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Thread: Red Arrows crash SMITHS 6B/542

  1. #1
    Grand Master sundial's Avatar
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    Red Arrows crash SMITHS 6B/542

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255169582...kAAOSwlS5hYGrU

    ... discussion is in progress on MWR ... If genuine likely MOD property?
    "After a certain age you got the face you deserve I think" ... Henri Cartier-Bresson

  2. #2
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Pretty poor taste if it is the actual watch.
    4 guys lost their lives in the crash.

  3. #3
    Master KavKav's Avatar
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    Absolutely appalling, tasteless and disgraceful eBay listing in these circumstances.

  4. #4
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavKav View Post
    Absolutely appalling, tasteless and disgraceful eBay listing in these circumstances.
    Totally agree
    Quote Originally Posted by KavKav View Post
    What a joy it is to remember that we were enthusiastically told that we should ĎCelebrate Diversityí!

  5. #5
    Master
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    I have reported the sale to Ebay. Enough said.

  6. #6
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tixntox View Post
    I have reported the sale to Ebay. Enough said.
    Well done. It's awful how some people can make money from the dead. That's IF there is any truth behind the sellers story.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sundial View Post
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255169582...kAAOSwlS5hYGrU

    ... discussion is in progress on MWR ... If genuine likely MOD property?
    Who owns all issued watches then? Does MOD let servicemen keep them on leaving?

  8. #8
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Who owns all issued watches then? Does MOD let servicemen keep them on leaving?
    The MOD and in a word no, unless Norman the storeman forgets to ask for it back.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MADDOG View Post
    The MOD and in a word no, unless Norman the storeman forgets to ask for it back.
    Your knowledge may be much better than mine, but is this correct? There are Royal Navy clearance divers watches available to buy on the open market.

  10. #10
    Grand Master
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    A quick check tells me that the four crew who were killed were between 26 and 31 years old. The oldest, Flight Lieutenant Euan Perreaux, was commissioned at Cranwell on the 15th Dec 1959:

    https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../1012/data.pdf

    About two thirds of the way down the list.

    That makes him a few years too late for what would have been a very rare watch even when it was available. Presumably, there will be stores records held at Kew. However, from past experience, the 'keys' to it are almost certainly actually held at Northolt and they are, quite rightly, careful gatekeepers for anything remotely sensitive.

  11. #11
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spesh View Post
    Your knowledge may be much better than mine, but is this correct? There are Royal Navy clearance divers watches available to buy on the open market.
    Kit is still owned my the MOD unless disposed of via approved channels. (Written off being one of them) An item like this will have been written off as lost, so technically itís not longer on the MOD books.

    The MOD used to mark most Kit that had disposed of with 2 broad arrows stamped with the points touching to form a cross, They stopped doing it many many years ago.

    There have been a few posts on the validity / legality regarding ownership of any modern issued watch currently on the market. They are still MOD owned even though they are making their way out of stores.
    Older watches are more likely to have been through a disposal agent as they would not longer be fit for purpose (eg lume on tritium watches).

  12. #12
    Journeyman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Kit is still owned my the MOD unless disposed of via approved channels. (Written off being one of them) An item like this will have been written off as lost, so technically itís not longer on the MOD books.

    The MOD used to mark most Kit that had disposed of with 2 broad arrows stamped with the points touching to form a cross, They stopped doing it many many years ago.

    There have been a few posts on the validity / legality regarding ownership of any modern issued watch currently on the market. They are still MOD owned even though they are making their way out of stores.
    Older watches are more likely to have been through a disposal agent as they would not longer be fit for purpose (eg lume on tritium watches).
    Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

  13. #13
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    I hope this listing is withdrawn.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Spesh View Post
    Your knowledge may be much better than mine, but is this correct? There are Royal Navy clearance divers watches available to buy on the open market.
    Yes, why I asked, issued watches shouldnít be a thing unless the MOD has sold them.

  15. #15
    Grand Master TheFlyingBanana's Avatar
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    Complete lack of morality aside, no one is going to pay 15k for that.
    So clever my foot fell off.

  16. #16
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Ignoring the morality for a moment, this seems like prime scam territory.

    M
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  17. #17
    If this is true it's shocking

  18. #18
    Interesting backtrack on the eBay listing. Still asking £15k though and having displayed a complete lack of sensitivity and moral compass, who would actually buy from them now?

  19. #19
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Ignoring the morality for a moment, this seems like prime scam territory.

    M
    It's a real watch and they are rare as. Movement parts are not a problem, beyond that, I could cope with a dial that battered, but I suspect I'm in a minority. I'm not sure if the hands are used elsewhere, but I know a man who would. Northolt would have the provenance up to its loss but might well have an opinion about a watch that still belongs to The Crown and has such a dodgy story at least partially attached - so getting to the first half of the truth is theoretically possible, but it's still a very rare and desirable watch. Probably not that desirable and right now, real or not, I wouldn't and I suspect I'm not alone.
    Last edited by M4tt; 16th November 2021 at 14:12.

  20. #20
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Hands for the deluxe are very similar to the hands for the W10 but the lengths are slightly different. As far as I know thereís absolutely no chance of getting originals, so the solution would be W10 hands. Quite a few complete watches already have W10 hands so itís not an unusual solution. The bigger problem with the watch is the case. Itís pretty damaged and Iím not sure if it would be possible to straighten out the bent lugs. Itís definitely an interesting proposition at the right price, and Iíve even tentatively contacted the seller, but the whole story and surrounding BS is a complete turn off. Itís a narrow market and heís alienated the majority of his potential buyers. Doesnít help that he thinks itís a 12-15k watch when done (no doubt based on Finest Hour pricing), whereas the last sales are consistently in the 4-6k range.

  21. #21
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    I wouldn't give him a salted peanut for his watch after that disgraceful, contorted web of lies that he used to try and inflate the price....and I am a SmithS collector. His snivelling attempt at an apology on his revised listing together with no price change simply makes his sales pitch laughable and deplorable at the same time.

    In reality, it's £1- 1.5k watch due to all the work needed. I sincerely hope he paid an inflated price for it initially, and never manages to sell it.

  22. #22
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Thereís no doubt in anyoneís mind that heís a complete and utter (insert expletive), but Iíve been searching for a Deluxe parts watch for years and I tried to take the pragmatic view. I could quickly forgot the ridiculous story and subsequent BS but Iíd still be concerned about legal ownership, and even worse the slim possibility that his original story was true. Itís all moot anyway as heís adamant itís worth a fortune.

  23. #23
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    It's a real watch and they are rare as. Movement parts are not a problem, beyond that, I could cope with a dial that battered, but I suspect I'm in a minority. I'm not sure if the hands are used elsewhere, but I know a man who would. Northolt would have the provenance up to its loss but might well have an opinion about a watch that still belongs to The Crown and has such a dodgy story at least partially attached - so getting to the first half of the truth is theoretically possible, but it's still a very rare and desirable watch. Probably not that desirable and right now, real or not, I wouldn't and I suspect I'm not alone.
    That's fair enough - The whole 'Red Arrows crash' story was what I meant and seemingly I was right...

    I don't have a particular interest in military watches, so didn't realise it was so valuable in its own right, but it seemed he was trying to inflate the value with the Red Arrows connection to me.

    M
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    Thereís no doubt in anyoneís mind that heís a complete and utter (insert expletive), but Iíve been searching for a Deluxe parts watch for years and I tried to take the pragmatic view. I could quickly forgot the ridiculous story and subsequent BS but Iíd still be concerned about legal ownership, and even worse the slim possibility that his original story was true. Itís all moot anyway as heís adamant itís worth a fortune.
    An MWR member bought the other, genuine 'barn find' one recently on eBay, I think for around £3.5k. That one was in much better condition with a much better dial and had an M marked movement that is considered by most to be correct. I think the seller needs to be directed to that recent sale and pitch his price relative to that. Maybe he will have a reality check and sell it then.

    Good luck with your search.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I wouldn't give him a salted peanut for his watch after that disgraceful, contorted web of lies that he used to try and inflate the price....and I am a SmithS collector. His snivelling attempt at an apology on his revised listing together with no price change simply makes his sales pitch laughable and deplorable at the same time.

    In reality, it's £1- 1.5k watch due to all the work needed. I sincerely hope he paid an inflated price for it initially, and never manages to sell it.
    I suspect it's probably a bit more, but not much. Beyond that, I completely agree. Greedy immoral sod.

  26. #26
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    An MWR member bought the other, genuine 'barn find' one recently on eBay, I think for around £3.5k. That one was in much better condition with a much better dial and had an M marked movement that is considered by most to be correct. I think the seller needs to be directed to that recent sale and pitch his price relative to that. Maybe he will have a reality check and sell it then.

    Good luck with your search.
    Yeah Crispinís eBay buy is a very good reference point for pricing his, and I already sent him a link to that auction. But even after that he still reckoned his was a five figure watch when finished. He did say if it doesnít attract offers then heíll switch to auction, so if that happens and he starts low then weíll see what the market says. My estimation on true value would be around £2-2.4k, then minus whatever discount the market decides for the BS surrounding the sale.


    I think his movement looks good as the shock protection is the correct (uncommon) type.

  27. #27
    Grand Master AlphaOmega's Avatar
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    'We were unable to connect the watch to the disaster'?

    What a telling phrase.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    I suspect it's probably a bit more, but not much. Beyond that, I completely agree. Greedy immoral sod.
    Yes, £1.5k is probably a little low, but then again is that dial ever going to be particularly attractive? I am always impressed with the dials on the GS DL's, a testament to the quality and design of the case I suppose that they appear to be pretty well preserved.

    It has been suggested before and I think we should persuade Eddie to make an exact case copy and find an available movement with the same dimension spec as the 27CS, stem height etc. The we could transplant our own movements in and have a genuine homage with the correct movement. Just a thought, wouldn't that be a treat!!

  29. #29
    Grand Master sundial's Avatar
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    Revised listing has 3 bidders as at 15.37hrs, 21 November ... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265413089...p2471758.m4703
    "After a certain age you got the face you deserve I think" ... Henri Cartier-Bresson

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    Yes, £1.5k is probably a little low, but then again is that dial ever going to be particularly attractive? I am always impressed with the dials on the GS DL's, a testament to the quality and design of the case I suppose that they appear to be pretty well preserved.

    It has been suggested before and I think we should persuade Eddie to make an exact case copy and find an available movement with the same dimension spec as the 27CS, stem height etc. The we could transplant our own movements in and have a genuine homage with the correct movement. Just a thought, wouldn't that be a treat!!
    It would quite easy and a lot cheaper to just buy an old 27CS.

    Not a bad idea. I suspect there's a minimum order for cases (100?) but it's still doable

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    It would quite easy and a lot cheaper to just buy an old 27CS.

    Not a bad idea. I suspect there's a minimum order for cases (100?) but it's still doable
    I can't imagine any watch business selling a watch without a movement inside it Ollie. I reckon it would be fairly safe to be able to shift 100+ GS DL 'homages'. Whether a movement could be found that would be interchangeable with a 27CS is rather less likely.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I can't imagine any watch business selling a watch without a movement inside it Ollie. I reckon it would be fairly safe to be able to shift 100+ GS DL 'homages'. Whether a movement could be found that would be interchangeable with a 27CS is rather less likely.
    Ah, I meant selling the watch with a 27CS in it. Basically recasing old Smiths movements in new GS De Luxe cases and dials. Sourcing the movements might take time but could be doable

    The cases are three parters though: main, back and screw-in tension ring. So the main part is threaded twice.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Ah, I meant selling the watch with a 27CS in it. Basically recasing old Smiths movements in new GS De Luxe cases and dials. Sourcing the movements might take time but could be doable

    The cases are three parters though: main, back and screw-in tension ring. So the main part is threaded twice.
    I would imagine Eddie would consider recycling old 27CS's as a Loome'ing disaster....(see what I did there ).

    The threaded tension ring wouldn't be essential for a 'homage', imo.

    I suppose as long as the new movement in the watch was the same size or larger than the 27CS a new movement ring could be fabricated to take the 27CS and if enough folk were interested a group buy could make it feasible. It feels like a tremendous long shot though, at first thought.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I would imagine Eddie would consider recycling old 27CS's as a Loome'ing disaster....(see what I did there ).
    Yes, very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    The threaded tension ring wouldn't be essential for a 'homage', imo.
    No, I think you're right. As long as the dial sat "right" in the case. The crystal would have to be acrylic though.

    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I suppose as long as the new movement in the watch was the same size or larger than the 27CS a new movement ring could be fabricated to take the 27CS and if enough folk were interested a group buy could make it feasible. It feels like a tremendous long shot though, at first thought.
    I'd want it made in Europe. Fricker or Ickler, maybe? We'd need a couple of "proof" cases for the manufacturer to copy, also dials (although radium or tritium? FA or TA?). Personally I'd go for shoulderless springbars as they look identical to the (fixed) originals, would probably be cheaper to produce and could be swapped out for normal ones. No need for the dustcap but then some retaining ring or spacer might be needed. Caseback markings -- yes, but what? Nothing that could be construed as, or confused with, the issued ones. Maybe numbered though.

    Movement could be anything that would fit and/or 27CS. If the former (a new movement, e.g. Sellita) then hands will be tricky: they need to fit the cannon pinion and that varies from movement to movement. So I think that's a non-starter.

    I wonder what the cost of, say, 50 watches sans movements would be? Could sell them like that, as an empty "project" for the buyer to source their own 27CS or with one already fitted. If the latter it would need to be cleaned, oiled and adjusted. No warranties, strictly sold as seen -- caveat emptor.

    Just thinking aloud. It's not impossible but is there the demand to make it worthwhile?

    Edit: there's also the legal issue that Eddie owns the name on wristwatches.
    Last edited by Rev-O; 24th November 2021 at 16:05.

  35. #35
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    I'd want it made in Europe. Fricker or Ickler, maybe?
    I know this is (so far) just wishful thinking but I thought that Fricker had closed down or was closing down.

    However, the Fricker website is up and running! https://w-fricker.de/englisch/

  36. #36
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    I thought Fricker had retired too, perhaps he found a buyer for the business.

    Re the fantasy GS, good point about the hands Ollie. The W10 hands fit and are more often seen in the wild or when Eddie makes the watch he could have a spare set of hands made that fit the 27CS....along with the separate movement ring...lol.

  37. #37
    Grand Master
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    That's not a big problem, most competent watch makers can broach hands.

  38. #38
    FWIW the cal 60466E (i.e. the same as the W10) also fits the GS case.

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