Energy costs up by £425

[Kingstepper]

That article is being posted and talked about a lot this morning, I guess the RAC are trying to lobby whoever might be listening to intervene?

Mind you, I still can’t get anywhere near the cost of running a comparable ICE to either of our EVs. We have an unremarkable tariff, 7 hours overnight at 17p per kWh (likely rising to just over 30p from October) so let’s call it 10p per mile in electricity at a very pessimistic 3 miles per kWh.

I’m not sure a car with the performance of our Tesla or the load carrying capacity of the ID.4 would do even 45mpg routinely, so I make that 17p ish per mile for petrol or diesel at £1.70p a litre.

It’s only when you exclusively use the cost of public rapid charging in the calculation that pence per mile overtakes fossil fuel.

Either of our EVs can do 250 miles on a charge so it would have to be a very long trip before we needed to use a public rapid charger at 55-60p per kWh. I do have the option of charging at 25p per kWh on Ionity chargers, a deal that came with the car, but they’re not everywhere.

It depends if you switched to electric to save money though I suppose, personally I didn’t, but can see how angry folks might be if they did, especially if you can’t charge at home.

Why should the Government intervene?

EV owners are already at an advantage w/o road tax and fuel duty.

[Tooks]

Why should the Government intervene?

EV owners are already at an advantage w/o road tax and fuel duty.

Where did I say they should? I was offering it as an explanation for RAC coming up with a story that is actually factually incorrect anyway.

I pay 5% VAT on electricity for charging at home and 20% whilst public charging, that’s hundreds per year.

I paid at least £3k extra in VAT versus a comparable ICE vehicle at purchase, that’s equivalent to duty on 5000 litres of petrol, so I reckon that covered around 44k miles worth of equivalent fuel duty before I started.

Whilst EVs are at present zero VED, many ICE cars are running around paying zero VED as well.

It’s not quite the uneven playing field you think it is, and please let’s not make this another ‘EV vs ICE’ thread, we’re all up a creek without a paddle to some extent right now.

[stuie-t]

I just renewed our fixed rate for electric with Octopus Go last week, 7.5p/kWh 00:30-4:30 and 39p/kWh at other times. A big jump from the 5p/15p that we were paying but bearable, as we have also managed to get our usage down by about 40% compared with last year. We have 2 EVs and just charge at night so it still works out very cost effective. A full charge on my E-tron works out at £6.20.
We have been very lucky with our gas supply as I signed up for a 2 year fix with OVO last September at 3.7p/kWh. We will use the money saved to make the house more energy efficient for when the inevitable increase comes next year.


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[benny.c]

I've seen this doing the rounds but not sure where they are getting their figures from; an equivalent performance (marginally slower) F-Pace to I-Pace would be a P400 which does 28.8mpg with a tank size of 69l. A full tank at £1.70 per litre would be £117 for 430 miles (I think).

An I-Pace doing 290 miles on a full charge at the new cap would be £47 based on 52 per kWh and a 7kWh charger. 430 miles would be £69.

I have no doubt the realistic mileage and mpg for both is much less.

Many people including myself have an EV tariff, which at the moment (for me) is 7.5p per kWh off-peak, which means the full charge would cost £6.75, no doubt that available tariff will change in the next week or so but unlikely nowhere near the cap.

I haven’t seen the actual RAC guesstimate but I assume they’ve based the EV figures on public chargers that will be much higher than the 45p/kWh ish average cost now. The ICE figures definitely seem odd - I reckon our little petrol Up! could just about manage it.

[Kingstepper]

Where did I say they should? I was offering it as an explanation for RAC coming up with a story that is actually factually incorrect anyway.

I pay 5% VAT on electricity for charging at home and 20% whilst public charging, that’s hundreds per year.

I paid at least £3k extra in VAT versus a comparable ICE vehicle at purchase, that’s equivalent to duty on 5000 litres of petrol, so I reckon that covered around 44k miles worth of equivalent fuel duty before I started.

Whilst EVs are at present zero VED, many ICE cars are running around paying zero VED as well.

It’s not quite the uneven playing field you think it is, and please let’s not make this another ‘EV vs ICE’ thread, we’re all up a creek without a paddle to some extent right now.

Where did I say you said they should?

[Tooks]

I just renewed our fixed rate for electric with Octopus Go last week, 7.5p/kWh 00:30-4:30 and 39p/kWh at other times. A big jump from the 5p/15p that we were paying but bearable, as we have also managed to get our usage down by about 40% compared with last year. We have 2 EVs and just charge at night so it still works out very cost effective. A full charge on my E-tron works out at £6.20.
We have been very lucky with our gas supply as I signed up for a 2 year fix with OVO last September at 3.7p/kWh. We will use the money saved to make the house more energy efficient for when the inevitable increase comes next year.


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We don’t have any gas supply to the village, so don’t have to worry about that, but I could do with a tariff like your Octopus Go one, although I believe you need a smart meter to get it? Smart meters are another bone of contention, they won’t install one at our property as there’s no reliable 3G/4G signal, can they not use our wifi to connect?

85-90% of our electricity usage is on the cars, so a cheap off peak time slot even only 4 hours long would work I think.

[zippy]

We don’t have any gas supply to the village, so don’t have to worry about that, but I could do with a tariff like your Octopus Go one, although I believe you need a smart meter to get it? Smart meters are another bone of contention, they won’t install one at our property as there’s no reliable 3G/4G signal, can they not use our wifi to connect?

85-90% of our electricity usage is on the cars, so a cheap off peak time slot even only 4 hours long would work I think.

I'm on the Octopus Go tariff. IIRC they checked there and then during the call they could connect up to my smart meter. Another thing to consider is that The Go tariff reads your meter every 30 mins.

[lewie]

I’ve just had an email from octopus saying my meter needs changing as it approaches the end of its certification period
They ‘say’ they can’t replace it like for like - not sure I believe this

[Middo]

I’ve just had an email from octopus saying my meter needs changing as it approaches the end of its certification period
They ‘say’ they can’t replace it like for like - not sure I believe this

I didn’t realise they had a lifespan.

[lewie]

This was my electric meter

[Martylaa]

Surprised there's no one advertising a fake product which they claim to 'adjust' your meter readings to a more favourable reading for a fee...

[Kingstepper]

This was my electric meter

Those electrons can be quite corrosive.

[Middo]

I’m wondering if it’s time to invest in solar panels. I have underfloor electric heating downstairs so might be worth it in the long run.

[ryanb741]

Hopefully Element 115 technology will be released to the public and problem solved.....

[Alansmithee]

I’m wondering if it’s time to invest in solar panels. I have underfloor electric heating downstairs so might be worth it in the long run.

The numbers do make sense but if you can get them fitted before the middle of 2023...

If you have a smart meter - Loop home will take that data and show you the actual saving you would have made with solar (and with or without a battery).

[Middo]

The numbers do make sense but if you can get them fitted before the middle of 2023...

If you have a smart meter - Loop home will take that data and show you the actual saving you would have made with solar (and with or without a battery).

I will take a look at that thanks.

[Kairos]

We have had a 4kw solar array since just before the Feed In Tarriff dropped from 47.3p to 13p.... it is nowhere near paying for itself yet. At about 12 years, the inverter needed replacing, another £3500, thereby stretching the payback period another 3 years ish.... thank the Lord we have a log burner that heats the entire house and we can cook on / boil a kettle. We have bought a couple of solar lanterns too, to use to see to read or paly games by. I doubt the TV will be going on much over the winter. I shall go to the pub to watch the rugby instead, if there are any pubs that can survive of course.

I have a feeling (theory) that these energy prices are designed to make the plebs turn their heating off to help meet the Net Zero target..... the rich bods can afford all the expense dodging Tesla battery stuff, or can afford to just pay for the fuel. I know people who are working over 40 hours / week and yet cannot afford to pay the increase so far, let alone when it goes up 3x by January as predicted. There is going to be mass civil unrest unless people can afford to live a meaningful life. Sitting under a blanket in the dark is no way to live in our time.

[g40steve]

ROI is not even an argument anymore, @24p it was 8.5 yrs, @ 50p+ more like 3.5-4 & come Jan 60-70 break even sooner.
Got a couple of bad months ahead N,D,J but so far everything in the evening is free & looking forward to getting SEG payments.
Decided to get the Eddi when back in stock for the free HW.

[Alansmithee]

I have a feeling (theory) that these energy prices are designed to make the plebs turn their heating off to help meet the Net Zero target.....

It's a theory like the "hollow earth" is a theory.

[Kairos]

It's a theory like the "hollow earth" is a theory.

Discuss, in no more than 400 words. To be in by Tuesday break. Grammar and spelling will be marked....

[RobDad]

Very confused with my energy situation going forward. We live in a 6 bed detached house, built in 2000 so relatively well insulated. We’ve been paying about £150 a month on a dual fuel tariff (actually about the same for 5 years as I’ve switched suppliers etc) - we don’t keep the house all that warm, about 20c - and have wet underfloor heating plus rads on the other 2 floors which I’ve always switched off in rooms we don’t use. We do have a disabled son with a heart condition and let’s just say we wash a lot of sheets so I’m a bit worried about keeping him warm and washed!
Anyhow, the scottish power website suggests my cheapest fix is £765 a month when the current deal expires which made my eyes bulge tbh! - however, I’ve fed my details into the Martin Lewis site, given exact useage and it suggests - currently - if I switched to their standard variable tariff my monthly payments would be about £260 - still a big increase but not as staggering as £765!!
The same fixed rates of £765 offered by Scottish power also show on the Martin Lewis site. What I find amazing is that the SP app makes no suggestion of what I’d pay on their standard variable which seems very wrong to me. I hope the Martin Lewis site is correct - and it makes a bit more sense than the huge increase (bearing in mind we all know it will go up again) that the Scottish power app suggests!!


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[Tooks]

Very confused with my energy situation going forward. We live in a 6 bed detached house, built in 2000 so relatively well insulated. We’ve been paying about £150 a month on a dual fuel tariff (actually about the same for 5 years as I’ve switched suppliers etc) - we don’t keep the house all that warm, about 20c - and have wet underfloor heating plus rads on the other 2 floors which I’ve always switched off in rooms we don’t use. We do have a disabled son with a heart condition and let’s just say we wash a lot of sheets so I’m a bit worried about keeping him warm and washed!
Anyhow, the scottish power website suggests my cheapest fix is £765 a month when the current deal expires which made my eyes bulge tbh! - however, I’ve fed my details into the Martin Lewis site, given exact useage and it suggests - currently - if I switched to their standard variable tariff my monthly payments would be about £260 - still a big increase but not as staggering as £765!!
The same fixed rates of £765 offered by Scottish power also show on the Martin Lewis site. What I find amazing is that the SP app makes no suggestion of what I’d pay on their standard variable which seems very wrong to me. I hope the Martin Lewis site is correct - and it makes a bit more sense than the huge increase (bearing in mind we all know it will go up again) that the Scottish power app suggests!!


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What have been your actual energy costs over that period, as opposed to your monthly direct debit? ie have your direct debits been covering your energy usage, or do you have a big negative balance?

Whenever I hear people talk about this, there seems to be confusion around the difference between a monthly direct debit and actual bills?

It should be straightforward to calculate what your energy bills will be going forward on whatever tariff, as long as you know what energy you have been consuming.

Obviously, fixed tariffs at the moment hedge the expected costs of energy going forwards, which are projected to be much higher than they are currently, so not surprising they’re higher than the current variable tariff.

I’d say the fixed quote you’ve got now is one of ‘we don’t really want to fix you on a tariff that will lose us money, but if you insist on fixing, here is one that won’t!’…

[ernestrome]

Very confused with my energy situation going forward. We live in a 6 bed detached house, built in 2000 so relatively well insulated. ...

Sadly, unless it was built well above the code requirements, or by a very careful builder, it may not be particularly well insulated. Our 2005 house certainly isn't.

[Alansmithee]

I suspect virtually nobody here is on a pre-paid meter - those people are really going to be knacked because no way really to smooth your costs over a 12 month period (and generally they don't have the assets to do it anyway).

[Chicken Pox]

Very confused with my energy situation going forward. We live in a 6 bed detached house, built in 2000 so relatively well insulated. We’ve been paying about £150 a month on a dual fuel tariff (actually about the same for 5 years as I’ve switched suppliers etc) - we don’t keep the house all that warm, about 20c - and have wet underfloor heating plus rads on the other 2 floors which I’ve always switched off in rooms we don’t use. We do have a disabled son with a heart condition and let’s just say we wash a lot of sheets so I’m a bit worried about keeping him warm and washed!
Anyhow, the scottish power website suggests my cheapest fix is £765 a month when the current deal expires which made my eyes bulge tbh! - however, I’ve fed my details into the Martin Lewis site, given exact useage and it suggests - currently - if I switched to their standard variable tariff my monthly payments would be about £260 - still a big increase but not as staggering as £765!!
The same fixed rates of £765 offered by Scottish power also show on the Martin Lewis site. What I find amazing is that the SP app makes no suggestion of what I’d pay on their standard variable which seems very wrong to me. I hope the Martin Lewis site is correct - and it makes a bit more sense than the huge increase (bearing in mind we all know it will go up again) that the Scottish power app suggests!!


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Not sure if will help but on £180 DD Octopus variable (with some credit- says can reduce to £130) but used Octopus Crystal ball which shows nearer £300pm to smooth out as our Jan projected use is £500 alone... a bit of a change from AVRO £89pm last time around The fixed price must allow the provider some profit and risk avoidance, and I'm sure they aren't trying to capitalise on peoples fear. Do they give you a refund if there is a blackout or gas shortage?

[funkstar]

ROI is not even an argument anymore, @24p it was 8.5 yrs, @ 50p+ more like 3.5-4 & come Jan 60-70 break even sooner.
Got a couple of bad months ahead N,D,J but so far everything in the evening is free & looking forward to getting SEG payments.
Decided to get the Eddi when back in stock for the free HW.

That's not what my maths shows.

I can't see break even being under 15 years, and that's just on the elec. Doesn't cover my gas.

[vulcangascompany]

I suspect virtually nobody here is on a pre-paid meter - those people are really going to be knacked because no way really to smooth your costs over a 12 month period (and generally they don't have the assets to do it anyway).

Yes people who use cash or debit cards to make payments at the local shop have been barely mentioned by anyone (except Martin Lewis). I have a friend who does this and I am going to offer support to him in the Winter if he wants it, I know on his benefits he will be choosing to eat or heat, the increases are just too much to have any other options open to him. Its a sobering thought that he is going to have to make some very difficult decisions in 2/3 months time.

[Templogin]

I have probably mentioned it before on this forum, but when I moved into my house it had a pre-payment meter. I used it for a while, realised how expensive it was, then asked SSE to change it for a standard meter. The cost was going to be £52, which I objected to as the pre-payment meter was already here. I think that I was only working part time then, so it was quite a sum to me. I was given the choice of pay SSE £52 or be stuck with the rip off meter. I paid the money and changed supplier to Bulb within the month.

It is unsurprising in the UK that the poorest end up paying the most for their electricity.

[Alansmithee]

I haven’t seen the actual RAC guesstimate but I assume they’ve based the EV figures on public chargers that will be much higher than the 45p/kWh ish average cost now. The ICE figures definitely seem odd - I reckon our little petrol Up! could just about manage it.

The story was rubbish and the RAC was misquoted:

RAC: "To be clear. We did not say it would cost more to run an EV than a petrol car from Oct [or] provide any figs on Jaguar’s models [or] say it cost just £50 to fill a petrol car…[We're] trying to reach journalist to find out why he wrote the story the way he did."

https://twitter.com/LeoHickman/statu...50485738143744

[RobDad]

What have been your actual energy costs over that period, as opposed to your monthly direct debit? ie have your direct debits been covering your energy usage, or do you have a big negative balance?

Whenever I hear people talk about this, there seems to be confusion around the difference between a monthly direct debit and actual bills?

It should be straightforward to calculate what your energy bills will be going forward on whatever tariff, as long as you know what energy you have been consuming.

Obviously, fixed tariffs at the moment hedge the expected costs of energy going forwards, which are projected to be much higher than they are currently, so not surprising they’re higher than the current variable tariff.

I’d say the fixed quote you’ve got now is one of ‘we don’t really want to fix you on a tariff that will lose us money, but if you insist on fixing, here is one that won’t!’…

Thanks for the input - I’m nearly £200 in credit and they keep suggesting I reduce the DD amount every month by a couple of quid


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[kokolino23]

Can anyone explain why we are charged so much on our bills when the gas price has dropped to 2018 level ?!
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas
Also when the goods prices was increased a while back, the crude oil was their justification. According to this, the price came down quite a lot recently.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/trading-...rent-crude-oil
This is profiteering and the government allows it.

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[sundial]

Can anyone explain why we are charged so much on our bills when the gas price has dropped to 2018 level ?!
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas
Also when the goods prices was increased a while back, the crude oil was their justification. According to this, the price came down quite a lot recently.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/trading-...rent-crude-oil
This is profiteering and the government allows it.

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Because energy supply companies secure their energy in advance by 'buying forward' at the 'forward rate(s)', on the 'futures' commodities markets, months before the gas and electricity is actually "in the grid". Gas supplied to the grid today could have been purchased 'forward' several months ago at a much higher 'forward' price than today's 'spot' rate. But it works both ways and there are times when the 'forward' rate which was fixed months ago, is cheaper than the current 'spot' rate. Lower gas and oil prices will eventually feed through to the domestic and industries' energy tariffs. Our pensions providers when investing our pensions contributions, do so partly by investing on the commodities markets. Profiteering benefits financial institutions including out pensions providers; it's all part of the financial markets 'system' and whilst it might appear 'unfair' to some people, it works – and not just to the benefit of the so called 'fat cats'. Russia and China also invest and participate in the world's financial markets; it's not just a Western practice. The world's economies depend on financial markets.

[kokolino23]

I get what you say and agree with it. However, when the price goes up is passed on to us almost instantly, the stock purchased months ago at a different price doesn't matter anymore. Doesn't work both ways, that's for sure.

[BSB]

I get what you say and agree with it. However, when the price goes up is passed on to us almost instantly, the stock purchased months ago at a different price doesn't matter anymore. Doesn't work both ways, that's for sure.

Rocket and feather economics

[g40steve]

Can anyone explain why we are charged so much on our bills when the gas price has dropped to 2018 level ?!
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas
Also when the goods prices was increased a while back, the crude oil was their justification. According to this, the price came down quite a lot recently.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/trading-...rent-crude-oil
This is profiteering and the government allows it.

Sent from my KB2003 using Tapatalk

Unlike other countries we have no storage so unfortunately we get slapped.

Someone further back mentioned £3.5k for an inverter that’s another holding ankles price!

[Kingstepper]

Unlike other countries we have no storage so unfortunately we get slapped.

How does that explain it, with no storage we'll pay closer to the current market price?

[Passenger]

How does that explain it, with no storage we'll pay closer to the current market price?

But with no storage we can't bulk buy when the prices are low, thus have no hedge against prices when they are higher...dunno.

[farquare]

How does that explain it, with no storage we'll pay closer to the current market price?

UK has a chunk of storage, both gas storage in the zechstien salt formations and a bunch of pumped storage hydro with 1 new 1 in development.

Whilst pumped storage is used primarily for frequency response and is despatched by national grid the gas storage exploits (mainly) intrinsic summer /winter spreads.

Worth noting that all the UK power assets are there to make money, not to be part of an overarching plan (there isn't 1)

The big 6 used to talk about affordability, sustainability and reliability; "the energy trilemma", though I'd argue it's a bit of a cover for just paying them. Whilst there is an element of truth and logic here this only works as part of a fully integrated (and centrally controlled) ecostructure. Otherwise you get exactly what has happened in UK.

By the way I'm not saying the renationalised industry is the panacea, but I struggle to see how it could be worse than the UK currently has to endure.
Decades of the regulators tinkering around has done nothing but encourage companies to look for areas to push the limit at the customers expense.

[kokolino23]

UK has a chunk of storage, both gas storage in the zechstien salt formations and a bunch of pumped storage hydro with 1 new 1 in development.

Whilst pumped storage is used primarily for frequently response and is despatched by national grid the gas storage exploits (mainly) intrinsic summer /winter spreads.

Worth noting that all the UK power assets are there to make money, not to be part of an overarching plan (there isn't 1)

The big 6 used to talk about affordability, sustainability and reliability; "the energy trilemma", though I'd argue it's a bit of a cover for just paying them. Whilst there is an element of truth and logic here this only works as part of a fully integrated (and centrally controlled) ecostructure. Otherwise you get exactly what has happened in UK.

By the way I'm not saying the renationalised industry is the panacea, but I struggle to see how it could be worse than the UK currently has to endure.
Decades of the regulators tinkering around has done nothing but encourage companies to look for areas to push the limit at the customers expense.

Thanks!

[sprite1275]

Is now a good time to fix your energy? With another war and pipes miraculously getting damaged! I'm half way through swapping from shell to octopus flexible but I think I can swap over to the loyal octopus 12m fixed.

[Onelasttime]

Is now a good time to fix your energy? With another war and pipes miraculously getting damaged! I'm half way through swapping from shell to octopus flexible but I think I can swap over to the loyal octopus 12m fixed.

I'm wondering this as well. Octopus are offering the same rates as I'm on now for 12 months, but obviously with leaving fees.

So, while it would make sense considering the inevitable January price hike, is there then a chance that prices will sink below what they are now, until next October?

In other words, if I fix, will I be laughing from January to April, but then crying for the rest of the year? I'd rather be laughing.

[noTAGlove]

I'm wondering this as well. Octopus are offering the same rates as I'm on now for 12 months, but obviously with leaving fees.

So, while it would make sense considering the inevitable January price hike, is there then a chance that prices will sink below what they are now, until next October?

In other words, if I fix, will I be laughing from January to April, but then crying for the rest of the year? I'd rather be laughing.

How much are the leaving fees? Typically not very much if you need to get out of the deal.

[Onelasttime]

How much are the leaving fees? Typically not very much if you need to get out of the deal.

I think £60 each. Probably only worth paying if prices seriously take a dive, which is unlikely.

[mart broad]

How much are the leaving fees? Typically not very much if you need to get out of the deal.

From the Octopus website
“This tariff features 100% renewable electricity and fixes your unit rates and standing charge for 12 months. This tariff has £75/fuel exit fees.

We can make energy more affordable right now by buying a long-term wholesale contract on your behalf. This tariff fixes your prices for 12 months and features 100% renewable electricity.

Normally, we don't charge exit fees. However, this tariff has a £150 early exit fee”

So £150.00 to leave both but with the no let up to the Ukraine war and now the Mid East i am seriously considering going fixed.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Just look at Agile tariff Octopus if you have an electric car, batteries or solar.


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[noTAGlove]

Just look at Agile tariff Octopus if you have an electric car, batteries or solar.


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Horses for courses and the E.ON Next Drive tariff is much more suited to my needs.

9.5p/kWh, but importantly that is guaranteed every night of the year for a full 7 hours between 12am and 7am.

Costs me around £4.60 for a 10%-to-80% fill up, which gets me near 200 miles. Equivalent to 350 mpg when compared to petrol of diesel.

No point chasing the pennies any further at that price. More importantly I chase the number of hours I get that cheap price.

[Wolfie]

I’m already with Octopus… they’ve offered a fix deal

Worth fixing??? What do we think?

[noTAGlove]

I’m already with Octopus… they’ve offered a fix deal

Worth fixing??? What do we think?

[Onelasttime]

Sod it! I've just fixed for 12 months after using the MSE calculator:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ut...rth-it--/#calc

[Wolfie]

I didn’t see that one coming !