    IWC
    OMEGA
    HAMILTON
    SMITHS

    Then you have the similar watches issued to commonwealth militaries
    I have the IWC, Hamilton and Smiths and will never let them go. Perfect black faced, three handers, the epitome of design and functionality for me. I’d also include the Hamilton 9721 as a perfect example, albeit not military.

    I’ve owned three FA Omegas 53s and let them go, it’s not quite right. Maybe a TA would work, but now out of my price range.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    I have the IWC, Hamilton and Smiths and will never let them go. Perfect black faced, three handers, the epitome of design and functionality for me. I’d also include the Hamilton 9721 as a perfect example, albeit not military.

    I’ve owned three FA Omegas 53s and let them go, it’s not quite right. Maybe a TA would work, but now out of my price range.


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    The TA is a gorgeous watch, function meets form
    Just need to find one.

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    I agree with all that has been said about the Hamilton 6b and the Smiths W10, pretty much perfect 3 handers and keepers, always make me smile when I put them on. The Omega '53 though is a step above in my opinion, slightly larger and better engineered case and brilliant movement. I have one with an unusual dial that I am 99% sure is an MOD dial. I don't really like the FA dial and can't afford a true TA, so this fits the bill pretty much perfectly for me.

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    Must confess that I didn’t know about the differences between the thin arrow and fat arrow, every day is school day as they say.

    Most dealers seem to claim there are probably less than 100 original dials out there, as they would in order to bump the price up. I did find one listed for sale:

    https://vintagewatchspecialist.com/p...6b-542-2787-53

    There is another in Italy on Chrono24.

    The collector in me says the TA is the one to own…

  21. #21

    Where would we all be if there were no Navigators

    @Wallasey Runner
    Thanks for showing a really focused collection. Got to say best thread i've read this year.
    Big shout to JJ for the mega effort on the website. Its brilliant place for any CWC fans.
    Some strong showings of mechanicals too

    Fun fact
    Every G10 CWC is a potential navigation as they all have date wheels :)

    Cheers
    Pat

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TapAptPat View Post
    @Wallasey Runner
    Thanks for showing a really focused collection. Got to say best thread i've read this year.
    Big shout to JJ for the mega effort on the website brilliant site for any budding CWC fans.
    Some strong showings of mechanicals too

    Fun fact
    Every G10 CWC is a potential navigation as they all have date wheels :)

    Cheers
    Pat
    Thanks Pat,

    Much appreciated and agreed that JJ is a great guy with a museum grade collection and a really nice guy to boot. I agree in principal with your comment about every Fatboy being a potential Navigator, but a lot of date wheels are removed and when I had my 1982 Navigator restored the crown and stem part of the watch needed to be adapted to accept the three clicks which would accept the auto date change facility, so it’s still a job for a skilled watchmaker and I have found no better than Ollie of this parish who has a real enthusiasm for these watches and has serviced most of the watches that I own.

    Ken

  23. #23
    Master
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    To the OP, a fantastic collection.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrudd View Post
    To the OP, a fantastic collection.
    Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyJack View Post
    Very interested to see your statistics on the issuance of Navigators. As the Navigator of a Royal Navy minesweeper in 1984 I had two CWCs on issue - one Navigator, and one W10 non-date version.
    Around 1200 nav's appear to have been manufactured in the three years between 1980 and 82. I have 1199/82 which I acquired directly from a surplus contractor but in u/s condition, as the battery had been left in it since its last use; since repaired.

    Seems to have been no more manufactured until 1994, then 96 and 97. These appear to be very small batches, with the 94's obviously being conversions of standard G10's.

    The non-lum are more tricky to quantify however.

    Slightly out of focus image of my 80 and 82 Nav's


  26. #26
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    I must admit I didn’t realise how rare the 1982 Navigators were until I tried to find one and similar to Tim the one I was eventually offered was a basket case. There is a thread on the restoration over on MWR. When I was looking for one, even trying to find an image of one wasn’t easy. The reference sites like CWC Addict had them, but the Instagram crowd didn’t seem to own one.

    The watch as bought:





    And after a full restoration requiring the services of Olivier Chambert and James Hyman:





    On watch forums there seems to be a few collectors with 1980 and 1981 Navigators and a few people who own some of the 1990s Navigators, but seriously I would put the 1982 in the same bracket as the non lume navigators, you can count the number of people who post that they own one on one hand.

    Just to finish off a gratuitous 80 to 82 Navigator shot.



    Grail watch is an over used term on here, but I would dearly love to find a 1980 Non Lume Navigator.
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 9th January 2022 at 10:20.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I must admit I didn’t realise how rare the 1982 Navigators were until I tried to find one and similar to Tim the one I was eventually offered was a basket case. There is a thread on the restoration over on MWR. When I was looking for one, even trying to find an image of one wasn’t easy. The reference sites like CWC Addict had them, but the Instagram crowd didn’t seem to own one.

    The watch as bought:





    And after a full restoration requiring the services of Olivier Chambert and James Hyman:





    On watch forums there seems to be a few collectors with 1980 and 1981 Navigators and a few people who own some of the 1990s Navigators, but seriously I would put the 1982 in the same bracket as the non lume navigators, you can count the number of people who post that they own one on one hand.

    Just to finish off a gratuitous 80 to 82 Navigator shot.



    Grail watch is an over used term on here, but I would dearly love to find a 1980 Non Lume Navigator.
    Looks superb now, that’s a lovely restoration job.

    Grail is a term that annoys me in watch collecting circles, when someone talks about something they can go and buy from a shop that afternoon.
    The 1980 Non Lume Navigator truly fits the definition, something on the very edge of impossibility. All the best in your hunt….

  28. #28
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    Couple more very scarce RN GS watches - Hamilton W10 71 to the same NSN as the Smiths and a later 79 CWC W10


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