Reply With QuoteOne of my friends in the village is having one installed this week. I can ask them how it went and runs once its in and report back.
The Government subsidy announcement looks very attractive but after some quick research seems like a white elephant, it seems that I would need to also change all of my radiators to larger ones and be content with 35degree water temperature, has anyone here taken the plunge yet? I was in the process of getting quotes for a new boiler at around 3k, if the cost is really 10k, with the 5k grant I would only need to add another 2k so not that bad.
One of my friends in the village is having one installed this week. I can ask them how it went and runs once its in and report back.
They do run at a lot lower temp, work better with ufh, cost wise it’s a lot higher to install but gov grant should reduce this.
Not sure about running costs though, be good to hear from someone about that.
I’ve started another thread as our boiler needs replacing.
From my experience of specifying them in new housing developments - expect your electricity bills to increase dramatically.
We have previously specified & installed ground source & subsequently air source heat pumps in order to comply with Building. Regulations.
Went back to gas boilers plus PV panels.a good few years ago, once PV panels were a more cost effective solution.
What are PV panels?Originally Posted by ENES
Both our neighbours have replaced their oil-fired boilers with them, courtesy of a government grant scheme. The houses were built in 2015 and are well insulated. No new radiators needed on their cases. When oil was cheap last summer they told me running costs were higher but not sure if that's the case at the moment - I'm new to oil but the price seems to vary quite a bit over time.
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Photo-voltaic - solar panels.
So clever my foot fell off.
Photo Voltaic aka solar panels
Last edited by Saint-Just; 19th October 2021 at 09:02. Reason: Apex draws faster
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Having installed a new boiler about eighteen months ago, and still having sky-high energy bills - eg £3.5k+ per annum plus before all these prices rises, I am increasingly interested in options. I'm not sure a heat pump would work though - and the thought of having to replace all the radiators makes me shudder.
My main problem though is we have an old, quite large detached house (built 1840). There are three lofts, all insulated, but of varying quality. Walls are solid, not cavity of course. One room is double height, and a bit of a heatsink.
I could really do with getting a proper independent energy and insulation survey done, but finding someone who is genuinely independent and not just trying to flog me something is proving very hard - any suggestions in this respect very welcome. British Gas used to offer these surveys, but don't anymore.
Anyone with similar properties - your input very welcome too!
Last edited by TheFlyingBanana; 19th October 2021 at 09:39.
So clever my foot fell off.
Replacing gas boilers is going to take many, many years. I think the estimate is around 90%+ of homes have them currently. It all feels a bit half-baked at the moment as today will be the first time a lot of people have heard of air source heating and there are considerations such as insulation and radiators too so many homes won’t even meet the desired criterion.
I don't understand why all new builds don't have these installed. Although it would put initial price up surely it would go a fair way toward reducing energy costs and reduse emissions.
From what I've read about it so far you would need a well insulated home to get the same output as other boilers, running at much lower temps could be a real problem in older less well insulated houses, ( some of our walls are 18" solid stone ), you also need to find room for the tank, about the size of a fridge freezer I think, then, as has been mentioned there's the added electric to run one of these systems, if I'm not mistaken you might need a new distribution board if your current one is not up to it.
All these costs add up and the gov grant doesn't go far enough in my opinion to tempt the majority of home owners to go for it, but then again that's not what it's about really, but that's politics and that's not allowed on here!!
If you notice on new estates, all of the social housing properties have them, I'm with you, all properties should have them if they're serious about lowering our carbon emissions.
Like most have said, they suit a modern well insulated home, older property will be too drafty, the pump will be working 24/7 and sucking electricity, I looked into it 18+ months ago and an electrician mate who has experience told me the same.
On the plus side they can be reversed to blow cold air in the summer so its a source of air con..
How does this work, does it cool the water in your radiators and underfloor heating?
I wasn't aware the system has air venting into/out of the property.
Last edited by hughtrimble; 19th October 2021 at 11:01.
Speaking in my capacity as a poor pensioner who can't even afford a Rolex, my perception is that heat pump heating, whilst aesthetically acceptable, is in the same folder as an electric car. Good idea but never will I be able to afford it.
My dilemma now is that I have a functioning but ten year old gas combi boiler. Do I replace with a new one in the hope that it will outlast me, wait to see if heat pump technology becomes more viable (including upgrades to rads, windows, etc), or await some mercurial invention that will revolutionise home heating?
I live in a jerry-built between-the-wars semi on the wrong side of the tracks in north Manchester.
My dad had his installed two years ago to an existing system in a 1950's bungalow. He needed three radiators replacing with more modern spec ones and a new hot water tank and control system. Costs were 11k for all the work but he receives payments of £400.00 a quarter for 10 years from the installation date via the governments RHI scheme so it's a no brainer really. Electricity costs have gone up obviously but it works very well, no issues with it at all.
Watching this thread with interest. We have a 10 year old gas boiler which I’m tempted to replace, just wondering which way to jump.
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I’m currently building a small bungalow from SIP panels and intend using an air source heat pump. This will be an extremely efficient building with triple glazing, MVHR, UFH, etc so suited for this type of heating.
Cost from suppliers to install the pump alone are in the region of £10k (doesn’t include the UFH), although some costs can be claimed back depending when the pump is installed.
If I was still in my old 1860’s house (rather than a static caravan), I would install a gas boiler.
Radiator replacement is not necessarily required.
ASHPs can trickle in lower level heat all day and night, rather than smash high grade heat in from a super-hot cylinder/boiler in order to warm the property quickly.
So they can keep a house warm using existing systems, if controlled in a different manner.
But they are better suited to UFH systems.
Clearly, thermal performance of the house is an issue. If the heat supply is lower and more constant, but the house is poorly insulated and losing heat quite qucikly, it has no opportunity to catch up, or (more likely) certain areas of the house will be left insufficiently heated.
Agreed.
As my post in the 'boiler replacement' thread, it is madness to be installing fossil fuel boilers into new build properties nowadays, but it is much harder to get eco alternatives to work successfully in older, drafty, poorly insulated and listed building stock - which is a LOT of properties!
Shame, as I was very keen to move away from fossil fuels to a more eco alternative, but just could not get it to stack up.
Was a guy on the BBC news this morning showing off his heat pump. Had a big detached property with a huge garden. Paid c £20k for the heat pump and £5k for solar panels to heat the water. Not sure about the viability for people in houses with smaller gardens and lacking the £25k investment.
We had our boiler replaced earlier in the year, and I'm hoping it will last at least 10 years maybe more. TBH I'd wait as long as possible then get a new boiler.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I think all the new heat source heating is predicated on having a house super insulated. Not sure even current building standards are adequate. My mum’s house sounds like yours. Bluntly, I think you will struggle to achieve anything without spending substantial amounts.
A friend is building a house and is maxing out the insulation. He’s planning a solar power and battery system. At night, the battery provides power and, if necessary, will charge at low overnight rates. I think the heating will be storage heaters - certainly not heat pump.
Reality is, it doesn’t stack up. As various of us have said, many properties are incapable of being “improved” to a decent eco standard without spending literally eye-watering amounts of money. The cowboy contractors must be rubbing their hands.
That’s the cost of the kit but what does it do? End of the day, if it costs more to run and doesn’t give the same heat, it’s not in any sense an adequate replacement for a gas boiler.
Well explained Dave, as I said I looked into it for a typical 4 bed semi and the pump would have been at full capacity all the time to try and keep ambient temperature, get a cold winter and it would have been right out of its depth.
Instead I went for a Ideal Logic+ Combi C30 to replace an old gravity fed system that was not efficient, rads get very hot quickly meaning the rooms warm up and the thermostat shuts the boiler off much quicker, comes with a 10 year warranty as long as we get it serviced yearly and at £2250.00 fitted its money well spent..
The house we live in now is reasonably well insulated but our previous one was a nightmare. A farmhouse built in 1897 with single skin walls, and single skin built stable/animal barn attached converted to be part of the house. All you could insulate was the lofts really and have double glazing! We had to have gas central heating and a wood burner to heat it. I doubt trickling in a lower level of heat would make any difference at all. I wonder how many properties would have the same problems.
Last edited by oldoakknives; 19th October 2021 at 15:52.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
For ground source, you do need outside access and potentially a lot of land that you are able to dig up near the surface (I think I read the average is 70m²) or if not just surface land then the ability to drill down a bloody long way (60 to 200m deep!).
It's a not insubstantial process just outside the property. Then you have the likely need for interior alterations too.
Hi Adrian. Given your situation; requiring a new boiler anyway, it probably makes financial sense. You may want to spend extra to upgrade your heat emitters; either larger or extra radiators too as the flow temperature will be far lower using an Air to water system. Be wary of air source claims of working down to -15C, anything much below zero is not terribly efficient. But unless you go Ground source or Water source at much higher cost there is nothing you can do about that.
I am in a similar situation in regards to our boiler and will likely go down the air source route. I have already got three air source heat pumps at home (air to air units), so this will give us supplementary heating as well as the added advantage of comfort cooling in the summer.
As everything goes over to electric we just need Government to improve the grid capabilities and de-carbonise electricity production much further.
I can see us going for solar panels very soon too.
Houses being built this very minute are not compatable for these systems so old housing stock has no chance.
Good luck keeping warm when the ambient outside drops for any period of time.
They are not suitable for hot water they don't get hot enough to kill the bugs.
You won't have a gas bill but pucker up for the elecy bill!
I’ve just spent £2600 on a new Worcester combi boiler to replace the faulty old one in the bungalow when I moved in last November. It’s been re- sited to the loft to free up kitchen space and that pushed the cost up. Its rated at 32kw, serving a 1980s detached bungalow with approx 115 squ metres floor area. With cavity wall insulation, 8” loft insulation and recent double glazing it ticks the boxes for minimising heat loss.
I never considered an alternative to a combi boiler with enough capacity to run a hot bath in 5 minutes (I did the calculations). Radiators are mostly oversized (blame the previous owner), a mistake I’ve repeated in the newly built extension, but I’d rather have too much heating capacity than too little. Overall I’m v. pleased and I’ll take some convincing that a heat pump system could provide the same degree of comfort and performance. I’ll do some more reading on the subject, the principle is interesting and at the moment I don’t fully understand; I’m prepared to be proved wrong even though it’s somewhat academic for me.
Those of us old enough will remember the conversion (1970s) from towns gas to natural gas. Towns gas was mostly a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide produces less carbon dioxide on combustion than natural gas (predominantly methane). On that basis there would be an environmental benefit in reverting to towns gas, but switching to hydrogen (produced by electrolysis of water) would produce the desired ‘zero carbon’ result whilst still enabling conventional heating systems to be used.
Politicians love the dramatic sweeping statements and pie in the sky targets; whilst it may be viable to convert modern properties away from gas heating its unrealistic to apply this to older ones. There’s still the question mark over running costs too, you can’t change the laws of physics (no Boris, be told!) and as I see it a heat pump will take lots if energy to run, I’ll do more reading on this ( Boris may have proved Scotty wrong).
It’s clear that heat pump technology will become mainstream; its not the panacea but like electric vehicles it’ll no longer be exclusively the domain of the tree- hugging sandal- wearing lentil- eating beardys and their ageing hippy wives.
Meanwhile, I’ll turn up the thermostat when the weather turns cold and enjoy my new boiler, sod the cost I can’t stand sitting around wearing woolly jumpers, I’ll enjoy the sense of decadence in my t shirt and shorts!
This thing of replacing boilers just because they're 10+years old..is there anything actually wrong with them, or excessively inefficient? If not, I'm not sure I understand the rationale for doing so. Throwing out perfectly functional gear and replacing with new is a big waste of energy, considering the not inconsiderable energy that has gone into manufacturing, transporting, installing etc. both the old and the new. I'd be really interested to know if you're able to calculate the net energy difference between the two approaches?
Heat Pump technology will improve over the years. The moment it's clear (on a more global basis) that the market for gas boilers is dead, you'll see a lot more investment, innovation, and improvements in alternative options. Even the use of HP's elsewhere has improved, e.g. the HP tumble dryer I've bought is a lot better than I'd have been able to buy some years ago, and a lot cheaper too.
That said... there's going to be one heck of a rush in 2034 to have replacement gas boilers installed. Whether it's needed or not, I expect a lot of people will replace them proactively at that point, take the 10+ year warranty, and tide them over for some years to come.
Has anyone thought of or installed a ceiling fitted AC unit that also has heat ...i.e. AC in summer Heating in winter ?...type you see in shops and restaurants ?
we have open plan layout downstairs with big glass area / bi-folds and siding doors gets very hot in summer and can be a challenge heating in winter but upstairs fine.
would a HVAC unit do both tasks ? are they expensive to run ?
https://www.aircondirect.co.uk/p/103...with-heat-pump
My son is building a new development ,no gas on site A S heat pumps in every building.
Our gas boiler isn't broken, it has a cast iron heat exchanger so should last for ages, I started looking because everyone was saying my boiler was old and inefficient, in fact going to an A rated boiler would save £200 per year in energy costs, on first impressions it seems I should stand back and watch for a bit and see how the new boilers develop.
We have air con in the bedrooms and dining room (separate inverter systems) whey work very well, Samsung ceiling cassette in the bedrooms and LG Art-cool in the dining room
I'd have thought insulation and draft proofing would be your first priority. Invest in a thermal-imaging camera and see where you're losing most heat.
I’m listening about it on the radio on the way to a break up north
Bottom line appears you’re looking at about £12500 all in by the time you’ve changed all you need to change
£5k is frankly nowhere enough said the installer guy on JV show radio 2 and he was credible
Also as said prev your home needs to be draft tight etc to work well
Oh well… patch the boiler up again for another year or so I guess
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5k is a very generous contribution. Home owners have just as much of an obligation to stop climate change than governments.
There was a bloke from friends of the earth moaning it’s not enough. Because that’s going to motivate everyone to get one. How about; what a great gesture, now you go and do your bit??? I appreciate CC is not something that’s easily over come but you do have to celebrate the small steps to get to the desired outcome
I wonder which minister's mates or Tory donors have just set up an ASHP installation company? I also wonder where all these heat pumps are going to come from; I bet there isn't large scale manufacturing capacity sitting around idle.
The reality is that this is just more hot air (pun not intended), and Boris needed something positive to say about the UK's carbon reduction initiatives at COP26.
Last edited by hogthrob; 19th October 2021 at 16:06.
Boris at COP, probably:
Much applause, much laughter, much hair ruffling, much distraction.As Daedalus once said to Icarus "We need to uptick our efficiency and download our carbon offloading. Time to level up your boiler, boyo."
This is my concern, on paper it should save me cash Vs LPG. However it depends on space for increased boiler size, rads etc. Then getting it work efficiently in an old house.
In anything other than a very well insulated property you will not feel the benefit, either temp wise or pocket wise.
As far as I know you treat them a bit like ufh, set the stat and leave them be, they just, in theory, idle away keeping your palace nice and warm.
If your palace isn’t well insulated then I guess you can look forward to some hefty electric bills.
If they were that good, and the government were serious then all new builds would have them.
On LBC at the moment they are talking about these things, unfortunately both so called experts have vested interests so talking rubbish, the thing that had me shouting at the radio was, heat pumps don’t run cooler, we are all running our boilers much to hot.
We probably are running our boilers too hot, in a super insulated property you could afford to turn them down a bit, but unfortunately we don’t all live in one of these magical houses, imagine how boring that would be if there were no character properties left, just super insulated modern housing.
I’ll happily insulate our stone built house and then install a heat pump if the government want to dish out grants to cover the costs, but seeing as they’re only playing at it that’s not going to happen.
A condensing gas boiler will run most efficiently below the dew point, ~55°C.
£12k might be just the price of a watch to some but for many (maybe most) it's simply unaffordable. As usual (solar panels, EVs) the early adopters will be those who can most easily afford it and will mop up the just 90,0000 grants in this case.
Our 10 year old Bosch combi has got a corroded heat exchanger which will only get worse and will write it off when it fails and 3 independent heating engineers I know who have no vested interests in selling me a new one all say the life span of modern boilers is 12-14 years so that’s were your 10 plus years come from
When I buy a house I intend to stay in, I'll buy one
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My gas safe guy calls once a year to service my 20 year old boiler, he tells me to keep it as long as serviceable.
Others over the past ten years have replaced theirs & some twice, not looking so cheap to run if that is the case?
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