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Thread: Green laning... Grrr.

  1. #1
    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Green laning... Grrr.

    Here's a story that (perhaps) has to do with the limited size of our country and doesn't apply to the UK.

    I own a piece of land, with on the right side (N-S) a rural road, a dirt road. The total length of this road is about 400m. The first 50m are owned by the council, 150m (or a little more) by me and the other part by my neighbour who has his land south of my land.

    Normally, the road is used by horse riders, cyclists, dog walkers etc, Only local people. There's no sign that says that the road is private. Last Saturday, there was a LandCruiser on the road, driving slowly. I spotted them while cutting the grass and noticed that these people were not local. I also noticed that they had a bunch of papers on the dash. So I stopped them and asked if they were lost or something like that. Their answer: "No, we're doing a green laning trip today!". (I'd never heard about green laning). It turned out that a company with their 'HQ' 150km to the west had plotted a route for people who'd paid big money for a trip on dirt roads! I asked if they were aware that they were on private land. They were not - and they felt sorry about that. That was clear. I asked them how many cars were participating: "25 today, the first time after Covid!" And they gave me a phone number.

    I called the number (the organization) and told them what I'd heard and seen only a few moments earlier. Lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' and it boiled down to: "They're driving now, we cannot change the route now!" I understood that this is a problem but not my problem! I told them to get over here straight away to arrange a de-tour.

    Guess what, no organization car showed up. (No, I was not amazed).

    So put one of my trailers on the road with a sign: Private Road, No Green Laning! That caused some problems with the cars that turned up! And a little roadblock/traffic jam as well (they formed their own roadblock ;-) ). 100% of the attendees I spoke, were very polite and understood that driving on a private road was not what they wanted (I admit that my Rottweiler was barking like mad on my side of the fence. He couldn't get out, but that may have changed their perspective a little).

    On a day like Saturday, this whole trip on my road is not so worrying. The path is bone-dry. But as I found out, this road is part of a route that one can 'buy' form the organisation for a trip. And, owning a 4x4 myself, things get interesting when there's mud and sand and soil and water... I don't want a herd of 4x4s in November or when there's snow! Then, I'm left behind with a road that needs to be fixed.

    So, on Monday I called again and asked why no-one had shown up. A vague answer was all that I got. Then I asked about a change of the route book for the next edition - making sure that #59 and #60 in the roadblock are NOT on my path. Again a vague answer was all I got. And when I asked if I could send them the bill of fixing my road, the answer was "NO".

    I was thinking: I need a proper sign or I need a lawyer, but then I realized that there's a bigger hammer to swing! The City Council!

    On their website, the organization claims 65% of all roads are dirt roads. So I called City Hall and asked for the person in charge of dirt road maintenance. Within seconds I was able to tell the story. And I emphasized that my part is only 150m but the City Council's part of the tour is much bigger. That landed. This civil servant took hook, line and sinker. He made some calls if there was any form of permit that was issued (mandatory for rally-like trips). There was no permit issued. So, he said: "I'll take it from here! We don't want this green laning on our roads. Dust and mud and it will cost us tons of money to get the roads repaired. It's simple. We're going to enforce this legally when it happens again. And the fines are high!"

    What bugs me the most is the absolutely below-zero mentality of the people of the organization.
    Last edited by thieuster; 22nd September 2021 at 23:45.

  2. #2
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Here's a story that (perhaps) has to do with the limited size of our country and doesn't apply to the UK.
    [...]
    There's no sign that says that the road is private. Last Saturday, there was a LandCruiser on the road, driving slowly. I spotted them while cutting the grass and noticed that these people were not local. I also noticed that they had a bunch of papers on the dash. So I stopped them and asked if they were lost or something like that. Their answer: "No, we're doing a green laning trip today!". (I'd never heard about green laning).
    [...]
    I asked if they were aware that they were on private land.
    I think it's a little different in the UK. The UK has a concept of "public rights of way". These are not necessarily surfaced roads (mostly not). Public rights of way can be subdivided into "public footpaths", "bridleways", "byways open to all traffic" (BOAT), and perhaps others I don't recall. Each type has different transport mode access rights: Some are for foot traffic only, some for horses, some for bicycles, some for powered vehicles. Detailed laws on these matters may also differ between England/Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    The key point of a "public right of way" is that, even where it is on private land, the public (whether local or not) have a right of access to pass and re-pass by whatever mode(s) of transport are applicable to that public right of way.

    And so, if your private lane was in the UK and was a public right of way such as a BOAT, then you'd have no legal grounds to refuse access to the green laners.

    Green laning is a popular thing in the UK and it does often cause conflict between land owners, so-called "local" people, and non-local green laners.

    Unhappy land owners have been known to unlawfully block rights of way where they cross their land. If this occurs then users of the right of ways are entitled to remove blockages, even when on private property.

    Then there are accusations of damage to green lanes by excessive vehicular usage. However, recreational green laners often point out that a lot of damage is caused by farmers using tractors on the sensitive green lanes or even by livestock, and not by their carefully driven 4x4s.

    There is also the issue of inappropriate use of green lanes. For example, riding horses on a "public footpath" (which should be for human foot traffic only) or driving motor vehicles on a "bridleway" (which should be for human foot traffic, bicycles and horses only). Furthermore, conversely, because public rights of way are usually on privately owned land, the land owner can do what they want on it (as long as they do not block the right of way): Thus the land owner (or those people he or she authorises) may well legitimately, say, drive motor vehicles on a footpath or bridleway.

    There is also the issue of green laning in very large numbers or driving too hard for the conditions. Plainly, even where access is legal, this can damage the surface of the green lane (which, as the name suggests, will usually be grass, soil, mud, gravel, etc.).

    Lastly, I see no point paying an organisation large sums of money to be given a route that you could work out yourself, especially if your country has a similar concept to public rights of way (does it?). If your country doesn't have such a legal concept then the key function of such an organisation (which would justify their fees) should surely be to obtain permission from landowners such as yourself and to share with you some of the money they take in so as to pay for upkeep of the lane. People should obviously not trespass on private property that is not some form of public right of way.

    In parallel I should mention that in some countries there are also 'public access to countryside' laws ('right to roam'). I think Scotland and also England/Wales have such laws nowadays, although I'm not up to date on it. These cover public access to large swathes of countryside, most of it privately owned. However, to the best of my knowledge, these do not give vehicular access rights; they are only about pedestrian access. Also these laws are relatively new and do not, as far as I know, supersede public rights of way where they exist.

    If it sounds as if having public rights of way on your land can be a nuisance, I think that might be true. I used to live in south Wales and the valley I lived in was crisscrossed with rights of way, mostly footpaths. There was (still is) a fairly remote farm house that had several public footpaths all converge in its yard! It's not like the footpaths were ever very busy (I never saw anyone else on them despite walking a lot at the time) but, all the same, it would bug me if I lived there and knew that, in principle, strangers could legitimately turn up in my front yard at any time of the day or night.

    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    What bugs me the most is the absolutely below-zero mentality of the people of the organization.
    Absolutely! They are taking money for using your land. As I note above, if they want to take money then, in order to earn it, they should be gaining the permission of landowners and sharing some of that money with you to offset any damage or needed upkeep.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 23rd September 2021 at 10:50.

  3. #3
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    What country are you in? Doesn't say (or I missed it)

  4. #4
    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Furthermore, conversely, because public rights of way are usually on privately owned land, the land owner can do what they want on it (as long as they do not block the right of way): Thus the land owner (or those people he or she authorises) may well legitimately, say, drive motor vehicles on a footpath or bridleway.
    ^^^
    This point is often forgotten by some of the more 'self-righteous' walkers who take it upon themselves to become 'footpath police' when seeing a horse rider on a public foothpath. My wife has permission to ride her horses around all of our neighbours land, but has in the past been challenged by tourists walking on the public footpaths.

  5. #5
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Similar thing is happening local to me where the council set up a cycle path only for it to just come to light that said cycle path is on non-council road! (for anyone in the UK the area in question is Skerne Walk in Kingston which joins Skerne Road and Lower Ham Road and actually bisects a residential area where one/some of the residents actually own the bit of land the road is on). As this is part of a major cycle highway I suspect it's going to cause some issues or the Council are going to have to fork out £££ to buy the land

  6. #6
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Similar thing is happening local to me where the council set up a cycle path only for it to just come to light that said cycle path is on non-council road! (for anyone in the UK the area in question is Skerne Walk in Kingston which joins Skerne Road and Lower Ham Road and actually bisects a residential area where one/some of the residents actually own the bit of land the road is on). As this is part of a major cycle highway I suspect it's going to cause some issues or the Council are going to have to fork out £££ to buy the land
    Green laneing in 4x4's with mud/muck and hairy arsed grumpy men is not similar to a cycle route frequented by hipsters in central London..

  7. #7
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Everyone likes the 'right to roam'. Until people show up on their property.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

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