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Thread: Birmingham Watch Fair this Sunday ?

  1. #1
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    Birmingham Watch Fair this Sunday ?

    Anyone know if the Watch Fair is on this Sunday ? (28th).
    Long way for me but might make the effort, havenít been since the change of organiser.
    Is it caveat emptor or is everyone kosher ?
    Cheers.


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  2. #2
    The website says it is on this Sunday.
    Be aware the info also says that most dealers accept cash only with no cash machine on site. Free cash machines near by at the NEC train station.
    I cannot comment on the quality of the sellers

  3. #3
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    I went to the last one - it is cash only.

    Regards the sellers I got the vibe that most were kosher, I only bought a couple of cheapies that tickled my fancy.

  4. #4
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    As far as I know it is still on.

    A friend of mine will be stalled out there so I must ring him to take some of my stuff to sell.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  5. #5
    The Fair at the National Motorcycle Museum is ON this Sunday 28th Nov.

    Stallholders will be in place by 07:30 (3:30 alarm call for me then :-( ).

    The quality of the event has risen over the past few fairs. Personally I'd really like to see some more high-end watches available for sale, but I suppose the level of security and demand from visitors restricts this.

    It's still a good few hours with plenty to mooch through. I'll have a big bag of choccy ťclairs on the go on my stand in Hall 1.

    MW

  6. #6
    Craftsman levkov's Avatar
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    Unfortunately it's too far for me, but i'm going to the London Brunel uni one next Sunday.
    I've been to the Birmingham one once as a stallholder years ago, of course there was a snowstorm all the way there (happens once in every 5 years, that pretty much describes my luck, eh?)
    Had an amazing time, only sold 2 of my watches, an Omega PO and a vintage steel IWC, but met some amazing ppl and chatted away the entire day
    Overall good experience, even though one of my watches got stolen - it was a £20 empty Omega quartz case, by far the cheapest of my ~50 watches offered for sale. I consider it lucky rather than unlucky, but lesson learned

  7. #7
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    Caveat Emptor. There are honest and knowledgable sellers and there are also those with fakes and Frankens on display. Don't leave your common sense at the door and you'll be fine, otherwise not so much.

  8. #8
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    Caveat Emptor. There are honest and knowledgable sellers and there are also those with fakes and Frankens on display. Don't leave your common sense at the door and you'll be fine, otherwise not so much.
    Yes indeed.

    I ran into a chap I know at Brunel years ago who had just purchased a Tudor Explorer that I told him was a fake. Took it back to the dealer for a refund but some people will try and pass off dodgy stuff at these places.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vortex89 View Post
    I went to the last one - it is cash only.
    One sign of a dodgy dealer is that they will only take cash. I would avoid that sort like the plague. Credit card or bank transfer where everything is above board is the only way to go.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    One sign of a dodgy dealer is that they will only take cash. I would avoid that sort like the plague. Credit card or bank transfer where everything is above board is the only way to go.
    According to earlier posts, the fair is cash only, which would make it tricky if you wanted to go.

    Do debit cards count as cash?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    One sign of a dodgy dealer is that they will only take cash. I would avoid that sort like the plague. Credit card or bank transfer where everything is above board is the only way to go.
    You clearly don't go to many watch fairs, they are not like your local Supermercado. Cash is king.

    By your logic, all there are dodgy and you are probably tarring Mike who posted above with the same brush.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    You clearly don't go to many watch fairs, they are not like your local Supermercado. Cash is king.

    By your logic, all there are dodgy and you are probably tarring Mike who posted above with the same brush.
    Cash deals means no tax records and no audit trails. - simple as that.

    Today any small business can take a card using those little portable handsets designed for those who operate all over the place such as plumbers and hairdressers etc. Not only does it take your card it also helps to do the accounts, so the reasons for not using them is obvious.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Cash deals means no tax records and no audit trails. - simple as that.
    That's rather presumptious of you and factually incorrect. Plenty of businesses deal either primarily or solely in cash and record all of their cash dealings.

    those little portable handsets that you refer to come with a monthly hire charge and usually a monthly bank charge as well. A sole trader might want to avoid both of those and cash is the obvious choice. Bank all the cash, account for all your expenses and the rest is profit with HMRC completely on board. In these days of technological advances we all too easily forget there are some who don't quite have the access or capabilities that most of us do.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    That's rather presumptious of you and factually incorrect. Plenty of businesses deal either primarily or solely in cash and record all of their cash dealings.

    those little portable handsets that you refer to come with a monthly hire charge and usually a monthly bank charge as well. A sole trader might want to avoid both of those and cash is the obvious choice. Bank all the cash, account for all your expenses and the rest is profit with HMRC completely on board. In these days of technological advances we all too easily forget there are some who don't quite have the access or capabilities that most of us do.
    Next time a plumber wants payment in cash, try to pay by cheque or card. You will find that the prices goes up to cover tax and VAT. Another word for cash payments is the black economy and we all know that.

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    Your wife should get the Victoria Cross for putting up with you Mick
    She is either deaf or has the patience of a Saint.


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    He never fails to entertain bless him. Imagine being so naive. Our very own Forrest Gump.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    He never fails to entertain bless him. Imagine being so naive. Our very own Forrest Gump.
    Well that was a deadly blow to my side of the argument.

    The simple point is that it must be madness from a security point of view for hundreds of people to carry loads of cash on themselves. If you got a mobile phone you can do a bank transfer on the spot and then everything is above board. Cash is now all but dead.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    Your wife should get the Victoria Cross for putting up with you Mick
    She is either deaf or has the patience of a Saint.


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    We have just celebrated our 50th anniversary, so yes she is a saint.

    BTW from your grumpy disposition I dare say you have had more wives than Henry V111.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    We have just celebrated our 50th anniversary, so yes she is a saint.

    BTW from your grumpy disposition I dare say you have had more wives than Henry V111.
    Still on the first-25yrs this April
    As a friend said regards anyone doing it for the 2nd time didnít deserve the good fortune of losing the first one.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Next time a plumber wants payment in cash, try to pay by cheque or card. You will find that the prices goes up to cover tax and VAT. Another word for cash payments is the black economy and we all know that.
    The plumber I use will take payment by cash, card or bank transfer (I think that he may even take PayPal). I guess that it depends on the circles that you mix in.

    If a plumber earns less than £85k per year then he doesn't need to be vat registered so he won't need to cover vat. I suspect that the majority of plumbers earn less than that, certainly independents. I'm not sure what tax you are referring to?

    The black economy isn't another word for cash payments. It's not even what you are referring to. What you are referring to is the grey economy where businesses are legal but some transactions may not be reported. They are grey transactions. The black economy refers to 'businesses' that operate entirely outside the tax system and hence will most likely be illegal.

    Businesses use cash for a variety of reasons and not all for tax avoidance. Card fraud is a big problem and it's usually the businesses that lose out when a payment is fraudulently made so many small businesses still take cash only. More and more do take card but it's purely for the convenience of the customer as there's no benefit at all to the business.

    Incidentally, are you aware that if you sell a watch for more than £6000 and you sell it for more than you paid for it, that you have to declare and pay tax on the profit? I wonder how many people on this forum have made such a transaction and not declared the profit? Are you also aware that if you 'gift' a watch of the same value less than 7 years before you die, when you do die, those you gift it to will have to pay inheritance tax on it?

  21. #21
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    I would imagine everyone here is aware of the tax rules etc but it does not change the main point that insisting on cash for an item that could cost anything between say £5 and £10k is sheer lunacy in this day and age.

    Five years ago it would have been acceptable but in this today we all have mobile phones and we can all very safely conduct a financial transaction using them for a bank transfer. What case is there for any trader to refuse a BT in this day and age. It is certainly safer than carrying a wad of cash around.

    Sorry but this is utter madness. The only realistic argument you have got is the old one of "if you don't like it, go elsewhere".

    This is becoming repetitive so let's agree that you are prepared to go around with a pocket full of cash whilst I would certainly go elsewhere.

  22. #22
    Master Skier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Incidentally, are you aware that if you sell a watch for more than £6000 and you sell it for more than you paid for it, that you have to declare and pay tax on the profit? I wonder how many people on this forum have made such a transaction and not declared the profit?
    No, you don't! That would be Capital Gains Tax and personal possessions with a lifespan of less than 50 years are excluded and the gov.uk site specifically mentions watches and clock as being classed in the personal possession category.

  23. #23
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    I would imagine everyone here is aware of the tax rules etc but it does not change the main point that insisting on cash for an item that could cost anything between say £5 and £10k is sheer lunacy in this day and age.

    Five years ago it would have been acceptable but in this today we all have mobile phones and we can all very safely conduct a financial transaction using them for a bank transfer. What case is there for any trader to refuse a BT in this day and age. It is certainly safer than carrying a wad of cash around.

    Sorry but this is utter madness. The only realistic argument you have got is the old one of "if you don't like it, go elsewhere".

    This is becoming repetitive so let's agree that you are prepared to go around with a pocket full of cash whilst I would certainly go elsewhere.
    Not everyone has.

    My mobile doesn't even have a camera.

    I just use it for phone calls.

    When I'm at a watch fair, antique or boot sale I always have a pocketful of cash and believe me, this is what the vast majority do.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Not everyone has.

    My mobile doesn't even have a camera.

    I just use it for phone calls.

    When I'm at a watch fair, antique or boot sale I always have a pocketful of cash and believe me, this is what the vast majority do.
    This.
    Although I'm not averse to paying by card if the facilities are there, or even a direct bank payment for someone I know.
    It's a very long time since I went to a watch fair, bit I visit some of the antique fairs and the vintage toy fairs - a lot of the vendors stand all of them, it's easy to build up a bit of a rapport and some trust.

    The talk of tradesmen bumping their prices for a card payment is bulls*1t sorry. Its the other way around - you'll get a quote for the job and can often shave a few quid off by offering to pay cash. If they generated a different price for NOT getting paid in cash they would be up in front of trading standards pretty sharpish, it's illegal to vary prices depending on payment method.

  25. #25
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    Back on topic, did anyone go today ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skier View Post
    No, you don't! That would be Capital Gains Tax and personal possessions with a lifespan of less than 50 years are excluded and the gov.uk site specifically mentions watches and clock as being classed in the personal possession category.
    As with everything you really need to read the small print. Did you notice when reading the .gov.uk site that jewellery is included. Have you asked yourself the question why jewellery is included and but antique clocks or watches aren't? Jewellery is included because typically it's made of a precious metal which is seen as a capital investment. Mechanical watches are typically not seen as a capital investment because they may not last a long time (less than 50 years) and generally lose value. However, take a watch with a precious metal case and/or a significant increase in market value over a period of time and HMRC may well take notice.

    Of course, the simplest way to find out is to contact HMRC when you have sold your Rolex for more than you paid for it and say that you would like to declare the profit. When they say there is no tax to pay, you will know that you're correct.

  27. #27
    Journeyman theancientmariner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OHG1X View Post
    Back on topic, did anyone go today ?
    Not me, too much snow up our way.

  28. #28
    I went today, spent nothing but there were lots of wads of £20 notes changing hands.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Are you also aware that if you 'gift' a watch of the same value less than 7 years before you die, when you do die, those you gift it to will have to pay inheritance tax on it?



    The value of the gift would be added back to the estate and the IHT calculated from there and paid from the estate, the person receiving the gift has no liability.

    Assuming the gifting had been recorded and the true value recorded accordingly.

    Youíd be surprised how many items of value are only found well after the estate has been settled and distributed.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    As with everything you really need to read the small print. Did you notice when reading the .gov.uk site that jewellery is included. Have you asked yourself the question why jewellery is included and but antique clocks or watches aren't? Jewellery is included because typically it's made of a precious metal which is seen as a capital investment. Mechanical watches are typically not seen as a capital investment because they may not last a long time (less than 50 years) and generally lose value. However, take a watch with a precious metal case and/or a significant increase in market value over a period of time and HMRC may well take notice.

    Of course, the simplest way to find out is to contact HMRC when you have sold your Rolex for more than you paid for it and say that you would like to declare the profit. When they say there is no tax to pay, you will know that you're correct.
    For what its worth ,, most Gold watches are priced above the scrap value . If you paid scrap value and it went up then youd be liable for CGT . If you paid above and you sold the watch for profit the proftit is in the watch/brand not the Gold.
    Watches and CARS NO CGT .
    Tom

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomaitch View Post
    For what its worth ,, most Gold watches are priced above the scrap value . If you paid scrap value and it went up then youd be liable for CGT . If you paid above and you sold the watch for profit the proftit is in the watch/brand not the Gold.
    Watches and CARS NO CGT .
    Tom
    CGT is typically applied to appreciating assets. Classic Cars, watches, art etc...are seen as a depreciating asset (In general I believe).
    Scrap gold does not attract CGT if sold as a watch rather than as gold. Most watches would struggle to have more than 4 or 5 ounces onboard - and age dependant, would have an increase of no more than say £1000/oz. This is below the £20k annual allowance. I imagine Jewellery unless something special and of world importance will be under the radar and too much trouble to collect if it were CGT applicable.

    In the UK, investment grade gold is divided into three camps. Investment bars, UK money and foreign gold coins. UK Money has no CGT. Investment bars and foreign coins (Krugers, Eagles etc) do have CGT implications.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Not everyone has.

    My mobile doesn't even have a camera.
    Wow. Time to make transition to 21st century:-)
    Though I find it charming in a way.

  33. #33
    Master Joe.K's Avatar
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    Stone me itís a watch forum not a tax forumÖ please donít feed the troll!
    Watch fairs can be fun they can also be a total waste of time.. Share some experiences, some lessons,dos and doníts, you know general Ďwatchyí stuff and letís MTTGA (make this thread great again)!


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  34. #34
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    Did any of you make it down and if so what sort of stuff was on offer?

    I didnít get the chance to go as I had the kids but want to get down to the next one


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  35. #35

    Birmingham Watch Fair this Sunday ?

    I went and it was a good show with two rooms of traders and lots of cash changing hands. I thought the watches available were of a higher standard than I remembered pre covid. Still some tat there mind you but lots of decent unusual pieces as well.


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibrisjason View Post
    I went and it was a good show with two rooms of traders and lots of cash changing hands. I thought the watches available were of a higher standard than I remembered pre covid. Still some tat there mind you but lots of decent unusual pieces as well.


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    Nice, Iíll have to make sure I catch the next one. Thanks


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  37. #37
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    Canít be bothered to drive a 230 mile round trip to do the Birmingham Watch Fair, if it was nearer I might.

    Have to smile at the comments regarding cash trading, cash has always been king at antiques fairs and watch events. When I visited fairs more often I used to wear my Ďdealingí shirt, a traditional Levi denim shirt with the breast pockets stuffed with cash. I would use the old trick of offering all tge cash I had on me for a watch, proceeding to open my wallet and pull out the limited quantity of remaining cash. If I succeeded I would go back to another watch I fancied, recharge the wallet and repeat the negotiation in a similar manner! Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnít, I miss the fairs!

  38. #38
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Not everyone has.

    My mobile doesn't even have a camera.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Wow. Time to make transition to 21st century:-)
    Though I find it charming in a way.
    I am very charming.

    And just to add to the charm, I still use fountain pens, have guitar amps that have valves and even (unbelievably!) still have old fashioned mechanical watches!

    Mini (large) pocket computers with your whole life in is not for me.

    My eldest lost his phone recently. His world was turned upside down.

    I don't need that.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  39. #39
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Canít be bothered to drive a 230 mile round trip to do the Birmingham Watch Fair, if it was nearer I might.

    Have to smile at the comments regarding cash trading, cash has always been king at antiques fairs and watch events. When I visited fairs more often I used to wear my Ďdealingí shirt, a traditional Levi denim shirt with the breast pockets stuffed with cash. I would use the old trick of offering all tge cash I had on me for a watch, proceeding to open my wallet and pull out the limited quantity of remaining cash. If I succeeded I would go back to another watch I fancied, recharge the wallet and repeat the negotiation in a similar manner! Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnít, I miss the fairs!
    That's the spirit Paul!
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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  40. #40
    Brunel watch fair this Sunday in Uxbridge.

  41. #41
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    A friend of mine stalled out at Brum but I haven't found out how well he did yet although he should be coming to mine this week to pick up some of my watches to sell for me at Brunel.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

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    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

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