Reply With QuoteAm I right in thinking that one can remove the ethanol in E10 by adding water and then separating the 2 phases?
That should ensure longer tank life, and maybe an octane booster for a classic?
I’m in a bit of a pickle… I’ve had recent space open up in the garage, I’ve got cash on the hip and I have spousal consent/lack of interest (actually, that’s a bit strong - Rev Mrs DB is fully supportive of my intentions here).
So, to fill the hole in my garage and my soul, I’m thinking… MGB GT, maybe a TR4.
Is that a good idea? I mean, the time of year ain’t bad - summers end, just when the prices should start to drop, but there’s an issue. Two actually.
Firstly, the impending halting of petrol sales in a few years time. I’m guessing that, at some point, an affordable manner of electric conversion should become more commonplace, at which point the car becomes usable and saleable once more.
Secondly, and more pertinent to the current time, E10. That may kill the value of older petrol-driven cars quite effectively in reasonably short order.
I know that e5 will be available in the short term, but it’s the more expensive route and unlikely to be a long term fix.
Again, as time goes by, the parts required to e10-proof a B-series should be available, so that may not be a problem.
I’d welcome views from the collective about the primary question - is buying an old petrol-driven car at this point in history pure folly? Is there something, anything I’ve missed? Are my thoughts around possible resolution the stuff on fantasy? Or am I worrying about stuff which is irrelevant?
Am I right in thinking that one can remove the ethanol in E10 by adding water and then separating the 2 phases?
That should ensure longer tank life, and maybe an octane booster for a classic?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Petrol will still be readily available until at least 2050; no new ICE cars to be sold after 2030 means it’ll be at least twenty years until there aren’t many being used as daily transport.
E10 solutions for classics will probably become available as quickly as unleaded conversions did so probably no need to worry there either.
There are already companies converting classic cars to EVs and that is likely to become cheaper and more widespread as time passes, but see my first point above.
All things considered, I’d say you have nothing to worry about so go for it.
If you've got the green light then I would be tempted to press ahead. The classic market is a bit toppy at the moment but then again life is short. A TR4 is likely to remain a car in demand (provided it's possible to continue to run such cars).
Originally Posted by dickbrowne
Petrol isn't going to disappear in the next thirty or even forty or more years. It may become more specialist to obtain over the next couple of decades, but there are so many liquid fuel driven vehicles, including classics, that they will need to be supplied for a long time to come.
So I really wouldn't worry about that.
Are you really sure you want a classic of this type though? I love classic cars, but having been in and driven a fair few, I'm never really tempted to buy one. Make sure you really are on board with the entire driving and owning experience, because it can't be overstated just how different it is to a modern car. Until a couple of years ago a relative had a fully restored E-type - it looked beautiful but was still pretty horrible to drive.
Personally, I like a lot of modern classics - interesting stuff from the 90's and early 2000's - still often very rare, tons of nostalgia appeal and you can take them to car shows now, but properly drivable.
Depending on your budget you could have a lot of nice choice. Maybe even a TVR for example - best of all worlds.
Last edited by TheFlyingBanana; 28th September 2021 at 13:29.
So clever my foot fell off.
I've often considered getting a nice old vintage car, but the thought occurs to me that the sweet spot right now may be to buy cars that are not vintage yet, are in great condition, have plenty of mod cons, and will be rare in a few years' time. So maybe an interesting BMW 6 series from the early 2000s, an Alfa GTV (although they seem to be already climbing in value again), a Smart Roadster Brabus...etc. etc.
Interesting thoughts - keep em coming!
It’s specifically a 1960’s (possibly early 70’s) car that I’m looking for - I’ve had them in the last and owned numerous vintage motorbikes, so I know what I’m getting into. It won’t be my daily driver, I’ve got a modern car for those duties, it’s a high days and holidays kinda thing.
Personally I would not be worried about E10.
You would have been using super unleaded in something of that vintage anyway, even when both were E5. The higher octane in super would be more appropriate for older engines, therefore cost should not be an issue. If it is, then perhaps a young timer classic might be more appropriate?
As for electric conversions, please no!! Ripping the guts out of an old car and replacing with wires and batteries is a sacrilege. Those who do it deserve to burn in a lithium fuelled hell for all eternity.
E10 in Premium fuels isn't an issue right now, but the guarantee is only for five years (the maximum permissible). After that point? Who knows?
As for the electric conversion, I would agree with you, albeit in a much more mild-mannered way, up to a point. The preference is obviously to keep it ICE as long as I can, but I do see a time in a (hopefully) distant future where the logistics of finding petrol makes the usage of a classic less enjoyable - that will be the point where I have to make the decision to either sell the car or to convert. Selling a classic which cannot be driven is likely to be a costly affair and at that point, the conversion looks far more likely.
If it's a choice between voltage or stasis, I'd rather have a sparky MG than a static museum piece.
Go for it.
My Spitfire is going to be for sale again btw ( not quite a TR4 though!)
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as an e-type owner just a few thoughts
do not under estimate how the market has moved on with the development and fixing the known weaknesses of a model
you're never going to do crazy miles so petrol in one for or another will always be available so as long as you're not going to be doing 5k+ a year, who cares
e10, a little like unleaded, the worst thing it's going to do is cause the work that the action to prevent it having any effect will be (if that makes sense) ie it may eat through some rubber hoses and as soon as you see the first one split, you'll replace them all anyway
the dark cloud for you is post covid there have been lots of guys who have thought one day who have realised post covid they may not have too many more days left and have been hoovering them up
I honestly think that the time to consider converting to electric or fearing to run out of fuel for your classic is far enough in the future to dispense you from taking this into consideration and enjoy the car you would like for many years as you expect to enjoy it without worrying about this aspect.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I think these two posts pretty much sum up where I am in the thought process - there may be some remedial work, but I'm a bit of a spanner monkey, so mechanical work doesn't phase me and I agree totally that the effort required to rectify is about the same as the effort required to mitigate
After the past two years, this is exactly where I am - having suffered perfect health all of my life, a couple of scares does give clarity of thought :)
I'm pretty much set on buying a car, and already was before starting the thread, but I know there are a lot of classic owners on here and it's good to sanity-check that there's nothing obvious I'm missing
Last edited by dickbrowne; 28th September 2021 at 16:07.
There will still be a lot of cars on the road using super unleaded in 5 years' time. You can take the view that this may be the point that E5 is abandoned, but my own view of this is that is unlikely. All three of my motorbikes (1984, 1995 and 2002) will not tolerate E10, but I have no sleepless nights about the demise of petrol and the requirements to convert to electric, so much so that I recently added the 1984 bike to my collection at the cost of approximately 1/2 a TR4 or pretty much a whole MG BGT.
I also speak as someone who has owned a 1969 TR6, 1972 MG BGT, 1973 MG BGT V8 and countless young timers such as e24 and e30 BMWs, multiple Mk2 Golf GTIs. I'd have any of them again in an instant and still not have any concerns about fueling them.
I'll suggest an Alvis TA14 drophead. A fiend of mine has just about finished renovating his Dad's old car and it is quite elegant with the top down.
Yes, there are some amazing TVRs. Quite like the Tuscan.
They're already going up in price. I have always thought cars from 2000 - 2006 or so are ideal. Many are rust free, well made but not overly complex in that they have manual boxes and NA engines.
It is an interesting period for some really nice cars, like the previous poster I'm keen on the big Bahn Stormers of this era, BMW 5-6-7 Series full of refinements, some great engines and not taxed to the max, okay not the prettiest of cars but very capable motors.
I particularly like the 4.4 V8s especially the 545i, the 30d oil burners are great everyday cars and I keep looking at the 730d, big old bus but what a car to just enjoy..
I agree with the modern classic idea - I went down this route though perhaps a little more “modern” with a BMW 1M - rare and likely to appreciate if cared for. I reckon this will be my last fun car and is hopefully a safe place to stash some cash for a few years.
A word of caution here good sir ,if the little lady has given the green light for a new toy ,then be prepared for an unopposed sizeable influx of shoes handbags and the like .
How does E!0 work in daily life with a classic car? We see a lot of cars in the workshop but apart from rough running after a long storage and sometimes tinkering with the dizzy is all we need to do to overcome problems. New, E100-safe fuel hoses (together with new water hoses and brake hoses) is never a bad idea. I wouldn't be too worried. Then, there's LPG. A set of hardened valves is needed for some cars, but that's not too difficult.
When you consider a change to electric: make sure you get a classic with enough space under the bonnet!!! E.g. Dagenham's Fords have enough space
My TR3A is up for sale - after 20 yrs I want something else. I've already sold my Porsche 914 and when the TR is sold, the money will be burning in my pocket. But the idea is to get one (or two...) less expensive classics. In fact, I'm considering going back to a Saab 96 again (that would become my forth in 40 yrs...) or something along the lines of a Volvo 142. In fact, I'm going to see a 142 tomorrow and a Saab 96 next week. Both the Volvo and the Saab run perfectly on LPG as well.
There's a Saab 96 in the workshop as we speak. Waiting for a coat of epoxy primer. It's perhaps a little too bold to say that I can identify any part of those 96's blindfolded, but it's close... It would be the easiest way to go the Saab-route again, but perhaps it's time for something else. (Or in the words of my wife: "Why not both?")
Last edited by thieuster; 28th September 2021 at 20:16.
Forgot to mention... those 2000 - 2006 cars are very rewarding, but it's the first era with all sorts of electronics behind the dash. Injection, Lambda-measuring device, first ABS. The DIY part of owning a classic is completely out of the window. It's simply faultfinding (as if... remember Adigra's Porsche epos) and then replacing the culprit part. And that can be very costly!!! Guess why I sold my 914 with the Bosch D-tronic.
The period before that, like the 1985 - 2000 era is a lot more interesting. The last cars with carbs.
Theoretically possible but not a practical proposition!
I’ll stick my neck out, based on a combination of technical knowledge and optimism in equal proportions: I think the majority of classic owners will gave no problems.
As the owner of a 1970 MGB I have an interest, but I’m not convinced by all the doom and gloom. Potential for corrosion in the tank only becomes an issue if the water forms a separate phase, in a one- phase system I don’t see how corrosion will be a problem. Ethanol isn't the most volatile component in E10 petrol so I can’t see how it will preferentially be lost to evaporation in storage, I would predict that the ethanol concentration will marginally increase on storage thus enhancing the solubility of the associated water. Possibly the fuel may be mire hydroscopic than traditional petrol but provided the tank is sealed that shouldn’t be a problem.
I could be wrong, but I’m not worried. I can think of lots more good reasons for not owning a classic car, you need to be the right type of owner.
If we were rank late 80s - 90s desirable cars in order of their reliability or ability to be fixed easily, which marques would be at the top?
First ABS? My last classic was from 1977 and had ABS :)
My 90s fast Pug had rain-sensing wipers.
I haven't had it on anything since.
In terms of classics, then BMW all the way.
The engineering was first class on everything they touched for 15-20 years.
^Shame they didn't make the Z8 in RHD.
I would say Porsche - as that period includes 964 and 993 generation 911s, pretty well peak 911 all with Mezger engines and fantastic overall engineering.
Plus the 928 and the 944 for the front engine fans.
- - - Updated - - -
I would say Porsche - as that period includes 964 and 993 generation 911s, pretty well peak 911 all with Mezger engines and fantastic overall engineering.
Plus the 928 and the 944 for the front engine fans.
I have been doing a lot of work on my 1987 E30 M3 and I can say they are put together well, a family member who works in a body shop came round and had a look, he said he hadn't seen a car that well made for years which was nice to hear..
If you have the cash and the home accountant’s permission go for it. Do not worry about E10 fuel my TR6 uses Super Unleaded which is going to be around for a fair few years.. The Classic car movement is very exciting at the moment and prices are on the up with people spending surplus cash creating a hobby.
And what car (brand, model) was it?
I’ve had a 65 mustang for around 4 years, best advice is find a mechanic you can trust, old cars are easy to work on, but also easy to mess up. Remember you’ll also be dealing with years of “that’ll do” so when things go wrong it can be an effort to trace.
E10 I wouldn’t worry about, as a couple have said demand will provide a solution/additive.
I watched someone using some kind of ear trumpet to set carbs up on some Italian exotic machinery the other day.
Amazing. I play the piano in a rather amateur way and have reasonable pitch. Not sure I could do that though. What a skilled technician.
Off to have a look at this one today. 1969, Swedish import, only 135k kms.
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Mercedes Benz 450SEL 6.9
Amazing car but out me off classics for life, the running costs were astronomical.
I used to do that all the time back in the day when I had my carb and tuning firm. It's not difficult but takes a bit of practice rather like music really.
It is simply to balance the throttles on multi carb set ups by listening to each in turn at the venturis (usually on variable jets) and getting the throttle levels balanced to coincide with mixture adjustment.
Cheers,
Neil.
Exactly what I thought: a jewel, an exotic and a landmark. But not a benchmark for the introduction of ABS on cars for the 'common'.
That sounds very satisfying.
And possibly lucrative.
I'm not particularly handy with cars - I'm not sure why as I started buying car magainzes before I was a teenager. I've spent hours reading about how it all works but less time messing about actually doing it. Many holidays were accompanied by the writing of LJK Setright as well as others such as Rowan Atkinson, Derek Bell, Alain DC, Harry M etc.
Lolz. I was thinking similar, however for me it would have to be a 420 or 500 W124 SEC. or at the pinch a CL CL140 (but not the V12)
A lot of car for the money.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
As long as whatever you buy is completely restored - or you know what you're doing. MGBs are very easy to modify, I had two modified GTs and they were a hoot to drive.
"A man of little significance"
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