Builder dispute advise needed please

[seikoking]

We have recently had a veranda installed and we were left disappointed with a few elements of the install and the final result.

Aside from leaving the whole garden area covered in aluminium swarf and the installation team repeatedly climbing on top of our hot tub resulting in damage to the insulated cover, the worst problem was an ill fitting foot on one of the support legs…



We have raised the concerns to the company but they are not willing accept responsibility (yet at least) and instead are saying the leg is positioned where we asked for it. We had asked for the position to be as far as possible to the right in the picture but were never advised that this would leave the base overhanging the paving and requiring the plate to be drilled with new holes to allow four fixing points. Surely it’s fair for us to assume a base plate with a fixing point in each corner would not end up in this position? They are supposed to be the professionals.

The company have offered to come back to reposition but are quoting £750 as it would involve complete dismantling and rebuilding. Obviously this will then expose all the existing fixing holes and would only compound the problem. So it’s not really a viable option.

As it stands we have paid 50% of the total cost as the arrangement was the remainder was on completion.

What do you think? Are we being unreasonable to expect this to be sorted before paying? Any ideas for a fair resolution? Any other pointers or guidance would be massive help too.

Thanks in advance guys.


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[EchoSevenNine]

That's a simple one, Sir.

That support leg has 6 fixing points and only 4 have been utilized, therefor should any damage occur to the structure, the manufacturers will not stand over it due to improper fitting.

Theres a few grey ares with that but for the most part, that's what id be going with.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a simple one, Sir.

That support leg has 6 fixing points and only 4 have been utilized, therefor should any damage occur to the structure, the manufacturers will not stand over it due to improper fitting.

There's a few grey areas with that but for the most part, that's what id be going with.

[Dave+63]

As you have only paid 50% so far, you are within your rights to refuse to pay the other 50% until such time as you are satisfied with the installation.

Keep everything in writing though as it may end up going to the Small Claims Court.

[RustyBin5]

That's a simple one, Sir.

That support leg has 6 fixing points and only 4 have been utilized, therefor should any damage occur to the structure, the manufacturers will not stand over it due to improper fitting.

Theres a few grey ares with that but for the most part, that's what id be going with.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a simple one, Sir.

That support leg has 6 fixing points and only 4 have been utilized, therefor should any damage occur to the structure, the manufacturers will not stand over it due to improper fitting.

There's a few grey areas with that but for the most part, that's what id be going with.

Actually I think that it has 4 fixing points. The one that looks central is off central actually which leads me to believe it was drilled to allow a fixing point onto the flagstone because they messed up and had the actual fixing point miss it’s mark and end up over the gravel instead.

Question I’d be asking the manufacturer (not the builder) is whether doing this alteration of the fixing point has ANY impact on the structural integrity of the steel pillar. If it does then take that info back to the contractor as it will be irrefutable then.

[seikoking]

Actually I think that it has 4 fixing points. The one that looks central is off central actually which leads me to believe it was drilled to allow a fixing point onto the flagstone because they messed up and had the actual fixing point miss it’s mark and end up over the gravel instead.

Question I’d be asking the manufacturer (not the builder) is whether doing this alteration of the fixing point has ANY impact on the structural integrity of the steel pillar. If it does then take that info back to the contractor as it will be irrefutable then.

Thats correct. As manufactured, the base plate had 4 holes, one in each corner. The ones in the centre (ish) have been drilled by the installer.

So far most communication has been in writing, so that side is ok.

Really appreciate the quick responses so far. Thanks 🙏

[noidea]

I think I would be more concerned that it looks like they have fixed it to a slab. Have they drilled through the slab into a solid concrete pad? The fact it overhangs makes it even worse. It wouldn't take much for that slab to crack. They are not very strong.
Also just spotted the two extra holes, one looks to have been filled. So it looks like they got something wrong and had to reposition.

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[Estoril-5]

Is it possible to see the overall picture?

Also, did you provide the structure or was it supplied and installed by the builders?

I wouldnt be happy with that, however, if you said as far as possible they can argue they did what you said. Being a 'professional' they should have mentioned that it will overhang.

Edit: also looks like they have mis-located a hole they have drilled - have they said anything about that?

[Onelasttime]

A couple of years' worth of summer heat and winter cold, rain and snow, should see that slab crack like a good 'un, allowing the support to shift, weakening the whole structure and making it dangerously unsafe. What a bodge.

As someone else said, go to the manufacturers and ask them if this is an acceptable fitting fix for their structure. Please post their reply because I imagine it will be forthright.

[Barry]

Seikoking,

I feel for you, there is no way that is acceptable.
The veranda frame should be square and bolted down onto suitable pads or a full slab, where the legs fall is fixed and the pad or slab should be fully underneath all four legs and all four bolt holes of those legs.

It also looks like the leg is pissed and not straight, if it was straight I suspect it will be even further to right of the slab.

[Sinnlover]

OP first and foremost that is a cowboy bodge job. Not acceptable at all.
Did you ask them to move the post when they were erecting or did the original spec / drawings show the post in that location? If the latter that should have taken this in to account when casting the bases. (Although it does not look like there is a base)

I think I would be more concerned that it looks like they have fixed it to a slab. Have they drilled through the slab into a solid concrete pad? The fact it overhangs makes it even worse. It wouldn't take much for that slab to crack. They are not very strong.
Also just spotted the two extra holes, one looks to have been filled. So it looks like they got something wrong and had to reposition.

Spot on.
They have drilled through the slab (there is a hole) and then moved the post.
If the pillar is only fixed to the slab I would question the structural integrity of the whole build. The slab will crack, especially now it’s open to the elements (the holes) with freeze thaw, any potential snow load needs to be considered as well.
All in all it’s a bodge job.

[Paneraiseeker]

I would of thought a concrete base of around 600mm would have been needed as a foundation not just fixing onto a slab.

[blackal]

THey should have removed the slab, and dug out a foundation for concrete, then relaid the slab on top of that with a cement/epoxy grout.

Then when that is fixed - drill through into the concrete, and fix with chemical resin bolts (so as to cause no expansion).

I did all that with a fairly lightweight gazebo, never mind a heavy veranda which supports a couple of hundred kilos.

That's a crap job they have done, from what I can see.

[Stonewood]

I would never fix down into a patio slab UNLESS there is a solid concrete pad underneath the slab? If all four posts are only secured to the patio slabs then this is VERY weak - the slab will lift or crack.


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[seikoking]

I have sent a message off to the manufacturer. Fortunately the installer had accidentally included on a previous email to them whilst we were still at enquiry stage. Without that we might have struggled to find the maker.

I will update with a response when I have it.

Thanks all

[Sweepinghand]

Everything on writing
Keep any texts
All your letters to them by recorded delivery
Small claims court if needed for unsafe complete structure


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[wildheart]

Who did the Building Control for this work? No Local Authority BCO worth his salt would sign this off.

[manganr]

THey should have removed the slab, and dug out a foundation for concrete, then relaid the slab on top of that with a cement/epoxy grout.

Then when that is fixed - drill through into the concrete, and fix with chemical resin bolts (so as to cause no expansion).

I did all that with a fairly lightweight gazebo, never mind a heavy veranda which supports a couple of hundred kilos.

That's a crap job they have done, from what I can see.

Thats my take on it too.

Tell them you'll pay for an independent condtruction based arbiter to assess the work before taking it further through the court. Definitely don't pay another penny. That is just poor and sub standard work.

[Dave+63]

I think all this talk of concrete slabs is a little OTT if I’m correct in thinking it’s something like this one.

I haven’t bolted mine down as it’s less likely to get damaged in the strong winds if it can move a bit.



Having said that, if it’s bolted down then it should be fine properly.

[ViperStripes]

If we presume there is a concrete pad under the slab, you haven't said either way yet. Then surely if you can put in a bigger slab under the footing, presuming all the other footings are fine, then that's a fix?

Needs a bigger picture showing the whole thing I think.

[seikoking]

The slabs are concreted down but not to a great depth and not to the extent I would describe as being foundations. Is there a recommended depth of concrete?

I’m having a mare trying to load any other pics at the moment (Tapatalk is only allowing me access to one image and you’ve that one!). I’ll figure it out and post a full image as soon as I can.

[blackal]

I think all this talk of concrete slabs is a little OTT if I’m correct in thinking it’s something like this one.

I haven’t bolted mine down as it’s less likely to get damaged in the strong winds if it can move a bit.



Having said that, if it’s bolted down then it should be fine properly.

I'd have thought a strong wind would lift that whole gazebo? Notice that the OP has drainage running down one leg of his, and as it is a load-bearing veranda - to not bolt it down would be remiss.

[Dave+63]

I'd have thought a strong wind would lift that whole gazebo? Notice that the OP has drainage running down one leg of his, and as it is a load-bearing veranda - to not bolt it down would be remiss.

In my case, the wind would blow it against the garage wall and fence so it works best for me to not bolt down.

In the OP’s case, the leg looks thicker and bolting it down is probably the preferred solution. I’d like to see a picture of the full structure to be certain though.

My point was, concrete foundation pads may be overkill for this structure but without seeing the whole thing, it’s difficult to tell.

Whatever though, the builder should have done it properly.

[Chukas]

Don’t pay another penny until you get it sorted as you want it.
How they even think that is acceptable is beyond me, terrible workmanship and attitude to even do it.

[AdmiralNilsson]

I would be concerned that one of the bolts looks to have started to rust already - on top of all the other points above..


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[seikoking]

Sorry for the delay. Here is a picture of the complete canopy.


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[Barry]

A decent size that👍🏻

It looks to be manufactured by someone who will have installation instructions. The builder should be following these.

All three supports need a proper base, and appropriate resin anchors.

[blackal]

Sorry, when you said 'veranda' it conjured up the image of a load bearing structure -that's more a 'pergola'

Why didn't they site it to have the last post ON the paving stones?

I still think it should have been set into concrete tubs with stainless bolts for chemical resin, through the pavings

[mk1974]

Pathetic really,it’s not like your tight for space,can easily move across,just don’t pay them the remainder.


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[Franky Four Fingers]

Surely, there must be a reason why they didn’t place the base flush on the slab, is it to do with the house wall fixings?
Perhaps there is something on the wall that they can’t screw in to, there appears to be a white vent? A few inches to the left wouldn’t make much difference which makes it baffling. There’s got to be a reason they’d do this.

[EchoSevenNine]

Sorry for the delay. Here is a picture of the complete canopy.


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If those slabs are bedded in mortar and unless there's exceptionally high winds, that thing is going nowhere in my opinion.

It looks reasonably well fitted from what I can see but there has most definately been a mis calculation to site that last leg.

It's clearly not fixed properly and I don't see how anyone, court or otherwise, could argue with that.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

It's a poor job done badly - I would press for a solution you are happy with.

[seikoking]

Thanks all. The feedback is genuinely useful.

The manufacturer (trade only and will not deal with an end user) has not responded to me but instead has informed the installer I’ve been in touch. It’s not their argument I suppose so I can understand that. However it prompted a response from the installer. I didn’t reply to that message (not by choice but just didn’t get the chance) and I have recently received a further message saying that they have an idea for a solution and will be in touch.

Hopefully the solution they offer will be suitable 🤞

[Kingstepper]

Looks like it was planned to align RHS with door frame. Part-way over that door wouldn't look so neat IMO (though wouldn't overhang by much and likely not noticeable if moved by few inches), who measured for it?
Best solution might be to put down new narrow slab rather than moving the whole thing over now, leaving holes in patio and wall or structure. Still need room for soak-away though...

[JonRA]

Looks like it was planned to align RHS with door frame. Part-way over that door wouldn't look so neat IMO (though wouldn't overhang by much and likely not noticeable if moved by few inches), who measured for it?

Was going to say the same thing. Maybe the soakaway edge isn't exactly 90 degrees to the wall and that's where a measurement issue could have arisen from?

[Mr G Imp]

Looks like they did what you asked - fitted the post as far to the left as possible, in reality that lean to structure won’t fall over or be structurally compromised.

They climbed on your hot tub because that’s the only way they could get to the wall above it.

[M1011]

Looks like they did what you asked - fitted the post as far to the left as possible, in reality that lean to structure won’t fall over or be structurally compromised.

They climbed on your hot tub because that’s the only way they could get to the wall above it.

You surely don't genuinely think they were deliberately aiming for that end result..?

[AlphaOmega]

Looks like they did what you asked - fitted the post as far to the left as possible, in reality that lean to structure won’t fall over or be structurally compromised.

They climbed on your hot tub because that’s the only way they could get to the wall above it.

The underlying issue here is that any decent contractor would not leave a job like this. And if they were following the customer's instructions they would make it clear what the downside would be rather than just going ahead.

[seikoking]

The underlying issue here is that any decent contractor would not leave a job like this. And if they were following the customer's instructions they would make it clear what the downside would be rather than just going ahead.

They had initially positioned the post completely on the slab and moved at the end of the install to the position you see here. It appears the measurement they made did not account for the width of the base plate and instead was taken to outer sides of the leg posts themselves. When everything was squared up at the end, the left leg was off plumb and it seems the easiest solution was taken rather than a proper one.

[Mr G Imp]

I’m guessing you can’t put a slab/ concrete in to the fence due to the drainage? It definitely looks rough how it’s been left and the builders took a chance on you not noticing or complaining

[oldoakknives]

Looks like they did what you asked - fitted the post as far to the left as possible, in reality that lean to structure won’t fall over or be structurally compromised.

They climbed on your hot tub because that’s the only way they could get to the wall above it.

Sorry but that's rubbish. There are combination ladders and methods to bridge that hot tub.

The lift generated by strong winds would lift a slab and the structure no problem. Usual 'tradesmen' job I'm afraid.

[southerner101]

That base plait would bug me also. I’d be tempted to cut that over hanging part of the base plate off providing the upright was square with the slab.

[Mr G Imp]

Sorry but that's rubbish. There are combination ladders and methods to bridge that hot tub.

The lift generated by strong winds would lift a slab and the structure no problem. Usual 'tradesmen' job I'm afraid.

I wasn’t saying it was ok they did it, just that they climbed on the hot tub lid to access the wall above.

With the base plate, it’s not ok but highly unlikely to blow away. It just looks like a bodge/compromise in my opinion, but putting a new slab in under the two holes on the right or moving it over a few inches will do very little to improve the structural integrity.

Should be sorted one way or another as it will annoy the OP every time he looks at it !

[Mr G Imp]

They could replace the leg with one that’s not been drilled/bodged and add a new matching slab in where the gravel is to support it. (Free of charge) or they could move the whole thing over free of charge.

Or you could refuse to pay them the remainder and get a recommended local tradesman in to sort it.

[Kingstepper]

Sorry but that's rubbish. There are combination ladders and methods to bridge that hot tub.

The lift generated by strong winds would lift a slab and the structure no problem. Usual 'tradesmen' job I'm afraid.

To be fair, if there wasn’t the overhang the OP probably wouldn’t have posted and wouldn’t be concerned about the structural integrity. We don’t even know if it’s bolted through to the sub-base.

[Mr G Imp]

To be fair, if there wasn’t the overhang the OP probably wouldn’t have posted and wouldn’t be concerned about the structural integrity. We don’t even know if it’s bolted through to the sub-base.

There might not even be a solid sub base, slabs could be sat on compacted sharp sand.

[seikoking]

The slabs are concreted down and the posts bolted through. It doesn’t look like there is any chemical type anchor been used though (not sure if it is easy to check?) but the plan did stipulate. I’ll check this with the installers.

We asked the install team if the hot tub needed to be moved and were told they could “work round it no problem”. We also accommodated a last minute cancellation for them, literally 5:30pm the day before, so didn’t have chance to drain and move the tub before hand. If they wanted to stand on the tub for access, All it would have taken was a board to be placed on top and a polite request beforehand. Neither of those things happened.

The chap we have been in contact with has not seen the finished install in the flesh, so we have invited him out to look and discuss possible routes forward.

I see only 2 real options that would be acceptable really…

1 - lay some additional part slabs the full depth of the patio. I would also expect a replacement base plate (they do appear to be removable for the leg ie it is not welded but has some form of internal fixing mechanism) to allow correct fixing in the 4 corners.

2 - reduction in the size of the left most glazing section in the roof, with cuts to frame work accordingly, to allow the leg to me moved back to the position it was initially and fully seated in the existing paving stone. Basically this is shortening the whole structure by about 30mm. I’m not 100% sure on the feasibility of this but if it were possible, Again I’d expect new base plate to be provided.

I would also think it’s reasonable to expect these to be complete without additional charge to us?

Does this sound reasonable do you think?

[Mj2k]

I am far from an expert, but share a hatred when tradesmen screw up things through incompetence or laziness, Last time we had unknown ones in, we took ages getting it all sorted & hated it (a kitchen) as a result.

Based on your options posted above, I'd agree on them being the things right for you in this case. Much as I don't like the half slab idea, based on performance so far, I would rather get them doing this than cutting the frame.

We have a new kitchen going in starting in 2-3 weeks and am nervous already, despite now using a bespoke company and spending stupid amounts. Good news is the company are friends of the father in law, and we have seen their work in their kitchen, so hoping for plain sailing here.

Good luck with the chat to them.

[Rodder]

I’m guessing you can’t put a slab/ concrete in to the fence due to the drainage? It definitely looks rough how it’s been left and the builders took a chance on you not noticing or complaining

I’d imagine there’s a way of routing the pipe further into the garden, possibly buried if necessary

[Weirdfish]

I've only had a very quick read through, so apologies if this has already been covered.
Was it originally specced to be fitted to patio slabs, nothing about concrete plinths etc. not so much because of the weight as these structures weigh very little nowadays, but more to do with anchorage, a good strong wind and I would be worried that you'll probably be looking for your structure over next door.
If it were me then I would insist on decent plinths to secure it to, even if these were covered with matching slabs, and the end leg that has been re-drilled could quite easily be cut down to get rid of those extra 2 holes, but still do it's job.
You are in the best possible position though as you have't paid the full costs yet, and if the original contractor won't return and complete to your satisfaction then just get someone in that will do it and pay them out of the remainder you have held back.

[M1011]

The slabs are concreted down and the posts bolted through. It doesn’t look like there is any chemical type anchor been used though (not sure if it is easy to check?) but the plan did stipulate. I’ll check this with the installers.

We asked the install team if the hot tub needed to be moved and were told they could “work round it no problem”. We also accommodated a last minute cancellation for them, literally 5:30pm the day before, so didn’t have chance to drain and move the tub before hand. If they wanted to stand on the tub for access, All it would have taken was a board to be placed on top and a polite request beforehand. Neither of those things happened.

The chap we have been in contact with has not seen the finished install in the flesh, so we have invited him out to look and discuss possible routes forward.

I see only 2 real options that would acceptable really…

1 - lay some additional part slabs the full depth of the patio. I would also expect a replacement base plate (they do appear to be removable for the leg ie it is not welded but has some form of internal fixing mechanism) to allow correct fixing in the 4 corners.

2 - reduction in the size of the left most glazing section in the roof, with cuts to frame work accordingly, to allow the leg to me moved back to the position it was initially and fully seated in the existing paving stone. Basically this is shortening the whole structure by about 30mm. I’m not 100% sure on the feasibility of this but if it were possible, Again I’d expect new base plate to be provided.

I would also think it’s reasonable to expect these to be complete without additional charge to us?

Does this sound reasonable do you think?

I wonder if you're being too reasonable. At the end of the day they did a half arsed job and damaged your hot-tub. I'd figure out the cost of fixing/replacing the cover and that immediately comes off the outstanding bill. Then I'd think about what's an acceptable outcome, I don't think them cutting up the structure to shorten it would be acceptable to me personally. Perhaps option 1, and certainly I wouldn't pay extra for it.