Commuting - is your opinion changing in light of Covid?

[Jdh1]

There was a very slow move toward versatile working going on which was accelerated by Covid and in my firm's case a major tech roll out 6 months before the pandemic which has helped facilitate remote working.
The penny has finally dropped that people can attend a meeting without travelling halfway across the country.
Work life balance is better for everyone and from my point of view I will be happy if I never go back to the office again.

My firm have just negotiated a deal with the landlord and reduced the London Head Office floor space by a third.
I have never micromanaged my team and still don't. Everything that needs to get done gets done OK and people have put in the hours when required.

We ran a survey to see if people would prefer to come back to the office.
We have offices in Surrey, Central London, Northampton, Birmingham, Leeds and Edinburgh.
Three people wanted to go back to full time in the office.

I think it is more difficult for new joiners, remote working makes establishing networks more difficult but the genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back.

Let's assume you're right. What do you think about the possibility (likelihood?) that this will sooner or later result in workers becoming REALLY remote? If I was employing people under this sort of laissez faire work-where-you-like
system, I think I'd want them really remote - you know, where the going rate is about a third (or less) of what it is in the UK.

I get that many folk don't want to commute and go back to the office - I reckon I'd feel the same. But leaving other issues aside, it has to result in jobs disappearing off to cheaper labour markets, doesn't it?

[dougair]

Let's assume you're right. What do you think about the possibility (likelihood?) that this will sooner or later result in workers becoming REALLY remote? If I was employing people under this sort of laissez faire work-where-you-like
system, I think I'd want them really remote - you know, where the going rate is about a third (or less) of what it is in the UK.

I get that many folk don't want to commute and go back to the office - I reckon I'd feel the same. But leaving other issues aside, it has to result in jobs disappearing off to cheaper labour markets, doesn't it?

Not sure I follow, if it makes business sense to outsource roles to Delhi or wherever then businesses will do that regardless of flexible working / COVID or anything else. How is forcing people back into the office going to stop roles being outsourced?

[Matt8500]

Agree with Dougair. I have worked for 2 companies now where offshoring of roles has happened. My current company has set up a centre in Portugal, as a good mix of cost and talent. My previous company set up in Hyderabad. In both there are very bright people but without the knowledge of country systems, cultures, or business challenges. I really don’t think home working will change that paradigm.

My current company has already stated you must live in the country of work, even if not commutable to the office. This is for the reasons above, and also because of corporate tax considerations.

[Jdh1]

Not sure I follow, if it makes business sense to outsource roles to Delhi or wherever then businesses will do that regardless of flexible working / COVID or anything else. How is forcing people back into the office going to stop roles being outsourced?

Because it opens up, and makes necessary, a different way of working with has both advantages and disadvantages attached. The 'old' way had advantages for a significant part of the workforce which in turn brought benefits to the organisation. Guinea's post above explained that very well. You only get those benefits by working in the 'old' way, and that doesn't lend itself to wholesale outsourcing of roles to individuals in far remote locations.

Now, if organisations are forced (or choose) to work in the 'new' way, many of those benefits/advantages will be lost, but what is gained, is the opportunity to take advantage of the fact that everyone is working remotely to recruit far cheaper labour. What can be done from a home study in Surrey can be done from a spare room in New Delhi.

So outsourcing overseas becomes much more attractive in the new order than the old. There is less to lose because it is already lost.

[Matt8500]

To add, offshores roles are generally administrative, or with specific expertise in a process or system. I am guessing that some organisations could move most of their operations to a cheaper market on that basis, but that’s not because of homeworking!

[noTAGlove]

I managed 2.5k techies in my last role.

Wow, you must be busy when annual appraisal time comes around.

[Kevin]

Let's assume you're right. What do you think about the possibility (likelihood?) that this will sooner or later result in workers becoming REALLY remote? If I was employing people under this sort of laissez faire work-where-you-like
system, I think I'd want them really remote - you know, where the going rate is about a third (or less) of what it is in the UK.

I get that many folk don't want to commute and go back to the office - I reckon I'd feel the same. But leaving other issues aside, it has to result in jobs disappearing off to cheaper labour markets, doesn't it?

If a race to the bottom is what you want then this could happen.
If you want to give good service and retain knowlege and provide career paths the I doubt this will happen.

But if short term gains and profits are the driver then this will happen I am sure.

[blackal]

Because it opens up, and makes necessary, a different way of working with has both advantages and disadvantages attached. The 'old' way had advantages for a significant part of the workforce which in turn brought benefits to the organisation. Guinea's post above explained that very well. You only get those benefits by working in the 'old' way, and that doesn't lend itself to wholesale outsourcing of roles to individuals in far remote locations.

Now, if organisations are forced (or choose) to work in the 'new' way, many of those benefits/advantages will be lost, but what is gained, is the opportunity to take advantage of the fact that everyone is working remotely to recruit far cheaper labour. What can be done from a home study in Surrey can be done from a spare room in New Delhi.

So outsourcing overseas becomes much more attractive in the new order than the old. There is less to lose because it is already lost.

I predicted that many jobs/disciplines would easily be outsourced to Eastern Europe.

I can really see it happening.

[wileeeeeey]

I predicted that many jobs/disciplines would easily be outsourced to Eastern Europe.

I can really see it happening.

I can see it happening for tech work/Devs to varying degrees but not completely.

For client facing roles not as much.

[Jdh1]

If a race to the bottom is what you want then this could happen.
If you want to give good service and retain knowlege and provide career paths the I doubt this will happen.

But if short term gains and profits are the driver then this will happen I am sure.

Why do you say 'race to the bottom'? That would imply that workers in locations a little more remote than the British suburbs are going to be in some way inferior. I don't think that we can assume that overseas based people are going to provide less utility or service because their local wage rate is less. As for career paths, why would a new employees career path and prospects be any different if he/she is working from home in either the UK or overseas?

[Kevin]

Why do you say 'race to the bottom'? That would imply that workers in locations a little more remote than the British suburbs are going to be in some way inferior. I don't think that we can assume that overseas based people are going to provide less utility or service because their local wage rate is less. As for career paths, why would a new employees career path and prospects be any different if he/she is working from home in either the UK or overseas?

Move jobs out of the UK and you remove income from people, you make the poor poorer, and the rich richer, I am not sure that is a society I want to live in.
We need a fairly affluent employed society so people pay tax and we can afford proper social care etc.

The race to the bottom I refer to occurs in Britain, the overseas workers start to become upwardly mobile, it has nothing to do with who is inferior, although there is a definite advantage in knowing local laws, customs and behaviours.
I can easily see the difference in service and outcomes from recent dealings with a UK based service centre and an outsourced overseas centre.

[Jdh1]

Move jobs out of the UK and you remove income from people, you make the poor poorer, and the rich richer, I am not sure that is a society I want to live in.
We need a fairly affluent employed society so people pay tax and we can afford proper social care etc.

The race to the bottom I refer to occurs in Britain, the overseas workers start to become upwardly mobile, it has nothing to do with who is inferior, although there is a definite advantage in knowing local laws, customs and behaviours.
I can easily see the difference in service and outcomes from recent dealings with a UK based service centre and an outsourced overseas centre.

I agree. I want to keep jobs in the UK as well, and in my opinion the best way to achieve that is to get people back into their offices and start recapturing the USP advantages which only that environment can give.

[guinea]

My perspective comes from running IT in UK businesses. Over the years I've worked with pretty much all the tier 1 global outsourcers for IT and a whole bunch of others for business process outsourcing. I've also managed my own teams in Romania, India, Argentina and the US.

My perspective has changed considerably over the years. In the old days I'd want control of my whole team and investment. However, over the years I've realised that's unsustainable. Now I've pivoted the other way. If it's not a strategic differentiator for the company then I'll outsource it. Careful management of suppliers and keeping enough resources in house to retain knowledge means freeing up huge amounts of cash. It's not a race to the bottom. That freed up cash funder our data/AI capability

There is a productivity tax to be paid when working across cultures and time zones, but it's all manageable. If people can work from home completely, the role can be done abroad. The grads we hire in Romania are the equal of those in the UK and they are far cheaper. There is absolutely no doubt that a move to remote working will end up being a threat to local jobs.

I find it ironic that the same people who have been banging on about co-located agile teams sitting together for years have now dropped that entirely to say working from home is the best and everyone else who disagrees is a dinosaur.

I'm a firm believer there isn't a right answer for everyone. There will be winners and losers. I think the more narrow and focused your job is the easier is is to work from home. The more breadth you need and the more relationships you need to cultivate the harder is it to do it from home. That's probably at the heart of the disconnect between the leaders of companies trying to get people back in to the office and the people that do the work who want to stay at home.

[SeanST150]

I've just stepped off the train in Euston. My first "commute" since March 2020. It's been just as pleasent and relaxing as I remember. I'm energised from my cycle ride, relaxed from the train journey and more looking forward to a short stroll and a productive day in the office.

I guess all of this really depends on your commute.

I'm genuinely interested now to see how much more motivated I am when I land at my (booked) desk.

[Yorkshiremadmick]

This comment about buying a property in an expensive city instead of commuting got me thinking:




Where do you stand on this? In the light of Covid are you changing your mind? Is your company likely to promote more home working even "after Covid"?

Obviously if you can't afford anywhere in a city that's a different matter but for me, life's too short to sit on a train for a minimum of 3 hours on top of a working day. This is even before you consider that historically city property gains value faster and the market means they also move faster.

We bought a 3 bed Victorian-era property in town for the same money as a decent 5 bed that would involve a 60-90min commute. More family time, easier access to the facilities a big city provides.

Having said this, Covid and the likelihood that I'm going to be working from home for the most if not all of the week in future changes this a lot. If I wasn't retiring soon I think I'd be looking to move outside the city for the nicer environment.

I take it by referencing to the city you’re meaning London? As we have many cities some better value and better placed than the Capital London. I’ve spent years commuting into and out of the Capital.
I just detest commuting full stop. Glad I took early retirement in 2013. Can’t remember the last time I ever went to London.
PSA Peugeot Citroen appear to have abandoned their HO Pinley Palace in Coventry with the Majority of staff home working.


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