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Thread: daily second acceptable variance

  1. #1
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    daily second acceptable variance

    Appreciate this can depend on the movement and the cost of the movement, however trying to understand what is acceptable. I have a Dornbluth 99.1 which I got in November. It's currently loosing 30 seconds a day, compared to an atomic solar watch. This is based on being on the wrist for 12 hours a day, and stored dial up when off. The movement is a manual wind. Any insight appreciated.

  2. #2
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Have you written to the watch makers for advice? Personally I would take it as unacceptable - I assume you fully wind the watch every day??
    "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so”. HHGTTG

  3. #3
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    That sort of accuracy is unacceptable in a 1k Seiko, never mind something costing what, 5k? I’d be well disappointed.

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    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Most of my Vostoks are better than that
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  5. #5
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    It would be too far out for me especially for a manual wind - but it’s no biggie (or I should say it wouldn’t worry me too much). If its consistently losing 30 seconds a day it’ll only need a tweak to get it much closer to bang on.
    Last edited by Neil.Ldn; 2nd January 2022 at 19:31.

  6. #6
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    As I’ve got a 99.1 on order, I would say that is very far out of spec, if it’s a new watch. I would speak with Dornblüth.

    Dave


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  7. #7
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    Thanks guys, was thinking it was a bit beyond acceptable. I'll catch up with Dornbluth next week..

  8. #8
    Master mycroft's Avatar
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    daily second acceptable variance

    There’s no way I’d be happy with that - in 2 days it’s going to visibly be showing the wrong time. Last year I bought two watches powered by Seiko NH35 movements, one of which cost me just over £100. Both show variance of less than 10 seconds per day. I consider that acceptable. 30 seconds per day from a Dornbluth needs addressing.

    Simon
    Last edited by mycroft; 2nd January 2022 at 23:17.

  9. #9
    I’m sure they'll sort it, if still under warranty.
    It's just a matter of time...

  10. #10
    Master Marios's Avatar
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    Terrible time keeping, I would be sending it for servicing without a question.

  11. #11
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    Are you sure you’re winding it fully? It surprises me how many people don’t know how to wind a hand- wound watch, they’re afraid of damaging it. I suggest you wind it full morning and evening to confirm its behaviour.

    If the 30 secs/ day loss is confirmed the watch needs investigating. Possibly its been regulated poorly and will be an easy fix, or the movement could be running badly having developed a fault.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for that.. to be honest, I'd wind it 20 turns every morning, so will try fully winding it morning and evening, and see if any improvement over a few days..and give an update..

  13. #13
    I think there was another Dornblüth owner on here who had not great timekeeping on their new one too?
    I can't recall the outcome (if they did try to do anything about it) but it did indeed seem sloppy for such a watch.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakar View Post
    Thanks for that.. to be honest, I'd wind it 20 turns every morning, so will try fully winding it morning and evening, and see if any improvement over a few days..and give an update..
    Why do you think 20 winds is sufficient? Most hand- wound watches need 40-50 twists of the crown to reach full wind.

    Simply wind a hand- wound watch till the crown won’t turn, that’s the time-honoured tradition.......you’ll know when its fully wound!

  15. #15
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    Have you written to the watch makers for advice? Personally I would take it as unacceptable - I assume you fully wind the watch every day??
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakar View Post
    Thanks for that.. to be honest, I'd wind it 20 turns every morning, so will try fully winding it morning and evening, and see if any improvement over a few days..and give an update..
    this may explain it - as it’s a manual wind it won’t get fully wound unless you wind the mechanism.
    "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so”. HHGTTG

  16. #16
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    A watch that loses 30 secs a day doesn’t need to be fully wound but sent back for investigation. It should keep time within specs throughout the unwinding of the spring, not be 30 secs fast in the first half and 30 sec slow in the second.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  17. #17
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Could it have gotten magnetised in transit or since you got it? You can download this app and check if the watch is indeed magnetised;


    Last edited by ryanb741; 3rd January 2022 at 10:09.

  18. #18
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    I am an absolute nazi when it comes to accuracy. I expect any Rolex / Omega / JLC to be within +/- 30 seconds a week and I will not accept anything less.

    I check the time on both the wifes watch and mine (both Rolex) every Saturday morning and they are always within this tolerance. The moment they go out of this two times in a row, it's time to visit the AD. I won't take any excuses, just do it and get it right.

  19. #19
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    Mick P, please edit that first sentence. All you need say is you’re a stickler for accuracy.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabiscuit View Post
    Mick P, please edit that first sentence. All you need say is you’re a stickler for accuracy.
    This is one instance where I won't take no for an answer, if the watch is inaccurate I expect it to be put right, so I will accept that I am not a pleasant person when this crops up.

  21. #21
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I am an absolute nazi …
    Lest we forget.

  22. #22
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    daily second acceptable variance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I will accept that I am not a pleasant person when this crops up.
    You are never a pleasant person in your posts anyway
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    This is one instance where I won't take no for an answer, if the watch is inaccurate I expect it to be put right, so I will accept that I am not a pleasant person when this crops up.
    I really struggle to understand why you would revel in describing yourself as a Nazi in this respect. Are you being deliberately provocative here?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabiscuit View Post
    I really struggle to understand why you would revel in describing yourself as a Nazi in this respect. Are you being deliberately provocative here?
    You seem more worried about it than me. Timing accuracy is important to me, always has been and always will be.

  25. #25
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    I'd say if accuracy is the be all then having a Rolex/Omega etc is asking for trouble - far better to get a GS with a 9f movement or a Citizen Chronomaster - you'd get all the fancy finishing and luxury feel but allied with a completely accurate movement that's far more accurate than any mechanical could manage.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    I'd say if accuracy is the be all then having a Rolex/Omega etc is asking for trouble - far better to get a GS with a 9f movement or a Citizen Chronomaster - you'd get all the fancy finishing and luxury feel but allied with a completely accurate movement that's far more accurate than any mechanical could manage.
    Every Rolex I have ever owned has been serviced by Rolex and is always within 30 seconds a week. I don't want that accuracy, I expect it.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    You seem more worried about it than me. Timing accuracy is important to me, always has been and always will be.

    Yep, accuracy is important to me too. But it’s just bizarre to describe a need for good timekeeping as Nazi-like. I’d be mortified if someone was to describe me as being a Nazi.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabiscuit View Post
    Yep, accuracy is important to me too. But it’s just bizarre to describe a need for good timekeeping as Nazi-like. I’d be mortified if someone was to describe me as being a Nazi.
    It's a common expression, don't worry about it.

  29. #29
    Grand Master Passenger's Avatar
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    Heck I've got miyota powered watches doing 30 seconds a week!

    The P stands for provocative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    It's a common expression, don't worry about it.
    Where down the Con Club

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
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  32. #32
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Every Rolex I have ever owned has been serviced by Rolex and is always within 30 seconds a week. I don't want that accuracy, I expect it.
    Sure but with the GS and Citizen you'd get 5 seconds per year.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Sure but with the GS and Citizen you'd get 5 seconds per year.
    But Rolex have the cachet and hence they are who they are.

  34. #34
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    Ryan, thanks for the app.. I'll give it a shot..
    Starting from scratch this morning and watch fully wound, so will monitor it for the next few days, and go from there..update to follow...and thanks for the advise..
    TBH, fully wound. The watch should last for 48 hours, and therefore in my mind, even if it's only wound 50%, it still should be accurate...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    I'd say if accuracy is the be all then having a Rolex/Omega etc is asking for trouble - far better to get a GS with a 9f movement or a Citizen Chronomaster - you'd get all the fancy finishing and luxury feel but allied with a completely accurate movement that's far more accurate than any mechanical could manage.
    Dirk Dornbluth did the adjustments on the original PRS-2 watches and the two I had were ±1 second/day so the OP's watch should be keeping better time than this. I'd certainly expect it from any Dornbluth watch, it'd be part of the reason for getting it.

  36. #36
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakar View Post
    Ryan, thanks for the app.. I'll give it a shot..
    Starting from scratch this morning and watch fully wound, so will monitor it for the next few days, and go from there..update to follow...and thanks for the advise..
    TBH, fully wound. The watch should last for 48 hours, and therefore in my mind, even if it's only wound 50%, it still should be accurate...
    Probably - but best check accuracy when fully wound? Has the manufacturer got back to you at all? All the best. M
    "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so”. HHGTTG

  37. #37
    Master mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    It's a common expression, don't worry about it.
    In the 1960s, possibly .

    Simon

  38. #38
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    A quick update. Fully wound on the 3rd, and wound again at night and the following morning.
    Just checked it now, and lost 23 seconds.. I'll contact dornbluth and see what can be done...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakar View Post
    A quick update. Fully wound on the 3rd, and wound again at night and the following morning.
    Just checked it now, and lost 23 seconds.. I'll contact dornbluth and see what can be done...
    For clarity, please calculate the rate/day, your comment is ambiguous. The watch is definitely losing time but it's worth knowing by how much, that'll help the discussion when you send it back. Ideally, share your figures when corresponding, the more info you can give the better.

    As I stated earlier, there are tow scenarios: the watch is either running badly or it's running well but needs regulating. It's frustrating but either way it'll get sorted. Quality control lets a lot of smaller manufacturers down, I wonder whether the movements are adjusted on the bench but not optimised after casing up. There's many a slip between cup and lip.......a watch should always be checked after casing up in my opinion and it's not wise to rely on the movement running OK because it did so on the bench.

  40. #40
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    Following reply from the manufacturer, to which I have highlighted my disappointment. After a week, the loss is 65 seconds


    The accurancy you are describing is right on the edge of our tolerance (/-3 /+7 ).

    Generally, we regulate the watches rather to be faster than slow. Also, our movements work with a low frequency of only 18.000, not like many others with 28.000. The advante is, that the movement has less wear over the years, the downside is, that the watch is not as accurate as movements with a higher frequency.

  41. #41
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakar View Post
    Following reply from the manufacturer, to which I have highlighted my disappointment. After a week, the loss is 65 seconds


    The accurancy you are describing is right on the edge of our tolerance (/-3 /+7 ).

    Generally, we regulate the watches rather to be faster than slow. Also, our movements work with a low frequency of only 18.000, not like many others with 28.000. The advante is, that the movement has less wear over the years, the downside is, that the watch is not as accurate as movements with a higher frequency.
    Something does not add up.

    65sec over 7d is an average of -9s/day which is outside their stated tolerance of -3/+7 - not “on the edge”.

    What is puzzling is you started this thread saying it lost 30s/d? What’s changed? As others have said they have had theirs adjusted to within 1 or 2sec. If you are not happy I’d get it regulated/fixed. Good luck. Martyn
    Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 10th January 2022 at 20:05.
    "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so”. HHGTTG

  42. #42
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    9 seconds a day loss is out of their tolerance, and out of what I would accept. I’m also very interested in how they respond as I have one on order.

    I would expect it to be properly adjusted with express shipping at their cost. Is it a new watch?

    Dave


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  43. #43
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    Yeah, new in November...will let you know..
    Martyn, my mistake at the start, but after following the advise, it's still not right ..

  44. #44
    Grand Master sundial's Avatar
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    When I bought my s/h 99.1 (from a forum member) a local used watch dealer checked its timekeeping on his very elaborate timing machine (not a Timegrapher) and was amazed to see that its rate was 'spot on' ie zero gain/loss in face up position ... so a Dornblüth 99.1 is capable of very accurate timekeeping. Unlikely your watch is magnetised if it's losing time ... magnetised movements usually gain time. Are you wearing the watch on your wrist or just checking the timekeeping without wearing it? You could inspect the movement using a loupe to see if there's any visible dust; you could also ask a watchmaker to check the amplitude and rate in all positions. Or maybe there's a helpful forum member living near you who has a Timegrapher? Where do you live?
    Last edited by sundial; 12th January 2022 at 12:46.
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  45. #45
    Master huytonman's Avatar
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    My 99.1's (Ive had three) were all within a sec or two a day - Dirk wouldn't send a watch out if it was this poor and like other think you need to wind it properly to get some real data points.
    Good luck
    Keith

  46. #46
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    The reply from the manufacturer is disappointing, the lower beat rate of the watch is no justification and I take issue with their implication that the performance is acceptable. Basically, their default reaction is to distrust the owners claim.

    Had the OP been more rigorous he could have produced a full data set, showing the rate on the wrist, the rate dial- up and the day to day variation. Inevitably there are errors in measuring small changes over a few hours but it allows a picture to be built up. Easiest way is to use a quartz analogue watch for this.

    I always recommend fully winding a hand- wound watch twice/ day to ensure its running with high amplitude and to provide consistency.

    A fully tabulated data set is harder for the manufacturer to argue with. However, one obvious point needs making; is the OP certain that his reference timer is correct?

    If the watch is losing 9 secs/ day it should be investigated and that’s a task for the manufacturer. Ideally, a set of timegrapher readings in all six positions would cast more light on the performance, but this shouldn’t be necessary.

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Easiest way is to use a quartz analogue watch for this.
    Actually, the easiest way might be to use the watch tracker app. In that it will reference everything against the known synchronised correct phone time, tabulate and graph all results user just has to press a button.

  48. #48
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    daily second acceptable variance

    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Had the OP been more rigorous he could have produced a full data set, showing the rate on the wrist, the rate dial- up and the day to day variation. Inevitably there are errors in measuring small changes over a few hours but it allows a picture to be built up. Easiest way is to use a quartz analogue watch for this.
    That’s not the owner’s job. He buys a new watch, it doesn’t live to his reasonable expectations, watch is faulty. Maybe by just a simple tweak, but it is irrelevant : in no case the buyer should create a documented audit, that’s the manufacturer s job once he received the returned watch under guarantee.

    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I always recommend fully winding a hand- wound watch twice/ day to ensure its running with high amplitude and to provide consistency.

    A fully tabulated data set is harder for the manufacturer to argue with.
    Rubbish. Again you may be correct as to the procedure the manufacturer (or a watchmaker if the watch wasn’t new and guaranteed) should follow but in no way is it reasonable to expect the owner to jump through those hoops to get the manufacturer to do the right thing.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 13th January 2022 at 08:42.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  49. #49
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    Agreed, the owner shouldn't have to persuade the manufacturer, but judging from their initial response that seems to be the case.

    Also, bear in mind that a human being (not a robot) is going to receive the watch and rectify the issues, the more info provided the better, trust me on this one. It should be straightforward with a new watch but that's not always the case.

    Providing data also sets the bar higher, it's clear that the owner will be checking the watch v. carefully.

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