The right to work from home

[Jdh1]

Isn’t that irrelevant if the work is being done and they are more productive at home?

My partner started a new job in an advertising agency in January, she went to the office for the first time in August for an induction to the new building (swanky new one that’s smaller than the old one) and hasn’t been back since.
This is in a creative director role, it seems it’s just IT staff and some of the youngsters in flat shares that bother to go in, unvaccinated on Monday’s/Tuesdays and vaccinated Wednesday to Friday.

All the seniors live out in the sticks and aren’t rushing back either.

I think the point was that they didn't think they were more productive at home. That's why they wanted them back in.

[julian2002]

I've been WFH for the past 10 years, if I had to change jobs a WFH component would be front and center in the negotiations.

[Jdh1]

That’s got nothing to do with it IMO, if companies could outsource overseas they could do so regardless of COVID or more flexible working and would have done so already or may do in the past but for reasons of cost saving which is separate.

I think it may be relevant. Until now, companies were very reluctant to have people working from home. Hence they have been cautious about employing outside geographic boundaries. Covid has forced their hand and many now see wfh as a viable way to do business moving forward. As a number have said on this thread, productivity and profitability are up. So when they are next recruiting, isn't it logical for them to take the view that if they're not coming into a workplace, employees may just as well be in a low wage location? If you're communicating and managing via zoom, what does it matter where people are? What does matter is how much they're costing.

To see it any other way, you have to make the arguement that British employees are somehow superior. Are they?

[dougair]

I think it may be relevant. Until now, companies were very reluctant to have people working from home. Hence they have been cautious about employing outside geographic boundaries. Covid has forced their hand and many now see wfh as a viable way to do business moving forward. As a number have said on this thread, productivity and profitability are up. So when they are next recruiting, isn't it logical for them to take the view that if they're not coming into a workplace, employees may just as well be in a low wage location? If you're communicating and managing via zoom, what does it matter where people are? What does matter is how much they're costing.

To see it any other way, you have to make the arguement that British employees are somehow superior. Are they?

So why haven’t those companies moved already? I’m not sure out sourcing means wfh. Also in some industries there may be legal or regulatory issues which mean work can’t be done in another jurisdiction.

I just can’t see a mass exodus of roles because wfh means cheaper labour overseas. Maybe I’ll be wrong but I don’t have have to worry. And as for my kids…I’d be happy to encourage them to leave this sorry place behind if things haven’t changed in the next 20 years.

Now AI, that’s something that really will reshape the landscape.

[snowman]

I think it may be relevant. Until now, companies were very reluctant to have people working from home. Hence they have been cautious about employing outside geographic boundaries. Covid has forced their hand and many now see wfh as a viable way to do business moving forward. As a number have said on this thread, productivity and profitability are up. So when they are next recruiting, isn't it logical for them to take the view that if they're not coming into a workplace, employees may just as well be in a low wage location? If you're communicating and managing via zoom, what does it matter where people are? What does matter is how much they're costing.

To see it any other way, you have to make the arguement that British employees are somehow superior. Are they?

Some are, some aren't.

There's a big difference between having a team working the same daylight hours as you a couple of hours away from a central location where you can meet for team get-togethers now and then and having people working a significantly different day on the other side of the world.

Language is also an issue - Do you enjoy dealing with customer services teams who can barely understand English? That's what low wages buys you in most cases. Quality staff overseas are not as cheap as people believe.

I can recall having a call with one of our team in India (not outsourced, as such) and he was speaking to me from a room where his, wife, children and obviously older people were holding a loud conversation (to me it sounded like a row or a major emergency, but he assured me all was well) in the background. It wasn't professional, but he clearly didn't live in a place where he could shut the rest of the family out while he worked.

You can argue that those are all exceptions, but they're real experiences of where people working overseas for lower wages is a negative.

I believe a lot of coding is done overseas now, especially in Eastern Europe, but that hasn't exactly meant that the demand for IT staff has dried up in the UK.

Taking your argument, though, if cheap overseas staff, working from home were more productive why wouldn't they have already have become the norm? If anything, there has been a swing back towards localized teams in my experience.

You may see SOME changes, but I don't predict mass unemployment as a result. In reality, you're already getting the workforce you want cheaper anyway. Less office costs, they pay for the electricity, no commuting loans to service, probably less sick days as people will work from home through a cold they wouldn't fancy going to the office with, etc, etc.

M

[Jdh1]

Some are, some aren't.

There's a big difference between having a team working the same daylight hours as you a couple of hours away from a central location where you can meet for team get-togethers now and then and having people working a significantly different day on the other side of the world.

Language is also an issue - Do you enjoy dealing with customer services teams who can barely understand English? That's what low wages buys you in most cases. Quality staff overseas are not as cheap as people believe.

I can recall having a call with one of our team in India (not outsourced, as such) and he was speaking to me from a room where his, wife, children and obviously older people were holding a loud conversation (to me it sounded like a row or a major emergency, but he assured me all was well) in the background. It wasn't professional, but he clearly didn't live in a place where he could shut the rest of the family out while he worked.

You can argue that those are all exceptions, but they're real experiences of where people working overseas for lower wages is a negative.

I believe a lot of coding is done overseas now, especially in Eastern Europe, but that hasn't exactly meant that the demand for IT staff has dried up in the UK.

Taking your argument, though, if cheap overseas staff, working from home were more productive why wouldn't they have already have become the norm? If anything, there has been a swing back towards localized teams in my experience.

You may see SOME changes, but I don't predict mass unemployment as a result. In reality, you're already getting the workforce you want cheaper anyway. Less office costs, they pay for the electricity, no commuting loans to service, probably less sick days as people will work from home through a cold they wouldn't fancy going to the office with, etc, etc.

M

Time will tell, but to answer "Why hasn't it already become the norm?" (home based overseas workers)...for the same reason UK home-based workers wasn't the norm/accepted - because employers were sceptical about it. Now they've tested the idea out, the next logical step to me is to try to drive the cost down further using the same idea, but bigger.

[jonasy]

It’s important when your ceo makes that statement that all employers immediately look for a new job, if people did this more frequently the natural selection would remove such tossers to be in power.

I’m sure no one works overtime at his company as you wouldn’t want the employer to only pay for full time for more than full time worth of work?

[Bigstam]

The ability to WFH has allowed me to recruit some high quality staff that would have previously not applied for roles due to location.

There is a gentle push from senior management to get back in the office but as a business we have offices all over the country and the vast majority of people are just sat on teams in the office! It seems to be dawning on them that you only need to go into the office 2 or 3 times a month and to have meaningful appointments in your diary to make the most of it.

Thats not to say that people can’t go in to the office, we do have a hand full of people that are doing 5 days a week in the office.

Ross

[snowman]

Time will tell, but to answer "Why hasn't it already become the norm?" (home based overseas workers)...for the same reason UK home-based workers wasn't the norm/accepted - because employers were sceptical about it. Now they've tested the idea out, the next logical step to me is to try to drive the cost down further using the same idea, but bigger.

Working from home and offshoring are two different things.

Offshoring was tried many years ago (I'm pretty sure my Dad's firm looked at it when I was at school in the 1970s! Certainly before the end of the 80s when he retired) and has only been a partial success.

Offshoring is far from a new idea and those staff won't be BETTER because they're working from home instead of an office any more than UK staff are.

I may be wrong, of course, but I don't see there being anything to change the UK vs Offshore balance just by having people working from home - In many ways, the UK is better served for home workers, decent broadband at home is far more prevalent than in most of the countries with a record of providing cheap offshore staff.

WFH gives you the same staff (but happier, if that's what they want) at a lower cost, whereas offshoring often gives you poorer staff at a lower cost.

....as a business we have offices all over the country and the vast majority of people are just sat on teams in the office!

That was exactly my experience in my last job - Big office in London, but when you went into to 'network', people were just on calls all day. Our clients were all over Europe and North America.

It's not the same, obviously, for all roles and businesses, but it is for a lot.

Managers who truly believe their staff are just looking to skive all the time should probably assess whether they're actually managing their staff very well or see if there are any opportunities in the local workhouse.

M

[prexelor]

I work in 1st line support and would say I am far more productive at home rather than work. There is no hiding as the soft phone will still ring and emails will still come through. Customers are surprised I am working from home as there is no difference in the service being provided.

I work based on a rota so cannot start late or go early. I have to be logged in and available as per the rota.

It is telling when you get an urgent email and you call the internal customer to hear ‘I am out shopping, can you call me back in an hour’.

In the service call notes, that is recorded.

[dougair]

Working from home and offshoring are two different things.

Offshoring was tried many years ago (I'm pretty sure my Dad's firm looked at it when I was at school in the 1970s! Certainly before the end of the 80s when he retired) and has only been a partial success.

Offshoring is far from a new idea and those staff won't be BETTER because they're working from home instead of an office any more than UK staff are.

I may be wrong, of course, but I don't see there being anything to change the UK vs Offshore balance just by having people working from home - In many ways, the UK is better served for home workers, decent broadband at home is far more prevalent than in most of the countries with a record of providing cheap offshore staff.

WFH gives you the same staff (but happier, if that's what they want) at a lower cost, whereas offshoring often gives you poorer staff at a lower cost.



That was exactly my experience in my last job - Big office in London, but when you went into to 'network', people were just on calls all day. Our clients were all over Europe and North America.

It's not the same, obviously, for all roles and businesses, but it is for a lot.

Managers who truly believe their staff are just looking to skive all the time should probably assess whether they're actually managing their staff very well or see if there are any opportunities in the local workhouse.

M

That’s the thing about those that think staff are on the skive when WFH…presumably the outputs on which their performance is measured haven’t changed and they are either not meeting them, meeting them or exceeding them in which case you manage as appropriate. I’m not sure how their location has any impact on this?! The only people who talk like that are poor leaders and empire builders IME.

[Jdh1]

Some interesting views, albeit shaped by self-interest for the most part. If I was a middle-aged office based desk-bound employee I'm sure I'd feel exactly the same.

Nobody seems to be addressing how you instill an organisation's culture into new people though, or how young people can even get established in a career if they're holed up in a bedsit with only a screen for company, or turning up at an office populated only with other youngsters as clueless as them.

[Dougal]

Despite being too old to count as a youngster, I feel it’s old fashioned to think that organisational culture relies on meeting face to face.

The world’s moved on, and it’s possible to build a culture digitally. If you’ve grown up as a digital native, many relationships are already built and nourished through a broad range of communication media.

I’m not saying there isn’t a place for face to face. But it’s less significant than it used to be.

In my experience, it’s possible to build a culture without relying entirely on face to face contact. However, it requires different leadership skills and asks senior managers to reevaluate their approach to managing (often younger) people.

[Suds]

Cant remember who it was but a good few months back one of the American biggies (Google/Facebook?) said the will happily expand wfh opportunities but that they would make salary savings because they wouldn't pay silicon valley wages to someone wfh in a state where living costs were cheaper.

[Onelasttime]

Cant remember who it was but a good few months back one of the American biggies (Google/Facebook?) said the will happily expand wfh opportunities but that they would make salary savings because they wouldn't pay silicon valley wages to someone wfh in a state where living costs were cheaper.

Didn’t they get swiftly slapped down for it? Feckin’ terrible idea.

[Suds]

Didn’t they get swiftly slapped down for it? Feckin’ terrible idea.

Is there still such a thing as the 'London weighting allowance'? I suspect London based employers may well take a similar approach for new hires wfh?

[wileeeeeey]

Is there still such a thing as the 'London weighting allowance'? I suspect London based employers may well take a similar approach for new hires wfh?

Not so much anymore. I only ever see that for police/gov/council jobs these days.

[Sweepinghand]

So I’ve started a new career - and it’s frankly absurd imo that we have been advised that all customers (unless extreme circs) must be seen face to face

We get TEN minutes with them
Imagine…. Now a phone call is imo if done well far more effective or a video call

Can I argue it….. no…..
we just SEE at least 15 a day
It’s quantity over quality and the “old school” approach of my employer is frankly daft

It’s leading to some new recruits leaving already - how ironic….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Not so much anymore. I only ever see that for police/gov/council jobs these days.

Salaries tend to be higher though?

[wileeeeeey]

Salaries tend to be higher though?

I would imagine so but there is no mention or itemisation of it on 90% of London job adverts

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I would imagine so but there is no mention or itemisation of it on 90% of London job adverts

As you posted earlier, probably a 'hang over' thing from public sector jobs historically?.

[wileeeeeey]

As you posted earlier, probably a 'hang over' thing from public sector jobs historically?.

Possibly. I've only had London weighting once in my life and that was when I was working part time in T-Mobile while at uni.

Only reason I know it still exists is I get battered with sponsored posts on LinkedIn to advertise police jobs.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Possibly. I've only had London weighting once in my life and that was when I was working part time in T-Mobile while at uni.

Only reason I know it still exists is I get battered with sponsored posts on LinkedIn to advertise police jobs.

The Emergency Services still struggle with retention despite the weighting.

[Jdh1]

This is interesting:

https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman...b-global-en-GB


Bottom line: Home working is working fine for churning work but will ultimately harm creativity and innovation.

Seems to make sense.