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Thread: Absolutely tragic Alec Baldwin story - one dead, one seriously injured

  1. #101
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    I'm not an armourer but I am around guns on film sets regularly and I've been instructed by a film armourer as to safety procedures.
    There are times when I hold some responsibility for units taking shots that feature firearms ( an actor firing a gun in close proximity to another actor or shooting themselves in the head etc).
    These are inevitably done without any ammunition in the guns with the actors miming the shooting and recoil ( very slightly so as not to overplay it) . The flash and slide reciprocating and cartridge ejections then go in as VFX later ( easy peasy its a junior artists job).

    However if I'm on set as the vfx supervisor I'm usually shown the gun by the armourer to verify that its unloaded.

    The procedure to follow is ; armourer announces "firearm on set" usually followed by "no rounds" . The phrase "cold gun" is not one I have ever heard on a film set as all guns are considered and handled as if loaded at all times as a safety protocol even if they are known to be unloaded. Before passing anyone a firearm the armourer will present the weapon and demonstrate its unloaded or unload it before handing it over ( the only person on set who will load the gun before passing it to an actor will be the armourer).

    The armourer will unload the magazine and show it to the relevant person and confirm its status for example "three rounds" before reloading it and passing it to the actor or whomever . If the gun is supposed to be unloaded the armourer will do the exact same thing regardless of knowing that its unloaded . Mag out , present the empty mag , slide back , present the breach as being empty and also insert a finger to doubly confirm no cartridge is in there.

    If it's then passed to anyone ( and it only gets passed to people the armourer has checked out) then they are expected to repeat the same procedure ; mag out and verify its state , slide back and verify the breach is unloaded.
    If that person puts it down the next time they pick it back up even though its not been touched by anyone else and is in plain view they repeat the status check on the gun ; mag out , slide back , verify its empty.
    If they then pass it back to the armourer same procedure check the status and show it to the armourer , the armourer will repeat the procedure before securing the gun off set.

    For a revolver similar procedure , cylinder out verify its empty , visually confirm nothing is in the barrel before closing the cylinder.

    This is one reason that firearms on film sets do not normally have plugs or grills in the barrel as the plugs themselves have the possibility to become bullets if they malfunction. Real guns are generally used on set as they are actually cheap , robust and because the manufacturing tolerance are safer than using a replica. If an actor needs to be active with a gun that is not required. Its usually a rubber gun cast from a real one , airsoft guns and replicas are generally not used as they can be a safety risk if they break and splinter and also are comparatively expensive compared with even the real gun.

    Basically every time the weapon is picked up or put down its state is checked by all parties involved.


    "firearm on set" is usually then announced
    "there will be gun fire on this take" is usually announced by the 1st prior to the cameras rolling.
    Earplugs are handed out to the cast and crew (usually macho numpties who don't spend time on action films will refuse them and enjoy tinnitus later.)

    The guns are never discharged directly at anyone always off to the side ( ideally) and if its within about 15 ft then usually no rounds are used and the actors mime it and the flash and cycling goes in as vfx later .

    The armourer will collect the guns after the take , check them , including running a brush through the barrel if they are not happy with the visual confirmation and reload them if required . Actors who need to be depicted firing a gun to empty and then reloading it are given tuition and rehearsal beforehand and the armourer is always close by monitoring.

    There are also low powered utm rounds which can cycle the slide and which are becoming more common that stage blanks , the difference being that you won't get a flash but the actor gets some recoil to work with and the guns will cycle . However these are still treated the same as live stage blanks from a safety perspective
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OmbW8dauAA
    https://www.police1.com/police-produ...NixOWqdXp8g5T/

    On two occasions on non UK film sets I have checked guns that were to be used when actors were shooting themselves or someone else at close range and found a live blank loaded in the breach . These guns were mag out and even had tape over the slot ( which I felt was a bit unnecessary compared with just using an empty mag) ironic they went to that trouble and then left a round up the spout. Thats also why if I'm required to put the gun activity in on a shot with an actor with a firearm up at their face I always insist on checking the gun and the armourer always knows why and won't question it.

    I've seen one director who was messing around with a blank loaded firearm to the extent that I finally took it away from him unloaded it and handed it back to the armourer who was to meek to do it himself ( this was also an Indian film)

    Generally speaking the gun safety on a UK film shoot is taken extremely seriously . I can only assume that this production Rust was rather low end . Whoever handed over the gun to Baldwin is ultimately the person in the wrong; but the armourer should also not have had guns lying around and an AD thinking it was okay to grab them.

  2. #102
    Officials confirmed on Wednesday that live bullets, including the round it is believed killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injured director Joel Souza, were found on the set of the movie Rust last week after actor Alec Baldwin fired a gun during a rehearsal – but no decisions have been made yet about any criminal charges.

    “We believe that we have, in our possession, the firearm that was fired by Mr Baldwin. This is the firearm we believe discharged the bullet,” said Santa Fe’s county sheriff, Adan Mendoza, said at a press conference on Wednesday.
    Film-makers showed “complacency” about safety on set, the sheriff said initial inquiries had led the authorities to believe.
    He added that his investigators believe they have also recovered “the spent shell casing from the bullet that was fired from the gun”.

    The single, apparently live round that injured Souza and probably also killed Hutchins was found in Souza’s shoulder after he was treated for his injuries at a local medical center, Mendoza said when giving updates on the investigation relating to last week’s tragedy on set in New Mexico.


    Mendoza also said that officials recovered about 600 items of evidence, including three firearms and approximately 500 rounds of ammunition from the set of the desert western that was being filmed.


    Two of the guns were non-functional. The third one, handed to Baldwin on the assumption it was safe, was a .45 Colt-style real antique gun.


    Possible additional live rounds, including the bullet the authorities believe killed Hutchins, will be submitted to the FBI crime lab in Quantico, Virginia, confirmed the sheriff.



    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by rodia77 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I just don’t understand why there was any need to have live ammunition on set at all, then there would be no scope for confusion.
    I've been wondering the very same.
    It struck me that I hadn't seen this obvious question asked in any reporting media before. So when I read this quote from Mendoza today:

    "We know there was one live round, as far as we're concerned, on set. We're going to determine whether we suspect that there were other live rounds, but that's up to the testing. But right now, we're going to determine how those got there, why they were there, because they shouldn't have been there."
    https://edition.cnn.com/entertainmen...-21/index.html

    I was like 'ha, finally'.

    Now the fun part. I'm pretty sure I first read this quote in this BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59068976 -- but when I read it again now, it's not there. I checked the browsing history on my two machines and phone for good measure, and I only have a log there with that BBC page from before 10pm. So either it was removed due to some weird agenda or my mind is playing tricks on me to drive me into a conspiracy theory paranoia.

    Edit: OK, the quote is there again now. They keep updating the article, changing the content and titles but leaving it all under the unchanged unique URL. Very unprofessional, if you ask me.
    Last edited by rodia77; 28th October 2021 at 01:59.

  4. #104
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    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc

    Rumours they were using live rounds for target practice on site

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatdogwood View Post
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc

    Rumours they were using live rounds for target practice on site
    That rumours been around since the start, I think it was described as ‘recreational gun use’ which is a new term for me.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    I'm not an armourer but I am around guns on film sets regularly and I've been instructed by a film armourer as to safety procedures.
    There are times when I hold some responsibility for units taking shots that feature firearms ( an actor firing a gun in close proximity to another actor or shooting themselves in the head etc).
    These are inevitably done without any ammunition in the guns with the actors miming the shooting and recoil ( very slightly so as not to overplay it) . The flash and slide reciprocating and cartridge ejections then go in as VFX later ( easy peasy its a junior artists job).

    However if I'm on set as the vfx supervisor I'm usually shown the gun by the armourer to verify that its unloaded.

    The procedure to follow is ; armourer announces "firearm on set" usually followed by "no rounds" . The phrase "cold gun" is not one I have ever heard on a film set as all guns are considered and handled as if loaded at all times as a safety protocol even if they are known to be unloaded. Before passing anyone a firearm the armourer will present the weapon and demonstrate its unloaded or unload it before handing it over ( the only person on set who will load the gun before passing it to an actor will be the armourer).

    The armourer will unload the magazine and show it to the relevant person and confirm its status for example "three rounds" before reloading it and passing it to the actor or whomever . If the gun is supposed to be unloaded the armourer will do the exact same thing regardless of knowing that its unloaded . Mag out , present the empty mag , slide back , present the breach as being empty and also insert a finger to doubly confirm no cartridge is in there.

    If it's then passed to anyone ( and it only gets passed to people the armourer has checked out) then they are expected to repeat the same procedure ; mag out and verify its state , slide back and verify the breach is unloaded.
    If that person puts it down the next time they pick it back up even though its not been touched by anyone else and is in plain view they repeat the status check on the gun ; mag out , slide back , verify its empty.
    If they then pass it back to the armourer same procedure check the status and show it to the armourer , the armourer will repeat the procedure before securing the gun off set.

    For a revolver similar procedure , cylinder out verify its empty , visually confirm nothing is in the barrel before closing the cylinder.

    This is one reason that firearms on film sets do not normally have plugs or grills in the barrel as the plugs themselves have the possibility to become bullets if they malfunction. Real guns are generally used on set as they are actually cheap , robust and because the manufacturing tolerance are safer than using a replica. If an actor needs to be active with a gun that is not required. Its usually a rubber gun cast from a real one , airsoft guns and replicas are generally not used as they can be a safety risk if they break and splinter and also are comparatively expensive compared with even the real gun.

    Basically every time the weapon is picked up or put down its state is checked by all parties involved.


    "firearm on set" is usually then announced
    "there will be gun fire on this take" is usually announced by the 1st prior to the cameras rolling.
    Earplugs are handed out to the cast and crew (usually macho numpties who don't spend time on action films will refuse them and enjoy tinnitus later.)

    The guns are never discharged directly at anyone always off to the side ( ideally) and if its within about 15 ft then usually no rounds are used and the actors mime it and the flash and cycling goes in as vfx later .

    The armourer will collect the guns after the take , check them , including running a brush through the barrel if they are not happy with the visual confirmation and reload them if required . Actors who need to be depicted firing a gun to empty and then reloading it are given tuition and rehearsal beforehand and the armourer is always close by monitoring.

    There are also low powered utm rounds which can cycle the slide and which are becoming more common that stage blanks , the difference being that you won't get a flash but the actor gets some recoil to work with and the guns will cycle . However these are still treated the same as live stage blanks from a safety perspective
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OmbW8dauAA
    https://www.police1.com/police-produ...NixOWqdXp8g5T/

    On two occasions on non UK film sets I have checked guns that were to be used when actors were shooting themselves or someone else at close range and found a live blank loaded in the breach . These guns were mag out and even had tape over the slot ( which I felt was a bit unnecessary compared with just using an empty mag) ironic they went to that trouble and then left a round up the spout. Thats also why if I'm required to put the gun activity in on a shot with an actor with a firearm up at their face I always insist on checking the gun and the armourer always knows why and won't question it.

    I've seen one director who was messing around with a blank loaded firearm to the extent that I finally took it away from him unloaded it and handed it back to the armourer who was to meek to do it himself ( this was also an Indian film)

    Generally speaking the gun safety on a UK film shoot is taken extremely seriously . I can only assume that this production Rust was rather low end . Whoever handed over the gun to Baldwin is ultimately the person in the wrong; but the armourer should also not have had guns lying around and an AD thinking it was okay to grab them.
    Thanks for the detailed response D, incidentally I remember Sylvester Stallone commenting on a UK chat show many years ago that the UK pyrotechnics guys were the best in the world (with the American industry falling way behind) - unsurprisingly the armoury side is included in that praise.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatdogwood View Post
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc

    Rumours they were using live rounds for target practice on site
    Words fail me.
    Thanks for the link.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    I'm not an armourer but I am around guns on film sets regularly and I've been instructed by a film armourer as to safety procedures.
    (…)
    Thank you for taking the time to post this. Very informative and interesting.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Possu View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to post this. Very informative and interesting.
    +1 fascinating read.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by TKH View Post
    +1 fascinating read.
    Yes, agreed.

    I found the cost as a justification for using a real gun strange though - surely the cost is miniscule in the context of the film's budget.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Yes, agreed.

    I found the cost as a justification for using a real gun strange though - surely the cost is miniscule in the context of the film's budget.
    On a film set the replicas have to be secured and looked after as if they were real guns. The gun itself isn't the biggest cost so you may as well use a real one , they are also easier to move around because they are registered and have paperwork . A gun is a gun as far as a film set is concerned because most of the crew won't know the difference and that could lead to trouble ...so assuming its always real and loaded is a safety protocol even if you know 100% its a replica . Only takes that one time when you were wrong... so its always thought of as real and its always loaded even if you know it isn't...you follow the protocol ...its a gun after all.

    The real ones are not much more expensive and made to a better quality of overall engineering , ironically the real thing is often safer than a replica as it won't break , splinter , detach from its webbing have bits fall off mid way through a shoot , get broken when someone sits on it etc . The real one is just a safer machine.

    Even rubber cast guns are secured by the armourer ( whenever you see an actor running with a gun...its a rubber ... in case they knock their own or someone else's teeth out with it.)

    I've seen one very famous actor injure herself on set with a gun , she improvised without saying and put her bare arm over the slide to surreptitiously hide a gun she was firing whilst acting that she was assassinating someone ...slide took a bite out of her arm , vfx probably got an extra £10k for removing the plaster and wound in post later from the next few weeks of shooting.
    I've regularly seen a lot of action stars with the tell tale plaster on the webbing of their hands after getting slide bite from not handling a weapon well.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    On a film set the replicas have to be secured and looked after as if they were real guns. The gun itself isn't the biggest cost so you may as well use a real one , they are also easier to move around because they are registered and have paperwork . A gun is a gun as far as a film set is concerned because most of the crew won't know the difference and that could lead to trouble ...so assuming its always real and loaded is a safety protocol even if you know 100% its a replica . Only takes that one time when you were wrong... so its always thought of as real and its always loaded even if you know it isn't...you follow the protocol ...its a gun after all.

    The real ones are not much more expensive and made to a better quality of overall engineering , ironically the real thing is often safer than a replica as it won't break , splinter , detach from its webbing have bits fall off mid way through a shoot , get broken when someone sits on it etc . The real one is just a safer machine.

    Even rubber cast guns are secured by the armourer ( whenever you see an actor running with a gun...its a rubber ... in case they knock their own or someone else's teeth out with it.)

    I've seen one very famous actor injure herself on set with a gun , she improvised without saying and put her bare arm over the slide to surreptitiously hide a gun she was firing whilst acting that she was assassinating someone ...slide took a bite out of her arm , vfx probably got an extra £10k for removing the plaster and wound in post later from the next few weeks of shooting.

    I've regularly seen a lot of action stars with the tell tale plaster on the webbing of their hands after getting slide bite from not handling a weapon well.
    Im not questioning anything and your explanation was great but I’m a “but why” kind of bloke with things like this.

    Surely to god in this day and age where anything can be made to look realistic, why aren’t just hollow models used that have no possibility of being loaded or be able to fire anything? If CGI etc is so good why take risks with peoples lives.....doesn’t make any sense what so ever. It would also negate the protocol which clearly exists around using replicas and it would be no different than handing over any other inanimate prop to an actor.

  13. #113
    Master TKH's Avatar
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    MR.D

    CGI …fascinating subject and agree surely this will mean the end of guns on set with any capability to fire anything? Could recoil be achieved by springs or Co2 ?..

    on a linked topic I recall when Brandon Lee was sadly killed on set of The Crow before the end of filming the biggest task was getting CGI dept to finish his scenes with him running on roof tops which they eventually managed no easy task nearly 30 years ago…

    you must have your work cut out ‘erasing’ actors tattoos in period dramas !.

    I do hope this tragic needless loss of life is a wake up call..

  14. #114
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    CGI isn't that great though is it.

    I guess it's also far more expensive to do everything CGI in post than give an actor a real gun with blanks.

    Stupid in the extreme though to have mixed recreational shooting with a film set.

    This looks worse and worse for the armourer.

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  15. #115
    So basically let’s put this in to perspective......there’s a film being made with snakes, most of the shots can be CGI’d or a fake/model one can be used.


    Right here are the snakes (insert actor name)
    Sorry what?
    Yeh the snakes
    But I thought we were using fakes
    Well yeh we are but I’ve brought some real ones along anyway....don’t worry though....this ones made of rubber for which we have to treat exactly the same as if it were real.
    Why?
    Protocol!
    Yeh but it’s fake it can’t hurt me
    Yeh I know but it might get mixed up
    Why and what with?
    Well this one here
    What’s that?
    Well it’s a python?
    Ok it it dangerous, does it bite?
    Oh yeh, it can bite but it has no venom and so it’s harmless really.
    So why bring it along.
    Well I’m not sure, I suppose just in case
    Right ok so what’s in the 3rd box
    Ah yeh, well that’s a Black mamba
    you F**KIN what mate!
    Yeh a mamba, don’t worry though I think it’s ok as I’m pretty sure, well 80% sure we’ve made it safe and had its fangs removed.
    But, what, ummm, it doesn’t make sense, surely we can just use the fake and cgi, that way everyone’s safe and there’s no ridiculous protocols around safety
    Yeh you’d think that but hey...

  16. #116
    Master TKH's Avatar
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    Nowt wrong with fake snakes


  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    So basically let’s put this in to perspective......there’s a film being made with snakes, most of the shots can be CGI’d or a fake/model one can be used.


    Right here are the snakes (insert actor name)
    Sorry what?
    Yeh the snakes
    But I thought we were using fakes
    Well yeh we are but I’ve brought some real ones along anyway....don’t worry though....this ones made of rubber for which we have to treat exactly the same as if it were real.
    Why?
    Protocol!
    Yeh but it’s fake it can’t hurt me
    Yeh I know but it might get mixed up
    Why and what with?
    Well this one here
    What’s that?
    Well it’s a python?
    Ok it it dangerous, does it bite?
    Oh yeh, it can bite but it has no venom and so it’s harmless really.
    So why bring it along.
    Well I’m not sure, I suppose just in case
    Right ok so what’s in the 3rd box
    Ah yeh, well that’s a Black mamba
    you F**KIN what mate!
    Yeh a mamba, don’t worry though I think it’s ok as I’m pretty sure, well 80% sure we’ve made it safe and had its fangs removed.
    But, what, ummm, it doesn’t make sense, surely we can just use the fake and cgi, that way everyone’s safe and there’s no ridiculous protocols around safety
    Yeh you’d think that but hey...
    You’re a mechanic right? You use a lift in the shop and work under the car? You do know that fatal accidents have happened with the lifts, lifts collapsing, cars dropping down crushing people etc? Doesn’t make sense. You could have the car down on the ground, build special tools with long bent handles with mirrors and cameras and such. That way you could reach every nut and bolt that needs accessing from below with a dozen special hard to use tools each. Everybody would be safe.

  18. #118
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Hello? All those about fake guns, rubber guns, no live rounds…
    In the UK, sure but we’re talking about the US of A here.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  19. #119
    Armourer’s lawyer claims ‘disgruntled’ Rust worker planted live rounds to ‘sabotage’ set: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1950660.html

  20. #120
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Hello? All those about fake guns, rubber guns, no live rounds…
    In the UK, sure but we’re talking about the US of A here.
    Oh yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rodia77 View Post
    Armourer’s lawyer claims ‘disgruntled’ Rust worker planted live rounds to ‘sabotage’ set: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1950660.html
    Whooaaa that's some claim if true!
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Oh yes.



    Whooaaa that's some claim if true!
    Could be a lawyer trying to infer some ‘reasonable doubt’ into the matter? If they had any proof rather than a hypothetical I’m sure there would be arrests.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  22. #122

  23. #123
    ^^^^

    vultures flying in.

  24. #124
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Rust film armorer sentenced to 18 months in prison for fatal on-set shooting

    Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s punishment is most substantial criminal consequence yet over Alec Baldwin shooting cinematographer
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rer-sentencing

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