The right to work from home

[Jdh1]

Wonder what people think about the proposed new right to ask to work from home? Opinion seems very divided. On the one hand, supporters say being able to work from home leads to a happier and more productive workforce – most employees are certainly in favour. But perhaps that’s inevitable.

On the other, many employers are against it, a view typified by Andrew Monk, a Chief Exec in financial services, who argues that people abuse it and are less productive. His view is that a lot of people who ask for flexible working want to work part-time but on a full-time salary.

It seems to me that there’s not a one size fits all answer to this, but the policy will try to implement one. If you’re a middle aged manager, established in a company and with a settled home life…and self motivated….it will work. But what if you’re young, or new, or living with three mates in a flat or not a natural self starter? You could argue the policy gives you the choice I suppose, but turning up to an office populated only by people just like you probably isn’t great for your development either.

And then there’s the issue which always seems to get overlooked -working from home is only an option in a proportion of jobs, and these tend to be non-essential roles where people aren’t actually producing anything, or in the front line. Might a move to working from home (assuming it’s seen as desirable) tempt able people out of these essential roles, creating an unnatural imbalance?

On the whole I’m not optimistic.

[IAmATeaf]

I’ve been working from home for many years and for me and the company I work for there have been no complaints.

I have deadlines and dates and these don’t change as a result of working from home so the bottom line is that the work needs to be done and on time.

Keeping others in the team informed is also very important, so if I’m popping out then I’ll message to say so, same as if I am in an office.

There are always pros and cons, one big pro is flexible working, invariably I put in more hours when working from home, so I can go and have dinner with the family and then come back and carry on. When in the office I’m always clock watching at around 4:45 as I want to get out in order to catch a train or miss the rush hour traffic.

It is very easy to get distracted, I remember when I driest started my friends would see my car in the driveway and pop in thinking I had the day off.

What I’ve personally found is that the view of management seems to founded on their personal habit and inability to efficiently work from home so they smear all home workers with that same brush. Not saying there aren’t people who skive but then that is in part due to lack of proper control and management, so if this is the case then these same people will behave the same regardless whether in the office or at home?

[Dave O'Sullivan]

I fit tyres. I could try working from home but it’d probably annoy the neighbours…

[IAmATeaf]

I fit tyres. I could try working from home but it’d probably annoy the neighbours…

LOL, have you tried asking your management (you) if you can work from home

[ASW1]

Hiya. Are you talking flexible working or work from home? The recent news was re flexible working which is a very different thing. Already quite extensive labour laws re flexible working and this is just boosting the profile of this.

Re home working this will continue to evolve. We have a hybrid model where we recognise three key categories:

Those who want to be in the office
Those who want to be at home
Those that want a bit of both.

We're working our way through this along with colleague consultation and also reviewing actual behaviour as opposed to stated preferences. This will be an ongoing learning process and we will flex approach as time passes.

[Tooks]

As you say, it will work for some people and some jobs, and not others, and some organisations and not others.

The reality is that we’ll end up with a range of setups from full time workplace based, ‘hybrid’ working, to 100% home based.

Just like before the pandemic then.

I’m pleased that the issue is being discussed anyway, and some effort is being made to address the work/life balance issues that some industries have.

I’ve worked 100% at home previously, like a lot of people have now experienced due to Covid, and I didn’t like it.

Now I’m hybrid working, a mix of both workplace and home, and I enjoy the flexibility of it and I’m generally happier as a result.

[AIDM]

I work in aviation, only a very small percentage of the overall work force (back roomstaff, head office) could feasibly work from home.

[Estoril-5]

On the other, many employers are against it, a view typified by Andrew Monk, a Chief Exec in financial services, who argues that people abuse it and are less productive. His view is that a lot of people who ask for flexible working want to work part-time but on a full-time salary.

Surely employees who are less productive should be handled by their line manager - regardless of working location. His argument doesn't hold much weight in my opinion.

[Mj2k]

I’ve had home based roles and teams to manage in the past, those that will do the minimum would be the same in the office regardless.

We went from a 5 days a week at the office to a smaller induce & a day a week post Covid changes. During the 18 months working from home, our profits are up and we have continued to deliver.

I did joke with my line manager that going into the office would have me working at a smaller monitor in a less comfortable chair. That said I am happy with 1 day a week, 30 min train commute, or can also drive to Edgware Road if I don’t like the train.

The new level of flexibility is great, dragged us into the modern age & made us realise what was possible. We cannot even revert back now, as the new office is much, much smaller.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[oldoakknives]

Seems every business you ring, whose telephone teams are working from home, have lot longer wait times.

[ryanb741]

Suspect it will end up flexible but with 2 days a week moving to 3 days and so on. Very hard to create a company culture (this is far more important than people think) if people work exclusively remotely. However I suspect offices will need to step up and offer more enticing reasons for people to be there.

[Jdh1]

I think most here are coming from a middle aged...settled...career established perspective. But do you see this working from home system working long term when you or others join other organisations, or for young people starting out in a career?

[Pitfitter]

Never had a job where working from home was possible but my SiL has worked from home through Covid and is starting a new job where home working is the only option, computer programming work(I don't understand it) so has no need to be in an office when it can be done from anywhere linked by computer, he's happy, they're happy, why not as long as projects come in on time.

[Jdh1]

Suspect it will end up flexible but with 2 days a week moving to 3 days and so on. Very hard to create a company culture (this is far more important than people think) if people work exclusively remotely. However I suspect offices will need to step up and offer more enticing reasons for people to be there.

I think this is a much undersestimated aspect. At the moment, companies are benefitting from the culture built up over years of 'normal' working. But over time, as people move on (and I believe home working will weaken some of the bonds that cause people to stay at a company, thereby increasing staff turnover) that cuture and ethos will become eroded.

[Onelasttime]

I'm in the office today for the first time since March 2020. It's quiet but a few of my team are here and it's been great catching up and doing work in an office environment again.

That said, I cannot believe I used to do that commute every single day, some nights not getting in until gone 10, putting up with crowded, sweaty tube carriages, signal failures, having to take mad detours to avoid broken tube lines, regularly missing the kids' tea/bed time and not being there to take them to their various after-school stuff. Insane that people were made to do that.

For me, hybrid working will be the best of both worlds - 2-3 days in the office to talk to colleagues in person, then 2-3 days at home to be there for family. Perfect!

One thing I do know is my company has got more hours of productive work out of me while at home than they ever did in the office. The 3 hours spent commuting every day are now mostly spent doing work.

I have no doubt that some will swing the lead, but I'm equally certain that companies will ensure they have processes in place to negate this as much as they legally can.

Let's face it, the old system of being in all day didn't work for everyone and neither will this, but at least it offers a choice.

[aa388]

I fit tyres. I could try working from home but it’d probably annoy the neighbours…

I could have done with you last night, waited 5 hours at the side of the M1 to have one changed last night.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Onelasttime]

I could have done with you last night, waited 5 hours at the side of the M1 to have one changed last night.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Lorry driver?

[MB2]

Like others have said, it works well for some roles others less so.

There was an interesting case from I think the US patent office who employed the partners of military personnel as they were located next to a large base. Every few years they would be moved base and the patent office would lose their employee too. WFH has let them keep their staff as the spouses are deployed around the world.

[Meesterbond]

Like others have said, it works well for some roles others less so.

There was an interesting case from I think the US patent office who employed the partners of military personnel as they were located next to a large base. Every few years they would be moved base and the patent office would lose their employee too. WFH has let them keep their staff as the spouses are deployed around the world.

There was a Freakanomics podcast on that a while back. It was used as a case study to analyse whether 'Work from Anywhere' was more or less productive. From memory, the patent examiners that moved onto the programme were 5% or so more productive than they were in an office environment, measured in a pretty robust way. The caveat was that this type of work did lend itself to remote working.

A couple of observations on how the pandemic has affected remote working... firstly it's accelerated the acceptance that it can work. People, particularly management, who perhaps would not have accepted it have been forced to and have seen that it can work.
Secondly, some studies my wife commissioned at her place of work have seen the optimal balance of WFH/Office shift from the first to the second lockdowns. During the first lockdown there were a sgnificant proportion of people who wanted to WFH most of the time - at least 4 days WFH to 1 in the office. After the second lockdown that had moved to 2 or 3 days from home a week.
The other thing that I'm not sure has been addressed in all areas is that managing remote workers is a different skillset to managing an office-based team. I'd be interested to know whether much has been done to train managers on how to adapt to that.

[MB2]

Of course the big change is the technology - 5 years ago "WFH" was put in air quotes for a Friday as for many it meant some calls & catching up on expenses - now modern tech and the impossibility of travel have made WFH potentially far more productive than it was just a few years ago.

I used to WFH and using VPN to check stock etc. was a pain now with cloud based ERP it is the same as being in the office for me.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Love to work from home but sadly a 4 post will only just fit in my living room, not only that the wife gets a bit fussy about oil spillage on the carpet.

[Toddy]

I'm classed as an essential worker so have been on site with my team right through the pandemic. My wife (who works for the same company) has been working from home for the last 18 months due to Covid restrictions but is now starting to go back into the office. I asked her today about working from home v working in the office and she said she can't wait to get back to the office full time. She says there's no cut off from working at home all day then switching the laptop off and being in the same place. She also says that she misses out on a lot of work related issues as she's not surrounded by her team for a quick catch up etc. I've no idea how she's managed for the 18 months as working at home would have driven me mad. Suppose it all boils down to the type of work you do and where you can do it best at. As for the right to work from home I'm probably old school and say it's down to the employer to decide.

[pugster]

would just be another law that gives a headache to employers - todays culture thinks they should have the right to do anything they please (no matter how retarded it might be) , thread title reminded me of this great movie

[MrSmith]

That said, I cannot believe I used to do that commute every single day, some nights not getting in until gone 10, putting up with crowded, sweaty tube carriages, signal failures, having to take mad detours to avoid broken tube lines, regularly missing the kids' tea/bed time and not being there to take them to their various after-school stuff. Insane that people were made to do that.

Nobody was made to do it though were they?

One thing I do know is my company has got more hours of productive work out of me while at home than they ever did in the office. The 3 hours spent commuting every day are now mostly spent doing work.

That’s quite sad, surely those extra 3 hours a day would be better spent on quality time for yourself/with family etc.

I can understand if self employed (I have been most of my working life) but the thought of willingly giving my employer 3 hours extra work every day above my contract because I’m not commuting is madness.

[Chinnock]

Being a business owner, it’s my choice where my employees work.

[Chewitt13]

I forced myself back to the office about 10 weeks ago doing maybe 1-2 days a week, about 5 weeks ago I upped it to 3 days ( this is the new company vision of flexible working) I had to ensure I have a fixed schedule Mon - wed otherwise I would just put it off. Last night as I was leaving I was thinking of going in a fourth day, 10 weeks ago I didn't want to do 1 day never mind 4, we all get comfortable with our environment whether it is home or office

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Wolfie]

I miss the discipline of going into the office:…. I had mainly worked from home prior to that for near on 7 years and felt quite isolated at times and don’t think it was great for my career either… I have nothing much to do with a lot of my colleagues in the office due a roll change, but, I think (once things open up a bit) I’ll end up hybrid 2/ 3 days in an office and the rest at home plus travel…. I’m now out of excuses and have to go to the States in November for a couple of weeks (not sure how I feel about that?!)

[dougair]

Being a business owner, it’s my choice where my employees work.

It’s also your employees choice which company they work for. Just sayin.

[Chinnock]

It’s also your employees choice which company they work for. Just sayin.

Absolutely, if you don’t like my set up please don’t join / stay.

Nothing worse than unhappy employee’s in my book.

[Onelasttime]

Nobody was made to do it though were they?

But they were and are or they wouldn't have a job? Not everyone can get work with hours and location to suit them. It invariably suits the employer.

That’s quite sad, surely those extra 3 hours a day would be better spent on quality time for yourself/with family etc.

I can understand if self employed (I have been most of my working life) but the thought of willingly giving my employer 3 hours extra work every day above my contract because I’m not commuting is madness.

It wasn't willingly, believe me. The magazine I work for went through the roof in lockdown so we started producing more and more content, more and more extras, marketing ramped up, etc. No one expected it and for the first 6 months it was bonkers.

The team has now recruited extra hands and restructured to relieve the pressure. And it wasn't 3 hours every day so don't be sad on my behalf.

Everything is far more balanced now, but the nature of my business is always about the pressure building towards press day and then a couple of weeks relief after, before cracking on again.

I've spent more time with my family in the past 18 months than I ever did in the previous 10 years so it works for me.

[snowman]

Surely employees who are less productive should be handled by their line manager - regardless of working location. His argument doesn't hold much weight in my opinion.

Totally agree.

In my experience, poor managers are against working from home (where it's feasible), good ones adapt and get more from happier staff.

M

Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

[Tifa]

Seems every business you ring, whose telephone teams are working from home, have lot longer wait times.

Yep...mostly too busy looking at their own phones....and waiting for a colleague to pick up the call...
For the most part line management hasn't got a grip on the problem, and employees are free to take the p!ss.

Like someone has already said, he who pays the wages, should decide who works where.

[wileeeeeey]

Seems every business you ring, whose telephone teams are working from home, have lot longer wait times.

Could also have something to do with 1m job vacancies.

Suspect it will end up flexible but with 2 days a week moving to 3 days and so on. Very hard to create a company culture (this is far more important than people think) if people work exclusively remotely. However I suspect offices will need to step up and offer more enticing reasons for people to be there.

Agree, offices are going to have to work hard to get people in. FOMO can only get you so far. Corporate dress code needs to calm down. Trekking into London daily isn't ideal and a suit makes it so much worse.

[DiXoN]

I worked from home and in the office before March last year and will be back in the office in 2 weeks time doing the same. I can’t wait actually as it’s not the same with the rest of the team solely online.

[Jdh1]

Being a business owner, it’s my choice where my employees work.

I've had a couple of strange conversations with chief executives recently who have said they want their staff to come into the office but are struggling to persuade them to do so.

Call me a dinosaur if you like, but what's going on? The people paying the wages are struggling to persuade people to come into their place of work?

[wileeeeeey]

I've had a couple of strange conversations with chief executives recently who have said they want their staff to come into the office but are struggling to persuade them to do so.

Call me a dinosaur if you like, but what's going on? The people paying the wages are struggling to persuade people to come into their place of work?

Recruiters are slammed right now. So many people are leaving that a lot of companies are trying to flatten their own curve. If you force the office on your employees your next issue could be backfilling in an extremely competitive market.

I work for a plc where everyone is going back 2-3 days in Oct. I've said I won't be in this side of Christmas and while there was some pushback it's been accepted. If they had tried to force me on this I would have left. I can find a comparable job quicker than they can find a comparable hire.

What's the cost of having no one doing a job for 1-3 months, recruiting, paying an increased wage to backfill, onboarding, and then getting them up to speed and self sufficient over the following 3-6 months? All that Vs someone who's doing exactly what they need to do, achieving everything they need to achieve, but doing it from their study instead of your depressing workspace with some idiot always microwaving fish?

[snowman]

I've had a couple of strange conversations with chief executives recently who have said they want their staff to come into the office but are struggling to persuade them to do so.

Call me a dinosaur if you like, but what's going on? The people paying the wages are struggling to persuade people to come into their place of work?

Right now the boot is on the other foot.

I can't, though, see companies who don't actually need people in a facility (and that isn't an office) seeing a lot of sense in spending the kind of money they used to on office space.

Most, I suspect, will want to downsize.

It's not a good time to be an office landlord I suspect...

M

Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

[Onelasttime]

... doing it from their study instead of your depressing workspace with some idiot always microwaving fish?

LOL 

[MrSmith]

I've had a couple of strange conversations with chief executives recently who have said they want their staff to come into the office but are struggling to persuade them to do so.

Call me a dinosaur if you like, but what's going on? The people paying the wages are struggling to persuade people to come into their place of work?

Isn’t that irrelevant if the work is being done and they are more productive at home?

My partner started a new job in an advertising agency in January, she went to the office for the first time in August for an induction to the new building (swanky new one that’s smaller than the old one) and hasn’t been back since.
This is in a creative director role, it seems it’s just IT staff and some of the youngsters in flat shares that bother to go in, unvaccinated on Monday’s/Tuesdays and vaccinated Wednesday to Friday.

All the seniors live out in the sticks and aren’t rushing back either.

[wileeeeeey]

[Mr Curta]

Things have changed and we have to adapt. Some people find returning to an environment with other people of great benefit to their mental health whilst others are struggling with severe anxieties around the same. Many have experienced life changes that mean that working from home enables them to better support their family wellbeing. It's important for employers and managers to listen and provide the right support for those who have had to return to onsite working if what they do cannot be effectively carried out at home.

It is also reasonable to expect employers to review the relevance of location allowances for positions that are no longer on location.

[oldoakknives]

Yep...mostly too busy looking at their own phones....and waiting for a colleague to pick up the call...
For the most part line management hasn't got a grip on the problem, and employees are free to take the p!ss.

Like someone has already said, he who pays the wages, should decide who works where.

I think that might be the case in a lot of instances.

Thing is if they can work from home, via the net and phones, they don't need to be in this country they could be could be anywhere. Like places where people are prepared to earn a lot less perhaps. Be careful what you wish for springs to mind.

[Dougal]

Like others, my three hours a day commuting has become three hours extra work a day. The organisation gets many hours more work and productivity out of me working from home. And I’d rather be productive than stuck on a dreary commute.

Agree, offices are going to have to work hard to get people in. FOMO can only get you so far. Corporate dress code needs to calm down. Trekking into London daily isn't ideal and a suit makes it so much worse.

I agree. Also, I have found that the informality of video conferencing (no suits and insights into people’s home lives) has improved working culture.

[Michael 38]

I think that might be the case in a lot of instances.

Thing is if they can work from home, via the net and phones, they don't need to be in this country they could be could be anywhere. Like places where people are prepared to earn a lot less perhaps. Be careful what you wish for springs to mind.

I agree with this look what happened to all the uk call centres when these company’s worked out they could do it from India for peanuts

[RJM25R]

Couple of different sides to it from what I can see.

I work for Mercedes-Benz selling cars. It’s virtually impossible to work from home, as people who have isolated due to Covid have discovered, however post-lockdown a few sales staff have decided that the job is not for them anymore and moved to other jobs. My commute (16 miles each way) has improved but largely nothing else has changed.

My son however is now working virtually full time from home (visits the office once every 2-3weeks) Aged 23, and his main job (he also freelances) is as a Sports Journalist and social editor (twitter etc) online for one of the biggest names in the field. He’s had an official pay rise because productivity is up, and an unofficial pay rise because he is no longer spending £40 a week on the tram and circa £50 a week on lunches in the centre of Manchester. He cancan do his work easily from home, as most of his interviews and sourcing has traditionally been done on the phone, email or Zoom/Teams anyway.


The time he was using to commute, he is walking, running or going to the gym. The company he is working for is now considering closing the Manchester office completely (on Dale St -big rent!) and having a flexible work space just outside the city where they will have a rolling rota with people there a couple of days in rotation.

My lad doesn’t drink, so is up early and getting on with it however when he does go into the office, he says it’s a bit of a doss-up, and they do very little because they are all chatting and showing each other videos on the phone etc and then working hard for a couple of hours to get the content uploaded.

Working from home is perfect for him (we converted the spare room into an office for him) but he’s wise beyond his 23 years, however he tells me stories about going out with his pals at work and they are getting toasted on a Tuesday night because it doesn’t matter if they are rough as a dog and stink of ale when they are working from home on a Wednesday.

With no-one to answer to, working from home isn’t necessarily suitable for everyone…….

[Chinnock]

I've had a couple of strange conversations with chief executives recently who have said they want their staff to come into the office but are struggling to persuade them to do so.

Call me a dinosaur if you like, but what's going on? The people paying the wages are struggling to persuade people to come into their place of work?

Due to draconian lockdowns in South Africa, I closed my office, staff now work from home, productivity is up and work / lifestyle has made for happier staff etc

However.........if at any time I thought the current arrangement was no longer beneficial and productivity was being compromised over personal commitments during working hours, then needless to say I would reopen an office if that was the solution.

I think for many employers who are office / city based, this returning to "normal" working life is not becoming as attractive since employees have experienced a shift in their work / lifestyle, but nevertheless, if that is what the employer wants, then as the salary provider, ultimately it should be their choice without restraint.

[dougair]

Recruiters are slammed right now. So many people are leaving that a lot of companies are trying to flatten their own curve. If you force the office on your employees your next issue could be backfilling in an extremely competitive market.

I work for a plc where everyone is going back 2-3 days in Oct. I've said I won't be in this side of Christmas and while there was some pushback it's been accepted. If they had tried to force me on this I would have left. I can find a comparable job quicker than they can find a comparable hire.

What's the cost of having no one doing a job for 1-3 months, recruiting, paying an increased wage to backfill, onboarding, and then getting them up to speed and self sufficient over the following 3-6 months? All that Vs someone who's doing exactly what they need to do, achieving everything they need to achieve, but doing it from their study instead of your depressing workspace with some idiot always microwaving fish?

That’s the crux, as an employer you can insist on what you want but the landscape is shifting fast and there are other employers who can offer the flexibility. If you want to retain talent and be competitive when looking for the best staff you need to adapt or die. Employees are getting wise and will vote with their feet. The balance of power is becoming more equitable I think.

[snowman]

...returning to "normal" working life is not becoming as attractive since employees have experienced a shift in their work / lifestyle, but nevertheless, if that is what the employer wants, then as the salary provider, ultimately it should be their choice without restraint.

I agree, it should be their choice.

Regulation seems an odd approach.

Obviously, people will weigh up the options and decide what is best for them.

If an employer unreasonably expects staff to sit in an office without compensation for that, many will vote with their feet.

If it's the only way to practically do business, then that's the way it is.

Oddly, for a Conservative government, they should not interfere and let the market decide!

M



Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk

[dougair]

I agree with this look what happened to all the uk call centres when these company’s worked out they could do it from India for peanuts

That’s got nothing to do with it IMO, if companies could outsource overseas they could do so regardless of COVID or more flexible working and would have done so already or may do in the past but for reasons of cost saving which is separate.

[snowman]

That’s got nothing to do with it IMO, if companies could outsource overseas they could do so regardless of COVID or more flexible working and would have done so already or may do in the past but for reasons of cost-saving which is separate.

Precisely.

Some companies did outsource overseas and then bought it back into the UK, because the reaction was so negative.

My son works in a customer services team - Based in the UK, providing support to the UK and North America - They could do it cheaper in Eastern Europe or Asia, I'm sure, but they don't.

I work for an IT services delivery firm who do implementations for another organisation. There are plenty of huge, international organisations who have 'trained' an army of cheaper, overseas staff, but people still prefer to deal with us (indeed, some have turned to us in frustration) because the 'trained' staff have done all the online courses, but never delivered an actual project...

If companies are run by people who think their staff are doing a better job sitting at a desk in an office in London rather than working from home, but without any other evidence or measurement, you really wonder if those people should be running anything...

I worked for a company that bought in a 'manager' who thought like that. In 6 months, 7 of his 8 reports had left...

M