Going self employed

[sprite1275]

Never been self employed before but I'm going to give it a go as a home maintenance/repair type role.

I'm pretty crap when it comes to economics, tax etc so if anyone has any hints/tips they will be most welcome.

How's the best way to get started?

I heard it's best to open a new bank account. Does it need to be a business one?
Do I need an accountant now, later or not at all?
Some kind of liability insurance?

I'm also thinking if this is a good time to start going alone or not.

[demonloop]

You can start by sending a simple form to HMRC (it's likely online nowadays), to let them know and they'll expect a self-assessment from you every year, its pretty simple to complete

You don't need an accountant unless you form a Ltd Co, and you don't really need that (though it takes away your personal liability should something go wrong)

You'll need liability insurance for sure, but that's also straightforward

Better to open a new bank account IMO, keeps things separate. Plenty of free personal accounts and free business accounts for sole traders if you want the business name on the account

[Backward point]

Never been self employed before but I'm going to give it a go as a home maintenance/repair type role.

I'm pretty crap when it comes to economics, tax etc so if anyone has any hints/tips they will be most welcome.

How's the best way to get started?

I heard it's best to open a new bank account. Does it need to be a business one?
Do I need an accountant now, later or not at all?
Some kind of liability insurance?

I'm also thinking if this is a good time to start going alone or not.

Yes.

[mk1974]

I’d get an accountant,preferably a small company,they’ll register you and basically take all the paperwork hassle away,if you can find an accountant that is a one man band they basically can act like your secretary (that’s what I found)tell you when to put the books in .
Also when doing your books they know all the bits and pieces you can claim for .
You’ll not need a business account,but I’d get a separate one.
Has for a good time to start ,well it’s pretty busy out there .


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[Lammylee]

Also sort out your liability insurance, make a website yourself ( simple different app is any easy way to go this, google adds is a good way to get it seen ) and call As many local Management companies as you can find online, press the building management option and ask if there are any sites they need a quote for, don’t bother emailing it will generally go unnoticed.
Good luck

[higham5]

I know this sounds pedantic , but have you done a business plan. Two reasons , 1 to make sure what you have planned puts wool on your back. 2 when you go to open a business account they will probably ask for a copy.

As stated above , get a simple website up and running, it may seem shallow but folk often judge you by your online presence. Ask around for a good accountant. There are also chains eg Tax assist.
https://www.taxassist.co.uk/find-you...CAAEgIDifD_BwE

Lots of trades folk are using Facebook as a method of getting work in.


I had a comparatively low turnover for my own business so I went down the sole trader route. You may wish to consider a limited company , but decide on this before you sort out your public liability insurance as its a lot dearer for limited co’s.

Lastly good luck, be prepared for working harder and longer hours than you have done before.

Steve

[Jdh1]

Definitely get an accountant. A small local firm is best and they'll be able to help and advise with keeping on the right side of the law and HMRC. Their services are tax deductible anyway, and they'll probably come up with a number of things you can set againast tax which will more than pay for their services. Yes, you'll need insurance and a seperate bank account.It's easy to get in a tangle if you start confusing business and personal expenditure. There certainly seems to be plenty of work out there at the moment,

[Neil.C]

I would echo getting a decent local accountant.

Liability insurance is not too pricey and easy to get online.

I retired at fifty but spent most of my life self employed in various businesses, you'll never get rich working for somebody else.

Good luck.

[deepreddave]

You don't need an accountant but a decent one will be worth their fees for the first couple of years at least unless you're comfortable with learning some basics about tax/vat.

Definitely use a separate personal or businesses account. It forms a useful part of your records and negates the prospects of HMRC trawling through your private income/expenses should they ever check your return.

Get a duplicate invoice book and use it.
Keep all your expense receipts and pay as many as possible via the business account card. Record any cash expenses.
Keep a record of your business mileage.
Understand you can claim for all genuine business expenses but not for private expenses.
Keep on top of your records every week/month, as good habits are as hard to break as bad ones.


Monitor your 'rolling' turnover with regard to the need to register for vat (unlikely until your business grows).




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[sprite1275]

Cheers everyone. Accountant it is then. Checked out nationwide for a business bank account but it seems you need minimum 5k in it.

Website ah. I shall look into this. Was also thinking going old school with leaflets.

[Rbains0708]

Definitely agree that you need an accountant,it makes you look better to HMRC


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[higham5]

Cheers everyone. Accountant it is then. Checked out nationwide for a business bank account but it seems you need minimum 5k in it.

Website ah. I shall look into this. Was also thinking going old school with leaflets.

I went with Lloyds , they never mentioned any minimum. Leaflets can be cheap to buy but also look cheap. If you are using them be very specific about your target audience. You might be better asking can you leave a small display pack at local builders decorators merchants, that if they dont get knicked by your competitors:)

[JonRA]

A friend of mine has recently set up an 'odd job man' business and it quickly built up from 'something to earn some beer money' to a full time job. There is definitely the demand for someone reliable and competent. Hope it goes well for you.

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[numberjack]

Re bank account .
I just opened a Tide online account for a new business much simpler than trying to get an account with a high st bank .

[stoneyloon]

Re bank account .
I just opened a Tide online account for a new business much simpler than trying to get an account with a high st bank .

I'll second Tide.
I've had a few businesses and setting up with them was by far the easiest and their fees are not bad either....


Cheers,

Adam.

[sprite1275]

A friend of mine has recently set up an 'odd job man' business and it quickly built up from 'something to earn some beer money' to a full time job. There is definitely the demand for someone reliable and competent. Hope it goes well for you.

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Good to hear and fair play to him. Only one way to find out if I can do the same.

[Bonny Marco]

Hi,

If you're going with an accountant, I suggest you ask about software and apps. Some of them will give mobile apps to send invoices from, scan your receipts for expenses and do accounting as part of their service.

Common systems are Xero, Receipt Bank.

I think NatWest give you an accounting system called Free Agent for free provided you have a business account with them.

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[wileeeeeey]

We recently paid for some shutters and the guys we used had a Tide business account. There were 4 or 5 warnings on our banking app when sending him money as they couldn't guarantee the name matched the account. Had to call him twice to make sure the numbers were definitely correct.

I'd probably get a Starling account instead.

[Captaincook]

Never been self employed before but I'm going to give it a go as a home maintenance/repair type role.

I'm pretty crap when it comes to economics, tax etc so if anyone has any hints/tips they will be most welcome.

How's the best way to get started?

I heard it's best to open a new bank account. Does it need to be a business one?
Do I need an accountant now, later or not at all?
Some kind of liability insurance?

I'm also thinking if this is a good time to start going alone or not.

If you are planning to go self employed, would it be fair to assume you are doing a similar role but currently working for someone.

I would say that before you get an accountant, you need to get your head around being self employed. Are you comfortable finding and pricing work? Are you happy you have the skill set needed to do the jobs? Do you have the tools? The reason I ask these questions, is because you asked “how do I get started”. I would imagine individuals in a similar line of work, start off working for someone else, then realise they could earn more money doing it for themselves.

A lot of good advice has been provided already, and the best way to get started is to do what you’re doing by asking questions.

With regards to Accountants, Like any service provider, the level of service you get will vary dramatically. At one end of the scale you will have one charging £100 per year to file your tax return, to another who will do everything including consulting, advising, planning and of course the accounting but will charge you £££‘s. Many accountants before taking on a new client will have or hold introductory meetings free of charge. There is no reason why you couldn’t introduce yourself, raise your questions and based on their responses, pick one that meets your needs. At the same time, It’s fair to say that not every accountant, takes on every client that walk through their doors.

Being self-employed does have many advantages but being responsible for your taxes at the end of the year Can become a problem if you haven’t considered these before hand. I.e. you earn £100 today, But come many months later a proportion of that £100 (depending on your situation) may have to go towards your tax liability (which your accountant will confirm).

If you can get your head around the financials/taxes and the fact that some months your pockets will be full of ££’s and other months they may be less so, being self-employed will bring you many many happy days.

[higham5]

I'll second Tide.
I've had a few businesses and setting up with them was by far the easiest and their fees are not bad either....


Cheers,

Adam.

I personally wouldn’t go with Tide , they have a history of being involved with laundering…………………one for our older readers there :)

[Neil.Ldn]

We recently paid for some shutters and the guys we used had a Tide business account. There were 4 or 5 warnings on our banking app when sending him money as they couldn't guarantee the name matched the account. Had to call him twice to make sure the numbers were definitely correct.

I'd probably get a Starling account instead.

Thats nothing to do with Tide per se - it will happen with any bank. Your contractors just need to be very clear on their invoices what the details should be for online transfers. Had similar issues myself recently.

[wileeeeeey]

Thats nothing to do with Tide per se - it will happen with any bank. Your contractors just need to be very clear on their invoices what the details should be for online transfers. Had similar issues myself recently.

It's to do with Tide not supporting the name check protocol. If they can't do something that simple I wouldn't want to see what they do when something difficult pops up.

[Bravo73]

Cheers everyone. Accountant it is then. Checked out nationwide for a business bank account but it seems you need minimum 5k in it.

Have a look at Starling Bank for a business account. I’m pretty sure that it’s free to setup and it’s free to run. (Most High Street business bank accounts have account charges).

The best thing is that you can run everything from your smartphone.

[Neil.Ldn]

It's to do with Tide not supporting the name check protocol. If they can't do something that simple I wouldn't want to see what they do when something difficult pops up.

Fair dos - it read to me like the protocol was in place but that the details didn’t match. Had this with one of my customers recently, exacerbated by my accounting software not displaying payment details clearly enough with the protocol in mind

[wileeeeeey]

Fair dos - it read to me like the protocol was in place but that the details didn’t match. Had this with one of my customers recently, exacerbated by my accounting software not displaying payment details clearly enough with the protocol in mind

I had it a while back trying to send money to a builder who was with Barclays.

The builder couldn't be bothered and just sent me a pic of his bank card on WhatsApp.

[sprite1275]

If you are planning to go self employed, would it be fair to assume you are doing a similar role but currently working for someone.

I would say that before you get an accountant, you need to get your head around being self employed. Are you comfortable finding and pricing work? Are you happy you have the skill set needed to do the jobs? Do you have the tools? The reason I ask these questions, is because you asked “how do I get started”. I would imagine individuals in a similar line of work, start off working for someone else, then realise they could earn more money doing it for themselves.

A lot of good advice has been provided already, and the best way to get started is to do what you’re doing by asking questions.

With regards to Accountants, Like any service provider, the level of service you get will vary dramatically. At one end of the scale you will have one charging £100 per year to file your tax return, to another who will do everything including consulting, advising, planning and of course the accounting but will charge you £££‘s. Many accountants before taking on a new client will have or hold introductory meetings free of charge. There is no reason why you couldn’t introduce yourself, raise your questions and based on their responses, pick one that meets your needs. At the same time, It’s fair to say that not every accountant, takes on every client that walk through their doors.

Being self-employed does have many advantages but being responsible for your taxes at the end of the year Can become a problem if you haven’t considered these before hand. I.e. you earn £100 today, But come many months later a proportion of that £100 (depending on your situation) may have to go towards your tax liability (which your accountant will confirm).

If you can get your head around the financials/taxes and the fact that some months your pockets will be full of ££’s and other months they may be less so, being self-employed will bring you many many happy days.

Long story short. I am Qualified carpenter/joiner although have never really taken advantage of the fact. After my apprenticeship I got made redundant. I ended up Working a lot in factory's. Then went back into the trade and joined a building maintenance firm until the recession hit. Since then I've been doing part time as a caretaker. I'm at a point where I want to try and earn some decent money. I've never earned more than 21k a year and no where near that now. If I ever earn near 30k in a year I swear I'll feel like Rockefeller.
I have the skills, currently I have the drive,could do with a kick up the arse sometimes but I want to to give it a go.

Went to town today and went in every bank. All said you need to go online for ita business account as they know nothing about them. When I said do you actually need a business account they said it's not law but if they find out your using a normal account for business they will shut it down....! Also most of them are free.... For the first 12 months then there are charges.

[Captaincook]

The background all sounds pretty positive to me. If it was me, I would look to keep my current job whilst I started up the self-employment side.

HMRC will let you earn £1,000 per year without the need for declaring this income or registering as self-employed. I appreciate it’s a relatively small amount, but this will allow you to get the ball rolling, test the water and you can take it from there.

Also this way, you don’t need a business account nor an accountant from day one.

[Mr G Imp]

Long story short. I am Qualified carpenter/joiner although have never really taken advantage of the fact. After my apprenticeship I got made redundant. I ended up Working a lot in factory's. Then went back into the trade and joined a building maintenance firm until the recession hit. Since then I've been doing part time as a caretaker. I'm at a point where I want to try and earn some decent money. I've never earned more than 21k a year and no where near that now. If I ever earn near 30k in a year I swear I'll feel like Rockefeller.
I have the skills, currently I have the drive,could do with a kick up the arse sometimes but I want to to give it a go.

Went to town today and went in every bank. All said you need to go online for ita business account as they know nothing about them. When I said do you actually need a business account they said it's not law but if they find out your using a normal account for business they will shut it down....! Also most of them are free.... For the first 12 months then there are charges.

Don’t worry too much about the bank account it’s the least of your issues.

You need to let people know what you’re selling ! Advertise your self.

Also set yourself some rules/hours / limits and stick to them - People always say you will work stupid hours running your own business, you probably will if you try and do everything in the business,
Before you know it, you will be answering the phone and emailing at 930pm and working weekends. It’s not sustainable.

Start off with doing what you are good at and grow from there, pay someone to do the books/accounting/anything you don’t like.

There is some great software for making quotes and organising your diary.

Most people use email these days even old people.

Charge a decent amount for a decent job.

Get a separate work phone.

Turn up, quote the job, book it in, do the job - send an invoice.

£££

[mk1974]

Long story short. I am Qualified carpenter/joiner although have never really taken advantage of the fact. After my apprenticeship I got made redundant. I ended up Working a lot in factory's. Then went back into the trade and joined a building maintenance firm until the recession hit. Since then I've been doing part time as a caretaker. I'm at a point where I want to try and earn some decent money. I've never earned more than 21k a year and no where near that now. If I ever earn near 30k in a year I swear I'll feel like Rockefeller.
I have the skills, currently I have the drive,could do with a kick up the arse sometimes but I want to to give it a go.

Went to town today and went in every bank. All said you need to go online for ita business account as they know nothing about them. When I said do you actually need a business account they said it's not law but if they find out your using a normal account for business they will shut it down....! Also most of them are free.... For the first 12 months then there are charges.

Where are you based


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[sprite1275]

Where are you based


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east staffs

[sprite1275]

The background all sounds pretty positive to me. If it was me, I would look to keep my current job whilst I started up the self-employment side.

HMRC will let you earn £1,000 per year without the need for declaring this income or registering as self-employed. I appreciate it’s a relatively small amount, but this will allow you to get the ball rolling, test the water and you can take it from there.

Also this way, you don’t need a business account nor an accountant from day one.

Probably what I'll have to do as most banks said their waiting lists for business accounts were big. I've looked at tide but a bit worrying with mixed reviews.

[sprite1275]

Don’t worry too much about the bank account it’s the least of your issues.

You need to let people know what you’re selling ! Advertise your self.

Also set yourself some rules/hours / limits and stick to them - People always say you will work stupid hours running your own business, you probably will if you try and do everything in the business,
Before you know it, you will be answering the phone and emailing at 930pm and working weekends. It’s not sustainable.

Start off with doing what you are good at and grow from there, pay someone to do the books/accounting/anything you don’t like.

There is some great software for making quotes and organising your diary.

Most people use email these days even old people.

Charge a decent amount for a decent job.

Get a separate work phone.

Turn up, quote the job, book it in, do the job - send an invoice.

£££

Yes I've thought of this. I work to live and do not want to be working crazy hours. Although I am willing to to get up and running.
"Charge a decent amount for a decent job" that's what I reckon I'll struggle with. Making sure I don't undercut myself.

Also quality work does not come fast. Trouble is most people want the latter.

[Mr G Imp]

Yes I've thought of this. I work to live and do not want to be working crazy hours. Although I am willing to to get up and running.
"Charge a decent amount for a decent job" that's what I reckon I'll struggle with. Making sure I don't undercut myself.

Also quality work does not come fast. Trouble is most people want the latter.

You have to set your own standards and try as best you can to stick to them, this applies to quotes and also your working hours.

Quality work costs good money, there will always be someone who will do it cheaper and cut corners. The type of clients you want to aim for are the ones who want a good job doing not a cheap job.

[David_D]

HMRC will let you earn £1,000 per year without the need for declaring this income or registering as self-employed. I appreciate it’s a relatively small amount, but this will allow you to get the ball rolling, test the water and you can take it from there.

This is the guidance on the tax trading allowance. £1,000 isn’t a lot so the OP would need to keep a close eye on income so that he can do the necessary when/if he reaches the threshold.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tax-free...-income#cannot

[johnboy9876]

Cheers everyone. Accountant it is then. Checked out nationwide for a business bank account but it seems you need minimum 5k in it.

Website ah. I shall look into this. Was also thinking going old school with leaflets.

Hi, I started out on my own this year too and have set up a business account with Starling. It doesn't charge any fees and so far has been super simple to use.

Also, I have had a couple of friends that have also stated out and they have recommended using a service such as 'Quickbooks' to mansge invoices, expenses etc. I haven't commited to that yet, but I might in the near future

Having read this thread, I will be looking into getting an accountant too, as I think they will help me get the best result when declaring my tax

Good Luck and keep the thread updated with your progress

John

[Devonian]

I went self employed at 23 and now in my 29th year. Like everyone self employed I could lists hundreds of do’s and don’ts, pro’s and con’s etc. All I’ll say is the one thing my old boss said to me that I’ve never forgotten.

‘You’ve got choice and choice is killing you’.

What he meant was that being self employed everything is your choice. You have the choice to put in full days, just as you have the choice to slope off at lunchtime everyday of the week. S/E doesn’t suit everyone. If it does suit you though, you’ll never regret it.

[Dave+63]

You have to set your own standards and try as best you can to stick to them, this applies to quotes and also your working hours.

Quality work costs good money, there will always be someone who will do it cheaper and cut corners. The type of clients you want to aim for are the ones who want a good job doing not a cheap job.

Absolutely this.

Set your standards and charge accordingly. You will lose (of Esther not get) work from folk who just want cheap but they’re not your customers.

Do a good job at a fair price and you’ll pick up work through recommendations, you’ll not need to chase the price down.

There is so much demand right now that you will have plenty of work to choose from. Just don’t bite off more than you can chew!

[Bravo73]

Went to town today and went in every bank. All said you need to go online for ita business account as they know nothing about them. When I said do you actually need a business account they said it's not law but if they find out your using a normal account for business they will shut it down....! Also most of them are free.... For the first 12 months then there are charges.

https://www.starlingbank.com/business-account/

Free (and easy).

[beechcustom]

I'm not sure you need a business bank account. They usually charge you for things that are free in a personal account. I've been self employed since 2008 and I've never had one.

Definitely get an accountsnt though. Mine has been worth her fee many times over.

[SydR]

Many years ago I was self employed in IT for a number of years and used my personal account throughout; until one company refused to write a sizeable cheque in my name but put it in my trading ‘company’ name instead.

Thankfully a high street bank was going fee free business accounts in the first 12 months from opening it. I closed it again before the 12 months were out.

[Bravo73]

They usually charge you for things that are free in a personal account.

Not Starling. See above.

[learningtofly]

Not Starling. See above.

Worth looking at the comparison table on Starling's website, as there are things that they don't offer that other banks do. Horses for courses, obviously.

[demonloop]

I use Monzo and Starling for business, both do everything I need, and both are free. Both operated from my phone.

If you do go down the road of an accounts package, I’d recommend Xero. It’s flawless imo. I’ve used Sage for decades and it’s so outdated now compared to Xero

[ASW1]

Lots of good info here.

Definitely get liability/indemnity insurance.

Unless you're financially strong/interested then accountant, and seek their advice/suggestions.

Everyone will have different views on Sole Trader versus Limited Company. Given what you've said I would go Sole Trader. A lot simpler in so many ways.

Re bank account business accounts are an arse ache. I would suggest that you trade as yourself (i.e. not a trading name) and probably good to keep personal and work income/expenditure separate if possible, in which case just open a new personal account with your existing bank or another. Another might make it easier to keep separate i.e. less possible confusion of which account is which.

Consider if you want to take card payments, in which case the likes of Square and Stripe do this for microbusiness. However it feels like if you're just trading alone and local and face to face then maybe just cash and direct into bank account is all you need.

Also, consider how you will get business. A website does give some credibility but it also potentially opens you up to anyone coming to you as a customer. Do you want/need that. An alternative is that if you are good at what you do (work and customer service) then you may quickly find that you get enough work through word of mouth. Do you need more than you want/can handle - a nice problem to have, but you might get into a website, Trust a Trader etc and find it wasn't needed and it's extra work/cost to manage.

Whilst others have dissed the idea of flyers, these days old school marketing can work. Flyers, small ads in local paper, even get a profile done in local paper. Perhaps do something pro-bono for local charity/care home/club/society and get some media coverage or at least some contacts/advocates who may use/recommend you locally.

Get in touch with local business networks - online and face to face. Great for advice and maybe a source of work/leads. It might be that for a while you can do work for/with other local tradespeople if they have work they can't Handel, or don't have capacity to handle. Give and take and mutual support.

You've very useful in-demand tangible skills and modest business ambitions (I mean this in a good way...). There is no reason why you wouldn't be able to be a great success. Enjoy the process and all the very best with it.

[sprite1275]

Lots of good info here.

Definitely get liability/indemnity insurance.

Unless you're financially strong/interested then accountant, and seek their advice/suggestions.

Everyone will have different views on Sole Trader versus Limited Company. Given what you've said I would go Sole Trader. A lot simpler in so many ways.

Re bank account business accounts are an arse ache. I would suggest that you trade as yourself (i.e. not a trading name) and probably good to keep personal and work income/expenditure separate if possible, in which case just open a new personal account with your existing bank or another. Another might make it easier to keep separate i.e. less possible confusion of which account is which.

Consider if you want to take card payments, in which case the likes of Square and Stripe do this for microbusiness. However it feels like if you're just trading alone and local and face to face then maybe just cash and direct into bank account is all you need.

Also, consider how you will get business. A website does give some credibility but it also potentially opens you up to anyone coming to you as a customer. Do you want/need that. An alternative is that if you are good at what you do (work and customer service) then you may quickly find that you get enough work through word of mouth. Do you need more than you want/can handle - a nice problem to have, but you might get into a website, Trust a Trader etc and find it wasn't needed and it's extra work/cost to manage.

Whilst others have dissed the idea of flyers, these days old school marketing can work. Flyers, small ads in local paper, even get a profile done in local paper. Perhaps do something pro-bono for local charity/care home/club/society and get some media coverage or at least some contacts/advocates who may use/recommend you locally.

Get in touch with local business networks - online and face to face. Great for advice and maybe a source of work/leads. It might be that for a while you can do work for/with other local tradespeople if they have work they can't Handel, or don't have capacity to handle. Give and take and mutual support.

You've very useful in-demand tangible skills and modest business ambitions (I mean this in a good way...). There is no reason why you wouldn't be able to be a great success. Enjoy the process and all the very best with it.

Thanks for this post mate its pretty much what i was thinking to start with. Not that any of the other advice is not helpful. I shall start off this way and if needs be look into websites, business accounts etc.

Oh and if anyone knows of a decent cheap van for sale please let me know.

[ASW1]

Thanks for this post mate its pretty much what i was thinking to start with. Not that any of the other advice is not helpful. I shall start off this way and if needs be look into websites, business accounts etc.

Oh and if anyone knows of a decent cheap van for sale please let me know.

Just noticed my composer typo "Handle" :)

Wishing you every success.

[Bravo73]

Oh and if anyone knows of a decent cheap van for sale please let me know.

Unfortunately, you’ve picked the wrong time to buy a secondhand van. It might be decent but it won’t be cheap (or vice versa).

[bigweb]

I'll second Tide.
I've had a few businesses and setting up with them was by far the easiest and their fees are not bad either....


Cheers,

Adam.

Tide were great for us when setting up but there have been a few problems as we have grown. The name check procedure has started coming up more often when bigger businesses have tried to send us money.
Also getting payments from abroad is near impossible due to no SWIFT/IBAN and the bank card is also a pre-pay card so some places like google won't accept it.

Their invoicing system and support is excellent when you are starting out though.

If the above doesn't affect your industry then they are a really good option.

[mk1974]

Decent cheap vans don’t exist really,there usually decent at a decent price,if it’s cheap it’s cheap cos it’s had it .
Ideally you want to find one that’s going to get traded by a mates mate ,you probably know this ,I started off with an estate car,easier to find a decent one .


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[Michael 38]

Decent cheap vans don’t exist really,there usually decent at a decent price,if it’s cheap it’s cheap cos it’s had it .
Ideally you want to find one that’s going to get traded by a mates mate ,you probably know this ,I started off with an estate car,easier to find a decent one .


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My mrs nephew makes furniture out of old scaffold boards and spent months looking for a reasonable priced van and ended up buying and old Ford galaxy to cart his stuff around in instead due to the stupid prices being asked for pieces of crap