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Thread: Absolutely tragic Alec Baldwin story - one dead, one seriously injured

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    There was a movie armourer on the news last night, and he said its all camera angles, no actor ever points a gun directly at another, at least on any set that is complying with the regs.
    That just can't be right, at least if we're including prop guns that aren't real firearms. There are movie scenes where people have guns pressed against their heads, in their backs, even in their mouths.


  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    That just can't be right, at least if we're including prop guns that aren't real firearms. There are movie scenes where people have guns pressed against their heads, in their backs, even in their mouths.
    This and hostage scenes were the first things into my head along with Dusk Til Dawn.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Yes, quite possible at close range with a revolver or pistol.



    Sounds like a poor safety regime in place. Will be grist to the mill for the lawyers.
    Baldwin is co-producer of ‘Rust’. That’s an interesting angle when it comes to responsibility.

    USA Today mentions that the crew walked off due to the lack of safety regulations.
    Last edited by thieuster; 23rd October 2021 at 15:55.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    That just can't be right, at least if we're including prop guns that aren't real firearms. There are movie scenes where people have guns pressed against their heads, in their backs, even in their mouths.

    Yes it is right, unless as you said you include prop guns. A gun capable of firing either rounds, blanks, or both would not be used in the example you have given. That will be a dummy prop gun.

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    If you are a shooter you know the abc of checking a gun before handling it. If you are an actor and not a shooter you will trust the film armourer when he tells you the gun is safe and unless offered specific training will not have a clue of the dos and donts.
    True.
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  6. #56
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    Would it not be more appropriate to allow the authorities time to conduct an investigation before waffling on about something that needs an element of expert analysis.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Would it not be more appropriate to allow the authorities time to conduct an investigation before waffling on about something that needs an element of expert analysis.
    “The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.”

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    If you are a shooter you know the abc of checking a gun before handling it. If you are an actor and not a shooter you will trust the film armourer when he tells you the gun is safe and unless offered specific training will not have a clue of the dos and donts.
    I think you are correct, in as much as it aligns with what actors do on set - they act, and have everything else done for them.

    Me? I’d check myself or say ‘show me’.

    or - in the auditing world................. “Trust.............. but verify”

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Would it not be more appropriate to allow the authorities time to conduct an investigation before waffling on about something that needs an element of expert analysis.
    No waffling you say? That would certainly get rid of at least 50% of the responses on here.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Would it not be more appropriate to allow the authorities time to conduct an investigation before waffling on about something that needs an element of expert analysis.

    In the world of the 'virtual pub', which this is - you always get some who do that whole "we should wait for the official enquiry and not discuss possible failures" thing............

  11. #61
    When I was into full bore pistol, revolver and rifle shooting it would take less that 10 seconds to check that any firearm was safe.

    What a tragic and unnecessary accident.

  12. #62
    True, but on a film set where the armourer is paid to do this as a professional you would just get on with your acting and expect he has done his job like you do yours.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    In the world of the 'virtual pub', which this is - you always get some who do that whole "we should wait for the official enquiry and not discuss possible failures" thing............
    Mick P, aka

    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by manganr View Post
    True, but on a film set where the armourer is paid to do this as a professional you would just get on with your acting and expect he has done his job like you do yours.
    I would expect the armourer to personally hand the weapon to the user, and demonstrate that it was safe. Just like an electrical isolation authority would do before allowing work to commence on electrical systems.

    It all boils down to "How do you ensure?..............."

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    Quote Originally Posted by manganr View Post
    True, but on a film set where the armourer is paid to do this as a professional you would just get on with your acting and expect he has done his job like you do yours.
    She, the armourer was a she, Thell Reeds daughter as a matter of fact.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    When I was into full bore pistol, revolver and rifle shooting it would take less that 10 seconds to check that any firearm was safe.
    Easy to be wise after the event but I agree with you. Downside, you take 10 seconds of time on the set; upside, avoid the horrific death and injury.

  17. #67
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    Pi$$ poor H&S management.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I would expect the armourer to personally hand the weapon to the user, and demonstrate that it was safe. Just like an electrical isolation authority would do before allowing work to commence on electrical systems.

    It all boils down to "How do you ensure?..............."
    Totally agree
    If someone hands you a weapon you should get them to show clear before you take it, and vice versa. In the film industry I would expect the armourer to demonstrate it is safe before handing it to the actor.
    Being an actor should also not preclude you from undergoing basic firearm handling training before you start on the film. You would not (or should not at least) start work in any other line of business without being competent with the tool you are using.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Totally agree
    If someone hands you a weapon you should get them to show clear before you take it, and vice versa. In the film industry I would expect the armourer to demonstrate it is safe before handing it to the actor.
    Being an actor should also not preclude you from undergoing basic firearm handling training before you start on the film. You would not (or should not at least) start work in any other line of business without being competent with the tool you are using.
    I agree thats what should happen, but when you can buy a gun in the supermarket and there are guns available that look like Lego, the USAs relationship with firearms isn't known for its common sense. Firearms training probably comes under the heading 'Gun Control' and will be rigorously denied by the NRA etc.

    Cheers..
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    ……… Firearms training probably comes under the heading 'Gun Control' and will be rigorously denied by the NRA etc.
    Not really…….

    https://explore.nra.org/interests/safety-and-education/


    The Lego gun is ridiculous though.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Not really…….

    https://explore.nra.org/interests/safety-and-education/


    The Lego gun is ridiculous though.
    The Eddie Eagle training programme is astounding…

    Children should not be put in a position where they may unexpectedly encounter a gun.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    The Eddie Eagle training programme is astounding…

    Children should not be put in a position where they may unexpectedly encounter a gun.
    In an ideal world yes, you're right. But I'd rather a child knew what to do if they did. And in a country with so many firearms in private ownership, education is surely better than ignorance.

    Years ago I worked in an office in a small company with 6 other people. One of them asked me to value an old air rifle. He brought it in the office in a case, and at lunchtime I checked it was unloaded and took it out to have a quick look and then leaned it against his desk.
    A company rep walked in the office, saw the air rifle, immediately picked it up and pointed it at the owner and said "Now I've got you!". He seemed offended when I said if he pointed it at me he'd need a proctologist.
    Education is key.
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  24. #74
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    Yes, there is an expectation that if given a "cold" gun, it isn't loaded. However, unless the circumstances are very narrow I don't think Alec Baldwin can be blameless (even putting aside he's a co-Producer and is legally responsible too). He's been in countless movies, using guns countless times. You never point a gun until you intend to fire it. You never pull a trigger until it is safe and time to do so. He must have been told this repeatedly.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scepticalist View Post
    Yes, there is an expectation that if given a "cold" gun, it isn't loaded. However, unless the circumstances are very narrow I don't think Alec Baldwin can be blameless (even putting aside he's a co-Producer and is legally responsible too). He's been in countless movies, using guns countless times. You never point a gun until you intend to fire it. You never pull a trigger until it is safe and time to do so. He must have been told this repeatedly.
    In my shooting days it was drummed into me that "a gun is NEVER unloaded, even if you just unloaded it yourself ". In other words, never, ever point it at anyone.
    Totally agree with the rest of your post, there is no way he hasn't been coached/lectured/instructed by armourers many times throughout his career.
    From what I'm reading this shoot, no pun intended, was rushed and done on the cheap. Also perhaps as co producer and senior actor he wielded a little too much power over proceedings and 'underlings'. It all sounds like a perfect storm for something to go badly wrong.

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  26. #76
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    The shooting is tragic and those with experience of handling firearms, know to treat every weapon as if it is loaded. However this was a movie set and I suspect the gun was seen as a prop.

    Those with backgrounds involving firearms generally always handled live weapons. This was a film set where there are likely to have been multiple guns/props and no doubt multiple takes throughout the day, over many days. Given the ‘western’ theme, many of the actors may have carried or worn guns as part of their costume.

    Complacency may have crept in but the armourer is there to ensure that any weapon capable of firing a round of any description, is handled in a safe manner. Problems with unions and some of the production staff walking off set, coupled with a limited budget, may not have helped.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Why would you have a 1800s period correct handgun loaded with live rounds on a film set? I can't think of a reason.
    Because 'merica...because denial....because it'll never happen to you...

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    Because 'merica...because denial....because it'll never happen to you...
    Flippant crap.

  29. #79
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  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    No. Absolutely not.

    Boom!


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  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    That just can't be right, at least if we're including prop guns that aren't real firearms. There are movie scenes where people have guns pressed against their heads, in their backs, even in their mouths.

    I imagine there may not be moving forward.


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  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Would it not be more appropriate to allow the authorities time to conduct an investigation before waffling on about something that needs an element of expert analysis.
    We are all experts here.


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  33. #83
    These words are from Serge, the gaffer on the film, probably the person working closest with Halyna.

    My vision of the RUST tragedy

    I have received hundreds of calls, text messages, letters with words of support and condolences since the day of the tragedy with Halyna Hutchins, and I'm very grateful to everyone. Yes, I knew Halyna, not for a year. I worked with Her on almost all of her films. Sometimes we've shared food and water. We've been burning under the sun, freezing in the snow on the shoots. We took care of each other. Yes, I can say with 100% confidence she was my friend.
    WAS!!!
    I also received many calls from different mass media sources from multiple countries asking to tell what happened; also from numerous institutes and universities for the students to know what needs the most attention.
    Yes, I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Halyna during this fatal shot that took her life and injured the director Joel Souza. I was holding her in my arms while she was dying. Her blood was on my hands.
    I want to tell my opinion on why this has happened. I think I have the right to do it.
    It's the fault of negligence and unprofessionalism.
    The negligence from the person who was supposed to check the weapon on the site did not do this; the person who had to announce that the loaded gun was on the site did not do this;
    the person who should have checked this weapon before bringing it to the set did not do it.
    And the DEATH OF THE HUMAN IS THE RESULT!
    I'm sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one - the department that was responsible for the weapons. There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field.
    Professionals are the people who have spent years on sets, people who know this job from A to Z; These are the people who have the safety on set at the level of reflexes; they do not need to be told to put the sandbag on a tripod, fix the ladder on the stage, or fence off the explosion site. They have it in their blood.
    I'm calling out to the Producers!
    We have a fascinating and amazing job, but it's also dangerous. We film in the mountains, in the open water, underwater. We have explosions, shooting guns, car crashes, electricity after all, and much more.
    To save a dime sometimes, you hire people who are not fully qualified for the complicated and dangerous job, and you risk the lives of the other people who are close and your lives as well.
    I understand that you always fight for the budget, but you cannot allow this to happen. There should always be at least one professional in each department who knows the job. It is an absolute must to avoid such a tragedy, like the tragedy with Halyna.
    I do not wish anyone to go through what I went through, what her husband @Matt Hutchins and her son Andros went through, and the actor Alec Baldwin, who has been handed a gun on set. He has to live with the thought that he took the life of the human because of unprofessional people.
    Dear Producers, by hiring professionals, you are buying peace of mind for yourself and the people around you. It is true that the professionals can cost a little more and sometimes can be a little bit more demanding, but it is worth it. No saved penny is worth the LIFE of the person!
    And finally, dear Producers, please remember that it's not you who are giving the opportunities to the people you hire make their money; it's the people you hire who help You make Your money. Remember this!
    I also want to thank the camera operator @Ried Russell, who was with us and helped save Halyna. Thank you to the set medic @Cherlyn Schaefer who did everything she could to save Halyna's life.
    We all loved Halyna.
    May God Bless her soul.
    Rest in Peace.
    And God protect Us All.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Strikes me, as a former pistol shooter, that pulling the trigger on a weapon without personally verifying it as safe is an absolute failure of responsibility.

    There is of course a chain of what should have/was done for filming safety, but the final call still stops with the actor IMO.

    A very sad situation indeed, hopefully never to be repeated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    If you are a shooter you know the abc of checking a gun before handling it. If you are an actor and not a shooter you will trust the film armourer when he tells you the gun is safe and unless offered specific training will not have a clue of the dos and donts.
    Yeas, inclined to agree that it's more about being competent than it is about chain of custody. An actor isn't going to be qualified to know if a prop gun is safe or not, but I assume an armourer would.

  35. #85
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    Very sad episode.

    I just don’t understand why there was any need to have live ammunition on set at all, then there would be no scope for confusion.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Yeas, inclined to agree that it's more about being competent than it is about chain of custody. An actor isn't going to be qualified to know if a prop gun is safe or not, but I assume an armourer would.
    Actors tend to have people to do everything for them - and that is possibly why they don’t say: “Show me”, whereas I would.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I just don’t understand why there was any need to have live ammunition on set at all, then there would be no scope for confusion.
    I've been wondering the very same.

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Strikes me, as a former pistol shooter, that pulling the trigger on a weapon without personally verifying it as safe is an absolute failure of responsibility.
    I agree, when I was full and small bore hand gun shooting including black powder we would always check that any gun we were to use/handle was safe without fail even if it had been declared safe by a third party, it was 100% the responsibility of the user.

    Devils advocate: If an actor was driving a car on set and the brakes failed and someone was injured would that be the actors fault ?

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    I agree, when I was full and small bore hand gun shooting including black powder we would always check that any gun we were to use/handle was safe without fail even if it had been declared safe by a third party, it was 100% the responsibility of the user.

    Devils advocate: If an actor was driving a car on set and the brakes failed and someone was injured would that be the actors fault ?
    Completely irrelevant .

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Scepticalist View Post
    Yes, there is an expectation that if given a "cold" gun, it isn't loaded. However, unless the circumstances are very narrow I don't think Alec Baldwin can be blameless (even putting aside he's a co-Producer and is legally responsible too). He's been in countless movies, using guns countless times. You never point a gun until you intend to fire it. You never pull a trigger until it is safe and time to do so. He must have been told this repeatedly.
    i disagree, he’s not a ‘gun person’ he’s an actor.
    people who regularly handle firearms have safety drilled into them. my family were registered firearms dealers and i grew up around them from a young age, it was drummed into you from day 1, no messing around, no maybe’s, it’s ok-i think. it was absolute safety.
    it’s why i will never ever go on any stag do shooting things or clay shoots with people who haven’t got the same attitude as me. on game shoots i have seen people sent home for anything outside ‘the rules’. the only time a gun ever got pointed at somebody was if they were having a fitting or had issues with their master eye then the gun would be passed to 2 people to check it was unloaded and they would be allowed to point it at the fitter, there was a level of paranoia that meant an accident was never going to happen.

    the armourer should have absolute control, the buck stops with him, i’m flabbergast that there was live ammo on set!
    The film industy (i sometimes work in this world and have friends who do) is heavily unionised and you are not allowed to touch anything that isn’t your department, a set dresser isn’t allowed to move a light, thats the DOP/rigger/sparks department, but it has to be this way to avoid accidents or assuming somebody else has taken care of it.

    this tragically didn’t happen on set. ironically there is currently strikes in the U.S film industry so wonder if this contributed to events?

  41. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    ironically there is currently strikes in the U.S film industry so wonder if this contributed to events?
    Not true, the IATSE strikes were called off before they began, pending negotiations of new terms.

    Also, the notion that shoots are heavily unionised is misleading, they’re not at all in the UK, and the unions powers in the US are waning. The morning of the shooting, 6 unionised members of the camera crew had left the shoot due to disputes regarding terms and conditions, and they were immediately replaced by non union crew.
    Last edited by junglebert; 25th October 2021 at 21:01.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    Flippant crap.
    Having a bad day?

    Name another country other than America where this sort of sh!t happens?
    Name another country where gun ownership is so ingrained that they allow this to happen?
    Name another country that's more blase about gun accidents?

  43. #93
    Also, the notion that shoots are heavily unionised is misleading, they’re not at all in the UK
    maybe not ‘heavily unionised’ but on a lot of productions the structure is quite rigid union or no union, pay is based on Bectu (though when work is scarce the screws are turned for a 12 for 10 day etc) and the big switch gets flipped for lunch by the gaffer

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Strikes me, as a former pistol shooter, that pulling the trigger on a weapon without personally verifying it as safe is an absolute failure of responsibility.

    There is of course a chain of what should have/was done for filming safety, but the final call still stops with the actor IMO.

    A very sad situation indeed, hopefully never to be repeated.
    How would you verify a gun with blanks was safe?

    If anyone has watched the making of No Time To Die video there are plenty of shots of people firing directly into cameras.

    Something fired from a gun, be it a bit of a blank or a bullet could travel a long way, hitting people who would have believed they were safe from a blank round.

    The police statement about 'live round' was clarified in a report I saw as meaning anything 'with a charge', including blanks.

    I agree there seems no case for actual bullet rounds to be present on a film set, but I've yet to see any report state that.

    I'm sure the full story will out in time, but people seem to be assuming an awful lot here, much of it seemingly unlikely.

    M

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    Last edited by snowman; 26th October 2021 at 00:07.
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  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    How would you verify a gun with blanks was safe?

    If anyone has watched the making of No Time To Die video there are plenty of shots of people firing directly into cameras.

    Something fired from a gun, be it a bit of a blank or a bullet could travel a long way, hitting people who would have believed they were safe.

    I'm sure the full story will out in time, but people seem to be assuming an awful lot here, much of it seemingly unlikely.

    M

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    If it's an 'upward venting' blank firer then it's reasonably safe, unless you happen to be above it. (It could still damage your hearing though!)

    As you say, a 'live' or 'viable' firearm loaded with blanks, or a front venting blank firer, still has a forward facing muzzle blast, which could in theory propel debris or anything in the barrel.
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  46. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    maybe not ‘heavily unionised’ but on a lot of productions the structure is quite rigid union or no union, pay is based on Bectu (though when work is scarce the screws are turned for a 12 for 10 day etc) and the big switch gets flipped for lunch by the gaffer
    I’ve spent the last 30 years working in film and TV in the UK, and if I relied on BECTU to fight my corner I’d be on 5 year out of date rates. They have no power in the UK and the structure you mention doesn’t exist.

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by junglebert View Post
    I’ve spent the last 30 years working in film and TV in the UK, and if I relied on BECTU to fight my corner I’d be on 5 year out of date rates. They have no power in the UK and the structure you mention doesn’t exist.
    well i use the guide and people i know in the industry do even if they get pushed for less by the likes of BBC, thats from people doing low budget TVC up to construction manager for huge productions like Potter/Bond etc.

    Hope you are busy and on top money though, looks like its flat out and name your price

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    well i use the guide and people i know in the industry do even if they get pushed for less by the likes of BBC, thats from people doing low budget TVC up to construction manager for huge productions like Potter/Bond etc.

    Hope you are busy and on top money though, looks like its flat out and name your price
    The BECTU list should really be seen as minimum rates. About 6 years ago, tired of BECTUs continued inaction and total lack of support for freelance crew in my area of the business, and I can only assume other areas, I set up a group which now has over a thousand members, to agree on what we should be charging, and work out how best to try and make sure everyone in our game knows what to charge, and what should be expected of them for that rate. Basically, what the union should be doing. It couldn't have been more successful, rates are up and there's plenty of work around, and if someone is coming in below us, it's easy to show them what they could be charging and that productions will pay it. BECTU now talk to us about what rates should be, but they move so slowly they're always a few steps behind. So, you can probably see now why I'm sceptical of their relevance in the UK in 2021.

  49. #99
    Grand Master TheFlyingBanana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junglebert View Post
    I’ve spent the last 30 years working in film and TV in the UK, and if I relied on BECTU to fight my corner I’d be on 5 year out of date rates. They have no power in the UK and the structure you mention doesn’t exist.
    To be fair, they weren’t much use twenty plus years ago when I worked in the industry- so I guess at least they’ve been consistent…
    So clever my foot fell off.

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingBanana View Post
    To be fair, they weren’t much use twenty plus years ago when I worked in the industry- so I guess at least they’ve been consistent…
    It’s probably around that time they got the nickname ‘the Clapham clowns’ it still fits.

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