closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 101 to 150 of 152

Thread: Has anyone here bought an air source heat pump yet.

  1. #101
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    And of course, with the green mortgages that have been spoken about it falls onto the home owners to do the work anyway, or risk not being able to sell their homes, back door politics maybe.
    Don't get me wrong I'm all for more insulation as it often leads to lower energy bills, but when you live in a property with solid stone walls it's not that easy, or cheap, to insulate to an acceptable level that's going to make a difference, and that's not including the solid floors that would all have to be dug up and relaid.

  2. #102
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    14,751
    Millions of homeowners won't ever be able to even consider spending £12500 on their home, it's complete pie-in-the-sky. £5k is a generous contribution for those who can afford the £7500 however I believe you have to shell-out the full whack first and be reimbursed over ten years? Hardly attractive or doable for the vast majority of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    5k is a very generous contribution. Home owners have just as much of an obligation to stop climate change than governments.

    There was a bloke from friends of the earth moaning itís not enough. Because thatís going to motivate everyone to get one. How about; what a great gesture, now you go and do your bit??? I appreciate CC is not something thatís easily over come but you do have to celebrate the small steps to get to the desired outcome

  3. #103
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    20,250
    Iím coming around to the need to change, but the whole world needs to move in the same direction and I donít see an easy way to do that. China and the USA spring to mind; unless the large CO2 - producing countries cut their emissions our efforts will have little significance. OK, we can wear it like a badge of honour but that doesnít achieve much.

    The government statements of intent are politically motivated, more of a wish list, but at least it has stimulated interest and got more people thinking about alternatives. Most of my generation will remember living in houses with no central heating and no insulation, they were cold in winter and it was customary to heat one room and wear warmer clothing, Iím not joking. Central heating was an expensive luxury but during the 70s it became more affordable and eventually its become the norm, taken for granted by the majority. Itís counter- intuitive to be told weíre doing it all wrong and those fantastically efficient combi boilers are helping to wreck the planet, weíre now being made to feel guilty for keeping warm. Gas was heavily promoted in the past and its strangely ironic to now learn that in the long term we backed the wrong horse.

    Solar panels on roofs, heat pumps, hydrogen to replace natural gas, electric heating, better insulation, all need to be part of a coherent strategy that will gain 80+% of the benefits without undue financial pain on a reasonable timeframe. Take the politics out of the equation, get all parties to sign on to a sensible plan, get away from publicity stunts and soundbites.........are you listening Boris?

  4. #104
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,782
    When people talk about the government funding these green schemes, I hope they realise it will actually be the tax payer who is funding it.

    As for heat pumps incentives, great, but they should only be available to those who have proper insulation and double glazing, because without that they might as well just set fire to the money. Also I would rather people be incentivised to have Solar panels installed. We have 100ís of miles of free space available which is not being utilised effectively.

    Plus why not have small vertical axis wind generators on the sides of motorways - a constant stream of wind being generated - by vehicles. Or start planting trees on every suitable bit of green space, not used for food production.

    Finally regarding power stations. Has anyone considered using small nuclear power stations, similar to those used on submarines and ships. They could be build off shore and submerged. Each one could generate about 150Mw, which according to British Gas would power 12,000 medium sized companies. Now imagine about 50 of these located off shore and augmented by solar and wind. Sorted.

    Alas itís pointless until the world address the 60000lbs gorilla in the room - an ever increasing population. Who are expecting and demanding more every year. Whether itís new cars, new houses, more holidays aboard, new heating systems, solar panels, etc, etc.

    You would that think by now that society would have worked out that we have finite resources trying to fuel a infinite population. Until this is addressed then we really are in a race to the bottom.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  5. #105
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lincolnshire
    Posts
    4,831
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    When people talk about the government funding these green schemes, I hope they realise it will actually be the tax payer who is funding it.

    As for heat pumps incentives, great, but they should only be available to those who have proper insulation and double glazing, because without that they might as well just set fire to the money.

    Finally regarding power stations. Has anyone considered using small nuclear power stations, similar to those used on submarines and ships. They could be build off shore and submerged. Each one could generate about 150Mw, which according to British Gas would power 12,000 medium sized companies. Now imagine about 50 of these located off shore and augmented by solar and wind. Sorted.
    Agree re the house needing to be of a minimum standard with regard to insulation etc to qualify for any Heatpump grant.

    As for the modular nuclear reactor idea, it got going in 2019, but I guess for obvious reasons is a little delayed and will be a few years before it starts to deliver.

    https://www.ukri.org/news/uk-governm...lear-reactors/

  6. #106
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    3,576
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    As for heat pumps incentives, great, but they should only be available to those who have proper insulation and double glazing, because without that they might as well just set fire to the money.
    Think that’s right. And insulation in an old house means, as far as I am aware, putting up stud work on all external walls and packing with insulation then plasterboard and skim. That then means redecorating, moving radiators and electric sockets, new skirting boards, new window sills and surrounds, etc., etc..

    So the cost of the air pump pales into insignificance - insulation at least £1,000 a room, I’d have thought.
    Last edited by David_D; 22nd October 2021 at 22:07.

  7. #107
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    South West, UK
    Posts
    1,691
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    Think that’s right. And insulation in an old house means, as far as I am aware, putting up stud work on all external walls and packing with insulation then plasterboard and skim. That then means redecorating, moving radiators and electric sockets, new skirting boards, new window sills and surrounds, etc., etc..

    So the cost of the air pump pales into insignificance - insulation at least £1,000 a room, I‚Äôd have thought.
    Decorating a room would nearly be that, then thereís stud work, insulation , new carpets, electrician costs etc. Iíd imagine the answer might be external insulated cladding. But that has issues including causing damp.

  8. #108
    Master unclealec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    5,123
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Iím coming around to the need to change, but the whole world needs to move in the same direction and I donít see an easy way to do that. China and the USA spring to mind; unless the large CO2 - producing countries cut their emissions our efforts will have little significance. OK, we can wear it like a badge of honour but that doesnít achieve much.

    The government statements of intent are politically motivated, more of a wish list, but at least it has stimulated interest and got more people thinking about alternatives. Most of my generation will remember living in houses with no central heating and no insulation, they were cold in winter and it was customary to heat one room and wear warmer clothing, Iím not joking. Central heating was an expensive luxury but during the 70s it became more affordable and eventually its become the norm, taken for granted by the majority. Itís counter- intuitive to be told weíre doing it all wrong and those fantastically efficient combi boilers are helping to wreck the planet, weíre now being made to feel guilty for keeping warm. Gas was heavily promoted in the past and its strangely ironic to now learn that in the long term we backed the wrong horse.

    Solar panels on roofs, heat pumps, hydrogen to replace natural gas, electric heating, better insulation, all need to be part of a coherent strategy that will gain 80+% of the benefits without undue financial pain on a reasonable timeframe. Take the politics out of the equation, get all parties to sign on to a sensible plan, get away from publicity stunts and soundbites.........are you listening Boris?
    An eminently sensible and pragmatic summation.

    Who are you, and what have you done with Paul?

  9. #109
    I do accuracy tests on electricity meters as a part of my role.

    I have done a few on very new houses with heat source pumps as the primary means of heating who have received big electric bills.

    The meter has always been accurate-as soon as you fire up the heating the cause of the bill becomes clear.

  10. #110
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    3,576
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Decorating a room would nearly be that, then thereís stud work, insulation , new carpets, electrician costs etc. Iíd imagine the answer might be external insulated cladding. But that has issues including causing damp.
    Was trying to think of the absolute minimum work. As you say, reality is your might even need to get new carpets. Older houses often also have decorative plaster cornices etc which you canít economically replicate when one wall moves in 3 inches.

    External cladding would make any house look very odd but more so an older stone built house. Would probably reduce the value of the house too.

  11. #111
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    18,488
    Don't think I'll be bothering until they force me to. So many similar tales going around.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...thered-PM.html
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Don't think I'll be bothering until they force me to. So many similar tales going around.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...thered-PM.html
    He hits the nail on the head, our in the sky scheme from a Politician who wonít be around (hopefully in 2022) never mind 2050.

    Solar panels scheme and I also remember governments telling us diesel was the way to go not too long ago.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #113
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    Was trying to think of the absolute minimum work. As you say, reality is your might even need to get new carpets. Older houses often also have decorative plaster cornices etc which you canít economically replicate when one wall moves in 3 inches.

    External cladding would make any house look very odd but more so an older stone built house. Would probably reduce the value of the house too.
    You just couldn't do it without huge financial implications, external insulation would be ok on rendered finishes but not on traditional stone, ( unless you then rendered it ), on our stone part of the house ( which is rendered ), we have no soffits, basically the gutters screw straight onto the top of the wall, so you would also have to extend the eaves of the roof to accommodate the extra thickness of the insulation etc then all floors would have to come up to a suitable depth to be able to put enough insulation down before screening over, and you might as well install UFH at the same time as low temp heating systems work better with UFH.
    Also, if anyone has ever done any work on very old properties they would know that a lot were built without foundations, so once you start digging out concrete floors to any depth you would have to underpin the walls to meet building regs.
    You might as well move before doing all this, oh, I forgot, you won't be able to soon if they bring in green mortgages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #114
    10 Years down the line weíll probably find this external cladding will degrade, cause damp or theyíll be another, unforeseen, issue which will need to be rectified at huge expense.

  15. #115
    probably better off putting the money towards renewables and making the electricity cheaper to generate, appreciate you are always going to need nuclear and carbon based to make up for swings in demand but there is so much housing stock that simply canít be upgraded to current building regs.
    My partners flat which is just gone on the market is part of a Georgian town house in a conservation area, solid walls and sash windows, what are you supposed to do with that?
    we are possibly moving to a 1950ís modernist block of flats which does have cavity walls (uninsulated) but critall windows which you are not allowed to change, even if allowed we would have to pay for scaffolding 7 stories high, would love to have slimline aluminium but what is that going to cost? 20k including scaffolding?
    and if you were allowed to bolt on a heat pump the estate management probably wouldnít allow it (Dulwich estates an area of SE london where the college owns the freehold of a large area) and again 7 stories of scaffolding to take a look at it if there are any problems.

    i bet half the U.K housing stock can only be improved to a point that still isnít insulated enough to make a heat pump viable. are we really going to knock all those georgian/victorian buildings down and rebuild passive house compliant properties?

  16. #116
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    18,488
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    probably better off putting the money towards renewables and making the electricity cheaper to generate, appreciate you are always going to need nuclear and carbon based to make up for swings in demand but there is so much housing stock that simply canít be upgraded to current building regs.
    My partners flat which is just gone on the market is part of a Georgian town house in a conservation area, solid walls and sash windows, what are you supposed to do with that?
    we are possibly moving to a 1950ís modernist block of flats which does have cavity walls (uninsulated) but critall windows which you are not allowed to change, even if allowed we would have to pay for scaffolding 7 stories high, would love to have slimline aluminium but what is that going to cost? 20k including scaffolding?
    and if you were allowed to bolt on a heat pump the estate management probably wouldnít allow it (Dulwich estates an area of SE london where the college owns the freehold of a large area) and again 7 stories of scaffolding to take a look at it if there are any problems.

    i bet half the U.K housing stock can only be improved to a point that still isnít insulated enough to make a heat pump viable. are we really going to knock all those georgian/victorian buildings down and rebuild passive house compliant properties?
    Exactly the point. It's all a con and not at all practical. All to chase an impossible target dreamed up by the climate doom merchants.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  17. #117
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    3,576
    From the Sunday Times today:

    ĒAs well as offering £5,000 grants to install a heat pump, mortgage lenders will now have to disclose the energy efficiency of homes they lend on and set themselves targets to improve the insulation of their portfolio stock. In perhaps the most astonishing intervention to date by a government to force through a green agenda, lenders will be required to oblige homeowners to get properties up to at least a C rating on an energy performance certificate (EPC) ó required when a home is built, sold or rented ó with the prospect of mandatory targets if standards are not improved. At present only 40 per cent of houses have a C rating or higher.Ē

    So you wonít be able to sell or let your house.

  18. #118
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Essex, UK
    Posts
    14,197
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    From the Sunday Times today:

    ĒAs well as offering £5,000 grants to install a heat pump, mortgage lenders will now have to disclose the energy efficiency of homes they lend on and set themselves targets to improve the insulation of their portfolio stock. In perhaps the most astonishing intervention to date by a government to force through a green agenda, lenders will be required to oblige homeowners to get properties up to at least a C rating on an energy performance certificate (EPC) ó required when a home is built, sold or rented ó with the prospect of mandatory targets if standards are not improved. At present only 40 per cent of houses have a C rating or higher.Ē

    So you wonít be able to sell or let your house.
    I don't believe for a minute they have any intention of implementing this, but how would it work with listed properties?

  19. #119
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    From the Sunday Times today:

    ĒAs well as offering £5,000 grants to install a heat pump, mortgage lenders will now have to disclose the energy efficiency of homes they lend on and set themselves targets to improve the insulation of their portfolio stock. In perhaps the most astonishing intervention to date by a government to force through a green agenda, lenders will be required to oblige homeowners to get properties up to at least a C rating on an energy performance certificate (EPC) ó required when a home is built, sold or rented ó with the prospect of mandatory targets if standards are not improved. At present only 40 per cent of houses have a C rating or higher.Ē

    So you wonít be able to sell or let your house.
    As has been said already, this is just another cladding scandal, you would have thought they'd have learnt by now, stop the big gestures that look good on paper and make you seem like you're doing the right thing, actually look at the real world and do something that really will make a difference.
    They want everyone to sign up to heat pumps, that are a waste of time unless you have perfect insulation, then they are saying you can't get a mortgage unless you have enough insulation, where the hell are they going with this????

  20. #120
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    3,576
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    I don't believe for a minute they have any intention of implementing this, but how would it work with listed properties?
    No idea! But thereís already something in law for rented property:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic...dlord-guidance

  21. #121
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North and South.
    Posts
    25,610
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Exactly the point. It's all a con and not at all practical. All to chase an impossible target dreamed up by the climate doom merchants.
    "climate doom merchants"?
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  22. #122
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    South West, UK
    Posts
    1,691
    Surely the elephant in the room is the requirement for a perfectly insulated home. If this was the case youíd be using significantly less gas anyway.

    Itís like comparing apples and bananas. When you compare like for like they really donít seem beneficial

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    Surely the elephant in the room is the requirement for a perfectly insulated home. If this was the case youíd be using significantly less gas anyway.

    Itís like comparing apples and bananas. When you compare like for like they really donít seem beneficial
    A bit scary, but does that make insulate Britain right?

  24. #124
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    A bit scary, but does that make insulate Britain right?
    Basically yes.
    Unfortunately theyíve had to resort to the road blocking tactics as the government arenít listening.

  25. #125
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North and South.
    Posts
    25,610
    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdfish View Post
    Basically yes.
    Unfortunately theyíve had to resort to the road blocking tactics as the government arenít listening.
    There's no smoke without fire no pun intended..
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  26. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdfish View Post
    As has been said already, this is just another cladding scandal, you would have thought they'd have learnt by now, stop the big gestures that look good on paper and make you seem like you're doing the right thing, actually look at the real world and do something that really will make a difference.
    They want everyone to sign up to heat pumps, that are a waste of time unless you have perfect insulation, then they are saying you can't get a mortgage unless you have enough insulation, where the hell are they going with this????
    its all a load of crap with no real world solution.
    iíll be renting my current flat out soon, i have updated it energy wise as much as i can, new unvented HW cylinder, modern computer controlled storage heaters that donít leak heat when you donít want it, triple glazing and 270mm loft insulation. it might just scrape a C if iím lucky, tile hung dormer roofing with just 3in of polystyrene between the studwork means its never going to be up to modern home standards without rebuilding it.
    if i install a heatpump then the middle of the flat needs to be ripped apart to fit radiators. never going to happen.

    iím all for modern technology, efficient home heating and construction but this all seems to be headlines with little real world thinking behind it.

  27. #127
    Grand Master jwg663's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    21.5 km From Moscow
    Posts
    15,074
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    From the Sunday Times today:

    ĒAs well as offering £5,000 grants to install a heat pump, mortgage lenders will now have to disclose the energy efficiency of homes they lend on and set themselves targets to improve the insulation of their portfolio stock. In perhaps the most astonishing intervention to date by a government to force through a green agenda, lenders will be required to oblige homeowners to get properties up to at least a C rating on an energy performance certificate (EPC) ó required when a home is built, sold or rented ó with the prospect of mandatory targets if standards are not improved. At present only 40 per cent of houses have a C rating or higher.Ē

    So you wonít be able to sell or let your house.
    They already do something very similar in Ireland, called the BER (Building Energy Rating Certficate).

    https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/ber-certs
    ______

    ​Jim.

  28. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    They already do something very similar in Ireland, called the BER (Building Energy Rating Certficate).

    https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/ber-certs
    I can see why they stuck with BER rather than BERC!

  29. #129
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North and South.
    Posts
    25,610
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post

    iím all for modern technology, efficient home heating and construction but this all seems to be headlines with little real world thinking behind it.
    ^^^^ This, all bar one of the houses we own are pre 1900 construction, insulating them to 21st century standards will be impractical if not impossible. Think the government will need to come up with yet another initiative..
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  30. #130
    Grand Master jwg663's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    21.5 km From Moscow
    Posts
    15,074
    Quote Originally Posted by hughtrimble View Post
    I can see why they stuck with BER rather than BERC!
    I forgot to mention that the UK already has the EPC system.

    https://www.gov.uk/buy-sell-your-hom...e-certificates
    ______

    ​Jim.

  31. #131
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ashford, Kent
    Posts
    24,417
    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    ^^^^ This, all bar one of the houses we own are pre 1900 construction, insulating them to 21st century standards will be impractical if not impossible. Think the government will need to come up with yet another initiative..
    A U-Turn, then, possibly?
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  32. #132
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North and South.
    Posts
    25,610
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    A U-Turn, then, possibly?
    Have they done anything like that before?
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    its all a load of crap with no real world solution.
    iíll be renting my current flat out soon, i have updated it energy wise as much as i can, new unvented HW cylinder, modern computer controlled storage heaters that donít leak heat when you donít want it, triple glazing and 270mm loft insulation. it might just scrape a C if iím lucky, tile hung dormer roofing with just 3in of polystyrene between the studwork means its never going to be up to modern home standards without rebuilding it.
    if i install a heatpump then the middle of the flat needs to be ripped apart to fit radiators. never going to happen.

    iím all for modern technology, efficient home heating and construction but this all seems to be headlines with little real world thinking behind it.
    All storage heaters will leak heat.

  34. #134
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    South West, UK
    Posts
    1,691
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    A bit scary, but does that make insulate Britain right?
    Well if they are, theyíre doing a great job at winning hearts and minds.

    My other issue is they claim thereís imminent doom (some say 3 years). But , insulation, solar panels, heat pumps etc will take years before the carbon used to make them (coal power plants in China) is made up.

  35. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    All storage heaters will leak heat.
    except im no longer waking up to 25į in the morning in the vain hope of having 22į in the evening by turning a dial which is a guestimate for an input that will give me a warm flat in the evening.
    the modern computer controlled Quantum heaters i have now will be warm to touch but they are heavily insulated and release heat with a low speed fan, they learn how much heat to input overnight by sensing ambient temp and how much heat is still stored and can be programmed for being at home or out all day and even going away and only charging up the night before you return.

    your comment is like saying ďall cars drink petrolĒ. some can do 65mpg, some do 10 they are not equal.

  36. #136

    Has anyone here bought an air source heat pump yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    except im no longer waking up to 25į in the morning in the vain hope of having 22į in the evening by turning a dial which is a guestimate for an input that will give me a warm flat in the evening.
    the modern computer controlled Quantum heaters i have now will be warm to touch but they are heavily insulated and release heat with a low speed fan, they learn how much heat to input overnight by sensing ambient temp and how much heat is still stored and can be programmed for being at home or out all day and even going away and only charging up the night before you return.

    your comment is like saying ďall cars drink petrolĒ. some can do 65mpg, some do 10 they are not equal.
    Your comment is like saying your (petrol) car doesnít drink petrol and sound like a salesmen for the things.

  37. #137
    My house was converted from a bungalow. The roof was removed and a new floor added and an extension built on the kitchen. It is now a C rated for energy efficiency but it certainly isn't efficient.

    The kitchen/diner room is 10m x 4.5m and is heated through electrical underfloor heating which costs me a fortune.

    The rest of the house is gas central heating which is (was) cost effective as I have a new boiler and a hive system with individual thermostats on each radiator (this saved me ~£80-100pm in bills). At this time of year heating isn't required other than the odd chilly day.

    The problem is in summer. Even though we have a well insulated loft with all the trimmings, the loft space heats up to crazy levels and the upstairs of the house ends up ~10C hotter than downstairs. There is nothing we can do to dissipate the heat. Opening all the windows upstairs to air it out works for a short time, but as soon as you close the windows the heat comes back even after the sun has dropped.

    To solve this and make upstairs livable we've installed air conditioning. Any day the sun is out the air conditioning goes on. I'd rather not have to do this, but working and sleeping is not possible when it's 40C at your desk or bed.

  38. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Your comment is like saying your (petrol) car doesnít drink petrol and sound like a salesmen for the things.
    no salesman just extremely pleased with a product that totally changed my perception of E7 storage heaters and did what i wanted (heat when i needed not boiling hot in the morning/cold in the evening)

    old ones were literally a bent piece of wire pushing a flap open and a rheostat, no control and leaked heat all day.

    boilers can benefit from advanced electronic control hive/tado etc, another way of saving energy by not heating when you donít need it.

  39. #139
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    no salesman just extremely pleased with a product that totally changed my perception of E7 storage heaters and did what i wanted (heat when i needed not boiling hot in the morning/cold in the evening)

    old ones were literally a bent piece of wire pushing a flap open and a rheostat, no control and leaked heat all day.

    boilers can benefit from advanced electronic control hive/tado etc, another way of saving energy by not heating when you donít need it.
    They look so different to the old ones that you could hardy lift, and as you say, basically a flap that you opened if you wanted more heat out, but usually by that time the heat was all gone.
    I also remember that you had to put timers on everything to come on after 11 o'clock as that was when the cheap economy seven electric came into force, the day rate was always higher than a normal rate as well, you also got a tank of hot water overnight on the cheap tariff as well, but again, if you wanted any hot water in the evening you had to hit the 1 hour boost button and watch the meter wheel nearly take off, lol. Not sure how it works nowadays though.

  40. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdfish View Post
    They look so different to the old ones that you could hardy lift, and as you say, basically a flap that you opened if you wanted more heat out, but usually by that time the heat was all gone.
    I also remember that you had to put timers on everything to come on after 11 o'clock as that was when the cheap economy seven electric came into force, the day rate was always higher than a normal rate as well, you also got a tank of hot water overnight on the cheap tariff as well, but again, if you wanted any hot water in the evening you had to hit the 1 hour boost button and watch the meter wheel nearly take off, lol. Not sure how it works nowadays though.

    you have 2 consumer units and the low rate is controlled by radio signal. you still canít lift them as the principle is the same with the bricks and heater elements but they are heavily insulated and no flap, presume itís s small valve linked to a fan.
    new properly lagged direct fill HW cylinder has 2 immersions and i flip the wall switch if i want it to heat it during the day (if my partner is staying and she wants to waste hot water like itís going out of fashion) but itís so well insulated thereís no need as heating overnight i get hand/face/dish washing and a bath in the evening if want to but i use the electric shower 99% of the time.

  41. #141
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Fife
    Posts
    218
    We are in a rural location with no mains gas available. Mostly v thick stone built single storey with decent double glazing; no wall insulation and decent loft insulation.

    The previous owners had replaced the back boiler heating system with an electric boiler which was eye wateringly expensive to run (£4K + pa) and not great at keeping place warm.

    We just fitted an ASHP with new larger rads throughout. No grant but signed up to government RHI scheme which pays quarterly and should cover cost of finance for system (£17k)

    Too early to say how it copes with winter and what running costs will be, but so far we are delighted.

    The larger rads a vast improvement on old ones which ran on micro ore pipes. Not roasting to touch but do job nicely. Big improvement on hot water pressure from mahoosive tank.

    Heating is not on 24/7, but in am and evening; hot water on separate timer. Wouldnít know it was there noisewise.

    Time will tell what actual running costs are, but impossible to be more expensive than what it replaced.

    Would we have done it had mains gas been an option? Possibly not, but so far at least we have a warmer more efficient system that seems to work for our older non perfectly insulated property.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  42. #142
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    In them there mountainous Hills of Surrey
    Posts
    341
    I attended a most informative seminar on the upcoming changes to Building Regulations yesterday. There is going to be a step change in requirements , particularly for new build dwellings, next year, but I also took the follow from the session:

    1 The current obsession with ASHP is media driven. Retro-fitting them to existing buildings is at best hit or miss and requires considerable design work and a full appraisal of the building fabric to give good odds of getting a successful installation given the low grade heat they produce - getting it right is possible in some buildings but certainly not all.

    2 ASHP are one option, but other technologies are out there.

    3 New connections to the gas network will be banned, I think from 2025

    4 The most likely way forward for existing building stock (for the next few decades at least) is to convert the existing gas supply network to a natural gas/hydrogen mix. Most modern gas boilers can use this mix without needing extensive work and the high grade heat produced will better suit existing ‘leaky’ buildings. The only remaining challenge is generating low-carbon hydrogen at scale.

    5 All options are going to be more costly than we are accustomed to.

    6 Oil fired heating is already considered obsolete.

    All of the above came from one of the lead authors of the new regs.
    Last edited by Mr Nuttington; 6th November 2021 at 09:40.

  43. #143
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nuttington View Post
    I attended a most informative seminar on the upcoming changes to Building Regulations yesterday. There is going to be a step change in requirements , particularly for new build dwellings, next year, but I also took the follow from the session:

    1 The current obsession with ASHP is media driven. Retro-fitting them to existing buildings is at best hit or miss and requires considerable design work and a full appraisal of the building fabric to give good odds of getting a successful installation given the low grade heat they produce - getting it right is possible in some buildings but certainly not all.

    2 ASHP are one option, but other technologies are out there.

    3 New connections to the gas network will be banned, I think from 2025

    4 The most likely way forward for existing building stock (for the next few decades at least) is to convert the existing gas supply network to a natural gas/hydrogen mix. Most modern gas boilers can use this mix without needing extensive work and the high grade heat produced will better suit existing Ďleakyí buildings. The only remaining challenge is generating low-carbon hydrogen at scale.

    5 All options are going to be more costly than we are accustomed to.

    6 Oil fired heating is already considered obsolete.

    All of the above came from one of the lead authors of the new regs.
    If the government were serious about climate change etc then all new builds would have to meet very stringent regs, ( a lot don't ), also be powered by one of the new generation forms of heating, be it air or ground source, solar panels would also be fitted to every new build house as well, ( not just social housing ), which I can never understand.
    The amount of building that's taking place on flood plains and general fields that allowed the rainwater to be soaked up is an absolute joke, and leads to a lot of localised flooding that never happened before, then this gets blamed on climate change, then you have all the flood defences that get put in place, this merely acts as a funnel that simply moves it further down stream and makes it worse for those poor sods that live there, would you believe, this also gets blamed on climate change.
    There's a lot more that can be done to avoid a lot of the above before we go chasing pipe dreams, but then that's not good media, is it.

  44. #144
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    In them there mountainous Hills of Surrey
    Posts
    341
    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdfish View Post
    If the government were serious about climate change etc then all new builds would have to meet very stringent regs, ( a lot don't ), also be powered by one of the new generation forms of heating, be it air or ground source, solar panels would also be fitted to every new build house as well, ( not just social housing ), which I can never understand.
    The amount of building that's taking place on flood plains and general fields that allowed the rainwater to be soaked up is an absolute joke, and leads to a lot of localised flooding that never happened before, then this gets blamed on climate change, then you have all the flood defences that get put in place, this merely acts as a funnel that simply moves it further down stream and makes it worse for those poor sods that live there, would you believe, this also gets blamed on climate change.
    There's a lot more that can be done to avoid a lot of the above before we go chasing pipe dreams, but then that's not good media, is it.
    Correct, and the Government now appears totally serious about it. Much of what you say about new builds (for instance insulation at near passive house standards, halving air leakage, big changes in ventilation requirements etc) is coming with the step change in regs I mentioned that comes into force middle of 2022, set to reduce dwelling carbon emissions by 70% from the 2013 standard. Since the thread was more about retrofitting ASHP I didnít previously go into detail on that.

    The new build construction industry, particularly the volume house bashers, have a shock coming...

    PVs have got a bad name with mortgage lenders, mostly because of the historic FIT tariff contracts and issues around ownership (people effectively long-term leasing their roof to PV companies rather than buying the systems themselves). It also causes problems in the commercial property world with tenanted buildings. Of course these issues do not affect social landlords hence why they are far more likely to adopt the technology.

    Surface water management and flood mitigation is a whole other discussion, but thatís more one of town planning and population growth rather than building standards - donít get me started on that.

  45. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Fifer View Post
    We are in a rural location with no mains gas available. Mostly v thick stone built single storey with decent double glazing; no wall insulation and decent loft insulation.

    The previous owners had replaced the back boiler heating system with an electric boiler which was eye wateringly expensive to run (£4K + pa) and not great at keeping place warm.

    We just fitted an ASHP with new larger rads throughout. No grant but signed up to government RHI scheme which pays quarterly and should cover cost of finance for system (£17k)

    Too early to say how it copes with winter and what running costs will be, but so far we are delighted.

    The larger rads a vast improvement on old ones which ran on micro ore pipes. Not roasting to touch but do job nicely. Big improvement on hot water pressure from mahoosive tank.

    Heating is not on 24/7, but in am and evening; hot water on separate timer. Wouldnít know it was there noisewise.

    Time will tell what actual running costs are, but impossible to be more expensive than what it replaced.

    Would we have done it had mains gas been an option? Possibly not, but so far at least we have a warmer more efficient system that seems to work for our older non perfectly insulated property.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    We're in a similar position, but switching from oil to an air source heat pump. Big old house, solid walls, mostly double-glazed, plenty of roof insulation, some underfloor insulation, could do better with reducing drafts. I hope our experience will be as positive as yours.

    We've burned our way through about 9-10 tonnes of oil in the last three years, and although our consumption has been progressively decreasing as the kids leave home (and I turn off the rads in their bedrooms, etc) we've decided to do something about our oil consumption.

    It'll cost us about £15-17k to make the change but some of this will come back to us either via the renewable heat incentive or the voucher scheme which is replacing it. Either way, it equates to less than £50/month interest if added to a mortgage for example. (It's just a different way of looking at the cost, a bit like buying a car on lease/contract etc I suppose)

    In terms of revenue costs I imagine some of what we save on oil (£150-200/month) will go on a higher electricity bill. Hopefully it'll be a bit less, but to be honest, I'm more interested in reducing our oil consumption than the cost.

    We've made a few other changes too - electric car, bit less red meat etc, but that's another story :)

    Best wishes,
    Martyn.

  46. #146
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nuttington View Post
    Correct, and the Government now appears totally serious about it. Much of what you say about new builds (for instance insulation at near passive house standards, halving air leakage, big changes in ventilation requirements etc) is coming with the step change in regs I mentioned that comes into force middle of 2022, set to reduce dwelling carbon emissions by 70% from the 2013 standard. Since the thread was more about retrofitting ASHP I didnít previously go into detail on that.

    The new build construction industry, particularly the volume house bashers, have a shock coming...

    PVs have got a bad name with mortgage lenders, mostly because of the historic FIT tariff contracts and issues around ownership (people effectively long-term leasing their roof to PV companies rather than buying the systems themselves). It also causes problems in the commercial property world with tenanted buildings. Of course these issues do not affect social landlords hence why they are far more likely to adopt the technology.

    Surface water management and flood mitigation is a whole other discussion, but thatís more one of town planning and population growth rather than building standards - donít get me started on that.
    Please feel free to start another thread on this, I'd be happy to learn about why they just allow what they do, and then blame the environment.
    As you may have noticed on my other thread, I am in need of a new boiler, we don't have mains gas here, so currently on oil, don't really see another option other than another oil boiler, don't mention air or ground source as we live in a solid stone cottage, so no real insulation to speak of, apart from in the new extension which has under floor heating.

  47. #147
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Was talking to a neighbour earlier, he had been out on a pheasant shoot the other day and one of the guys he was with had a ground source heat pump installed free of charge for some reason, ( I think he knew the owner of the company or something like that ), he has since had it removed it and installed a standard system as he couldn't get his home warm enough.
    My neighbour is actually building a new house for himself locally and was talking about heat pumps as a source of heating etc but He's now having second thoughts due to cost and efficiency.
    And yes, we are dining on pheasant tonight.

  48. #148
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    In them there mountainous Hills of Surrey
    Posts
    341
    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdfish View Post
    Please feel free to start another thread on this, I'd be happy to learn about why they just allow what they do, and then blame the environment.
    As you may have noticed on my other thread, I am in need of a new boiler, we don't have mains gas here, so currently on oil, don't really see another option other than another oil boiler, don't mention air or ground source as we live in a solid stone cottage, so no real insulation to speak of, apart from in the new extension which has under floor heating.
    I feel for you. There really is no good answer to whatís best given your circumstance, and therein resides the big problem; itís all very well making new builds perform to very high levels but they are a tiny percentage of the countryís housing stock.

    Personally I would probably go least capital cost in the short term, brace for escalating running costs and perhaps turn the thermostat down, get the Readybrek out and wear warmer attire; insulate the people rather than building. The latter would be a tough sell to my Mrs mind...
    I donít believe there is a golden bullet solution, and that is a major challenge for the nation.

    Regarding the building on flood plains etc, letís just say that planning policy and decisions are made by politicians, not technical experts. As always with politicians their agendas and motives do make you wonder at times.

  49. #149
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    24,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Agree re the house needing to be of a minimum standard with regard to insulation etc to qualify for any Heatpump grant.

    As for the modular nuclear reactor idea, it got going in 2019, but I guess for obvious reasons is a little delayed and will be a few years before it starts to deliver.

    https://www.ukri.org/news/uk-governm...lear-reactors/

    Good stuff. You have brightened my mood slightly. Thx

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  50. #150
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Nuttington View Post
    I feel for you. There really is no good answer to whatís best given your circumstance, and therein resides the big problem; itís all very well making new builds perform to very high levels but they are a tiny percentage of the countryís housing stock.

    Personally I would probably go least capital cost in the short term, brace for escalating running costs and perhaps turn the thermostat down, get the Readybrek out and wear warmer attire; insulate the people rather than building. The latter would be a tough sell to my Mrs mind...
    I donít believe there is a golden bullet solution, and that is a major challenge for the nation.

    Regarding the building on flood plains etc, letís just say that planning policy and decisions are made by politicians, not technical experts. As always with politicians their agendas and motives do make you wonder at times.
    The fact that having to get a new oil boiler doesn't bother me, it's the fact that the alternatives are either way too expensive, or simply don't work in the real world, if this wasn't the case then I'd certainly consider them.
    The wet ufh in the extension that houses the kitchen and dining area works very well and keeps it nice and warm all day long with just one heating cycle early in the morning, the older part of the house has 18"-24" thick stone walls so takes some heating, but a mixture of modern column rads, electric under floor matting and a log burner gives us a choice, and there's only the 2 of us so we don't have to bother about day time heating too much in the older part, although I often fire the log burner up and just let it sit there on low throughout the day.

    I still think you should start that thread regarding the above, I'm sure there are quite a few that have thoughts on it!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information