Reply With QuoteNone of this seems to apply in MumbaiOriginally Posted by Tooks
The operative word was 'chance' but in my case I'm charging off either solar or a 100% renewable energy provider which is becoming far more common so it's a step in the right direction.
For full disclosure we still have a very economical Octavia for the odd journey that needs long range and/or a large capacity. It has gone from around 15k miles to circa 2k miles p.a. since buying the EV and I intend to run it into the ground before replacing it with another electric or whatever the sustainable technology is by then, by which time I expect the range to be at least on a par.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
None of this seems to apply in Mumbai
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
There’s no doubt the days of the combustion engine are numbered, I enjoyed the film Bladerunner but I don’t want to be living in it! - let’s face it, we are living in the few decades where a transfer away from polluting engines is happening and imho there’s no real argument. However that doesn’t mean you have to deny that a little bit of what some of us defined as fun is being eroded - much like watching old film of an empty M1 with an E type blasting through, even though we know it was the start of the motor car and all the pollution that came along, at the time it must have felt great. It’s a time of change - enforced by the fact we’re obviously damaging the planet and currently don’t have a spare available. But that doesn’t necessarily make the solution a better experience, just different . I bought the Fiesta ST - frankly a humble little car compared to many on here - as a last gasp hot hatch, before they disappear. With a limited slip differential and a great chassis - coupled with a 1.5 litre 3 cylinder engine, it’s light and surprisingly economical, but totally out-drives the Cupra in a physical sense which is clear the first time you go around a roundabout. It’s not a village scaring behemoth, but cyclists and ramblers can hear you coming and the last time a Muntjac Deer stopped in front of me on a tight bend I was able to drive around it with little drama. I reckon the Cupra would have smeared it across the road. I bought the Cupra to try out an EV and to be our main car, reduce my effect on the planet (although I’ve not been on a plane in 20 years which I suspect make me a carbon saint) and let’s face it every man loves a modern gadget which doesn’t help. And so far I’m a bit mixed tbh but it’s early days, which is totally what I’d expect from a bearded man in his 50’s who has just bought an EV!
My Mustang Mach E driving neighbour said last night as my wife drove off in the Fiesta ‘I bet the new car knocks socks off that one - must have loads more performance’ but in that regard he couldn’t be more wrong. But that doesn’t matter ultimately as they don’t make them any more.
Yeah, they perform very differently so you have to get used to that aspect. I think that the next generation will still get enjoyment from motoring as they will not automatically associate the engine and exhaust noise, stick shift and suchlike with the experience. My father holds a lot of nostalgia for steam locomotives, having grown up in an era when they were still widespread and an apparent conviction that they are sentient and have a soul. My kids see steam power as something of a historical curiosity but still love the occasion of a rail journey when it's done right (which sadly isn't the case in the UK these days).
Instant fast acceleration from 40mph to scoot past something on a country road in what is a relatively modest vehicle feels like a quantum leap forward, but you do need to take the bends in a different way due to the weight distribution. I've not heard much about safety issues for cyclists and ramblers, maybe there is some comparison data out there but I can't see the lack of noise or exhaust pollution as being a bad thing for them. Motorists and other users alike should always have their wits about them on the road.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Lack of noise is inky an issue at very low speed, once up to about 20mph, tyre noise is generally (note I said generally) the loudest noise a modern car makes, be that ICE or EV.
External sound generators for EVs whilst manouevering is a good thing, once you’re doing more than 15mph then tyre and wind noise is the loudest thing really, and comparable to an ICE vehicle, one without a silly loud exhaust anyway. It’s presumably why the sound generators cut off after that speed.
EVs are in no way silent, just less noisy at low speed.
Absolutely, I have one of those bleeping things so that pedestrians know that I'm manoeuvring and it's a good feature. The observation related to walkers and cyclists on country roads being somehow safer as they are able to hear ICE vehicles approaching. Presumably tyre and wind noise is primarily internal? As engines have come a long way on the noise front I guess there's not so much in it anyway and I expect that Singapore has a much lower ambient traffic drone since 20 years ago.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Whilst you do hear tyre and wind noise internally, tyre ‘noise’ is the main external sound in a vehicle at a steady speed above around 15mph, wind noise less so.
EU tyre labeling helpfully tells us what the dB rating is for a given tyre, 70+ is the norm, but the type of road service is also a factor.
There’s a bit more on how tyre noise is generated in the following link;
https://www.etrma.org/wp-content/upl...Noise_2022.pdf
All those pesky IAM drivers eh, bloody maniacs, training to a higher level of driving skill & observation.
A direct quote from them: “Making progress” is code for taking advantage of the prevailing speed limit, when it is safe and appropriate to do so.
Everyone makes progress. Seems to be a code for speeding.
Ta
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
To me, the main benefit of driving is the freedom that it provides - therefore, the emotional value of motoring is being able to go where you want, whenever you want.
Clearly everyone is different, but I got not additional enjoyment from a loud exhaust or puff of smoke that an ICE created, driving and the pleasure is all about being “free”.
As some have stated about, the local petrol heads are actually an annoyance that I could do without. Loud engines/exhausts, aggressive acceleration and cranked music just scream “bellend”.
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As somebody who makes a living working in aviation, I have to undergo plenty of mandatory training and annual CRM and Human Factors courses, so it’s an area of interest for me.
Generally poor drivers misjudge their abilities because they fail to recognise the difference between their driving and that of others. If we’re being honest, and objectively assessing your own competence is important, we tend to think that we’re better than average.
Whilst any form of higher training/instruction is important, so in that sense the IAM is laudable, doing and passing such a course can actually contribute to that same inflated sense of your own competence, and actually make you open to behaviours that might be considered risky.
I read something years ago on an insurers website that said that newly qualified IAM holders were involved in fewer incidents than non-IAM, but that difference eroded the further away from the course date you were, to no difference by 5 years.
As humans, we also learn from experience both good and bad, and it’s not always the way you expect. Getting away with objectively bad driving can become normalised, ie nothing adverse happens most of the time until it does.
There will be drivers who have only done the most basic driving test who will be more experienced than any IAM driver, so it means very little on its own.
If instruction was the only key to flying safely, then in theory no pilot would ever crash a plane due to human factors, yet it happens all the time unfortunately.
I would happily welcome annual / bi-annual assessment, or wherever the statistics said it would make sense, such as your 5yr IAM reference; which I have read before / was told by my friend who is an IAM Assessor.
I find it really interesting when I go with him every couple of years for a top up on my learning what has eroded, so can fully buy into the 5 year period becoming zero difference. When he was a driving instructor, he used to chastise me for dipping the clutch too early when coming to a stop - that took a while to retrain my brain with.
Am a bit of a driving geek, I love continued learning about it and tend to read and view way too many articles on it, from road craft through to the lighter BC's How Not To Crash, and some Reg content too.
Took a round trip of about 3hrs for a funeral Friday, and was amazed at how many people cannot predict behaviour of others based on road positioning / the number of people suddenly panicked by the car that 'appeared' in front of them in their lane on the motorway when they have been closing steadily on it for a few minutes. Random braking, just because their foot has to be on one pedal or the other etc.
As per your comment on experience and some basic drivers with more experience than the IAM ones, completely agree - being great on paper counts for nothing without the rubber meeting the road (worst phrase ever). I drive significantly fewer miles than I used to; I feel more in-tune as a result, as I am not on auto pilot on a 60 mile commute to the office.
You missed the bit about prevailing speed limit, on purpose I feel.
Not at all (and phrase isn’t only used by you expert drivers).
In reality, it's not and can be a fail on your driving test.
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=56305
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Never claimed to be an expert, but you're clearly on troll-mode this afternoon, so I am out & going to start prepping the roast pork for this evening.
Unless someone is stationary they’re making progress towards their destination.
Imagine very few people will be driving so slowly that their progress isn’t deemed adequate.
When it comes to noisy exhausts and bellends, there is surely no worse perpetrator than motorcyclists? All that sound to propel 1 person - I’d say there are 10 obnoxiously loud motorbikes to every 1 noisy car. My comment about ICE versus electric sounds was coloured by an experience a few weeks ago where an electric scooter (the Vespa type as opposed to stood on like a big child type) whizzed around a corner so rapidly and silently it nearly ran down an elderly gentleman who had just got out of his car in a quiet side street. As to noisy cars with noisy stereos and exhausts - I’d agree they are awful, but seem to be in rapid decline as the younger generation of hooligan can’t afford to purchase or insure a car preferring to spend their money on vapes, weed and the latest call of duty game.
You are wrong, progress is referenced against traffic/weather conditions and applicable speed limit.
Feel free to argue the toss with somebody else.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
You joined the argument. Anyway, for anyone else: -
progress
noun
/ˈprəʊɡrɛs/
1.
forward or onward movement towards a destination.
As did you - for the sanity of everybody else - read the driving standards.
You carry on shouting at the sky.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
And you carry on listening and arguing the toss.
Back to the thread title - I’m 10 days into driving an EV now and I think they are a viable option, but not for everyone. Compared to an ICE car the range is just a bit rubbish - when it drops much below 100 miles in a normal car I start to think about filling it up, in an EV you have to rewire you brain to think wow that’s loads of range left! All the gadgets/heating etc noticeably sap charge, as does the outside temperature. It does make you think about your energy use which may well be a good thing. I’m still halfway between enjoying the smooth ride and general lack of interaction and being slightly bored by it, it’s certainly in no way a sporty drive - and the added weight feels very apparent around the country lanes where I live so I’m certainly driving more slowly. I only considered an EV as I have a driveway and a home charger, whether it’s really a practical issue may be up to the individual, but I’m out and about today and this evening and by 11pm I reckon I’ll be below 20% battery. There’s no way I’d want to spend time looking for a charger and sit in the car for half an hour waiting. The Home charger removes that inconvenience. I’ve also visited my local garage complete with mini Waitrose - for food and a newspaper - just as often as I did/do in my ice car so that’s neither here nor there!
So on day 10 I’d say the novelty still hasn’t worn off, I certainly don’t really look forward to driving it as I feel like a bit of a passenger, the range anxiety is real in spite of my 30 mile daily commute, but it does cosset me more than my other car. Oh, and the main comment from friends and family is ‘I wouldnt have one - and I nearly got run over by one in a car park the other day as they are too quiet.’!!
It is a different mindset - they are more like a form of highly evolved transport and less like an experience.
I do find them remarkably guilt-free though - especially for short journeys.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
I'm seeing a bit of an oxymoron there.
There is a mindset change required for sure, and remember that even a modest sized ICE car has the equivalent of 450kWh of energy on board in the fuel tank.
Yes, an EV makes the most sense for those with home or workplace charging, or some kind of kerbside setup at least.
You’re on a learning curve at the moment, what you’re stressing about now is stuff you won’t worry about soon, I regularly run my EV down to less than 5%, if it says it’s got the range then it generally has as long as I don’t change my driving style.
I’m surprised you’re finding turning on things like heating impact range so much, the heating and aircon is always on in mine, turning it off barely adds much range in the grand scheme of things.
You need to isolate the changes due to that from the other things you’re doing at the moment like various journey types and length, and no doubt you’re still enjoying the straight line acceleration occasionally?! Putting your right foot down does more to decrease the battery percentage and range than anything else. At peak power you’re drawing more than 170kW from your 62kWh (gross) battery, heating once the cabin is warm will be around 1.5-2kW per hour, so over a 3 hour journey you’re looking at a reduction in range of only around 20 miles. That’s equivalent to only just over 2 minutes at full ‘throttle’.
It’ll learn your driving style and the range estimate algorithm should become more accurate. Lots of short journeys with lots of cold cabin starts will impact things, but if you multiply your long term average miles per kWh figure by your available battery, you’ll get a number you know you’ll always get.
For the 58kWh Born, that should be around 200 miles, depending on driving style etc. Think about the ABC mantra as well, Always Be Charging’, so plugging in every night whether you need to or not or when you’re at work (if available) or going shopping, but keeping the car topped up (or 80% anyway as recommended by VAG), and you’re good for any journey even unexpected ones.
Last edited by Tooks; 19th December 2023 at 18:43.
I lose about 3.5% range when constantly running the a/c or heater. The other gadgets including heated seats and steering wheel have negligible impact.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
With a lowly 24kwhr battery (about 17 useable these days), a good day may see a 65 mile range. More commonly, it’s around 50 miles.
I long since lost any firm of range anxiety and, if necessary, top up with just enough to get home on public chargers.
My local council are planning to install 7 new lamppost EV chargers on my road and it has got many of the neighbours quite agitated. The road only has about 90 houses and maybe half have off street parking. None of the neighbouring 6 streets are getting any chargers, so anyone in those streets will have to charge in ours. Add to that we are about a 10 minute walk from the nearest tube station so get commuters parking all day. The council have joined up with Uber to fund the chargers too which could mean lots of minicabs using the street for charging too.
It doesn’t affect us directly as we have off street parking and charging but this kind of rollout will just alienate residents rather than encouraging people to switch.
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As part of this they should impose something like a 3 hour time limit on charging during the day with a hefty overstay penalty, and provide cheaper rates for residents via a card system. Don't suppose that they will though.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Thanks for the comments. I’m sure things will even out over time and I’ll develop a more measured perspective. Perhaps the fact it’s been dark, cold and rainy hasn’t helped - and I have to admit although the straight line performance is pretty good as it’s slower than our other car I don’t really notice that - at the moment I’m more worried about the range and wet roads with rear wheel drive are something I’m wary of!
That sounds like a nightmare scenario already with the tube vicinity (handy for the commuters though!), and the chargers will just amplify the issues.
Really don't envy you that tbh.
Yep, not a good time to have your first experience running an EV in the wet and cold, but I suppose it’s the worst it will get.
Wait until spring, you’ll see some good uplifts in range.
If the Born is anything like the ID.3, the ESC is very good, I can’t imagine how you’d have to be driving to get the backend to step out.
I thought that they were about the same acceleration, although I expect that the (rather irrelevant) top speed is lower on the EV - you have the e-Boost model don't you?
How do they compare from 30mph - 60mph?
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
A modern RWD car will take some real provoking to get out of order with ESC/equivalent turned on, a small but sudden twitch but the car will catch it instantly - will feel a bit weird if you haven't felt it before.
If genuinely wary, maybe book a session on a skid pan / driver tuition focused on this - they are great fun.
Alternatively find an empty piece of tarmac in the wet and just push until you feel it break, you will realise just how much mechanical grip it is capable of - much more than you probably think.
I’m pleasantly surprised at the range on mine.
By changing my mindset, I’ve got used to it already. Managed a 200 mile round trip on Sunday with no need to charge and considering the colder weather and the fact range was stated as below 200 I was really happy. And back with 35 miles to spare and no worries over range.
I’ve had mine just over 4 weeks and haven’t had to charge publicly yet.
I miss my Velar (size and presence) and have curbed the new one twice (same wheel!!!) but chuffed with it up to now.
Ok apologies if this all goes a bit Top Gear and Top Trumps!
They’re apparently about the same 0-60, about 6.5 seconds, I suspect the Cupra is quicker 0-30 but from 30-60 and beyond the Fiesta feels a fair bit punchier.
It certainly feels a lot quicker and more eager to accelerate, it’s like an eager terrier and you have to keep an eye on your speed .
Totally irrelevant top speed is 143 mph in the Fiesta vs 99 in the Cupra! I do have the Cupra 58kw e-boost model which purports to be an electric warm hatch but I wouldn’t say it drives like a fast car at all. Tbh they drive so differently it’s not really a comparison, one drives quiet and smooth like a limo and feels heavier and more relaxing to drive, the other feels very firm and is so agile with loads of steering feedback - and with a limited slip differential and some clever geometry you rarely feel like you need to slow down for a corner.
And you really do feel like you’re driving it. In the Cupra I wait for a straight bit of road to try out the Cupra e-boost mode, in the Fiesta you can put your foot down almost anywhere.
Actually they complement each other quite well in that regard, much more different than just EV versus ICE.
It’s sensible car vs sporty car.
I’ve never had a Porsche 911 or an M3 like many on the forum - I’m really not a petrolhead and frankly don’t have the spare cash - but I did have a Peugeot 205 Gti 1.9 and 16v golf gti back in the day and the Fiesta ST with the 1.5 3 cylinder engine is streets ahead of them, both in terms of power and handling.
The Cupra is a very smooth, quiet executive feeling car - it might look a bit sporty but aside from the acceleration it doesn’t have a sporty character.
I’m sure I’ll get used to it but it doesn’t encourage you to drive it legally fast - I’ve been doing a lot of 50 in a 60 as I just cant feel what the tyres are doing yet.
If I was after a sporty car I’d be disappointed - acceleration isn’t the same without agility. But as a daily commuter it’s probably a better car.
However right now if I could keep only 1 it would be the little Ford, no hesitation - it drives a lot better, goes a lot further and is £14k cheaper!
Spin in the fuel cost and eco benefits and I guess it becomes a bit closer to call - and like I say it’s early days!
Plus the Fiesta has buttons and switches for the heating and a proper handbrake as opposed to a screen and haptic surfaces but that’s another topic altogether!!
Last edited by RobDad; 20th December 2023 at 01:31.
^^^Dont take offence, but add some paragraphs please. It is not as if you are saving paper.
Apologies, written on the fly!
Really interesting to read, thank you. It sort of sums up where my brain says I will feel about an EV compared to a normal car despite the paper stats.
I think that for the next generation it will be ICE cars that are not considered 'normal' and a bit odd in the way that they handle. Obviously everyone has their own take on change but it's easier if you have not been conditioned over time, which develops into cognitive biases. Things like range anxiety when the daily run is only 30 miles and you can plug in at home should just take a bit of getting used to. I greatly prefer driving an EV for a number of reasons, but I can see why many don't.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Agree on the charging mindset, it might as well be plugged in whenever you're at home.
The other point I've noticed really impacting mileage is gradient - I know it will impact an ICE car too but the added weight of the EV, combined with brake regen, means a significant difference between the two halves of my commute.
I've always loved cars and can see me having an ICE car for many years purely as a toy. There are so many to choose from! Hopefully manufacturers will start building some more interesting/beautiful EVs (Caterham concept looks good to me) and they can be the plaything of the future.
Yes, and head or tailwinds impact range as well, the worse case scenario is zero temps, strong headwind and wet roads with the tyres shifting water, circa 15% drop in efficiency for me in those circumstances. It can be countered by lowering speed though or in my case a quick splash and dash on a rapid.
That’s only an issue on long journeys, which is what I do mostly, a 70 mile round trip, well it doesn’t matter if I use 45% instead of the usual 30-35%.
To be fair, and maybe I’m weird, but I find the whole managing your energy, planning stops, charging strategies and efficient driving over longer distances really enjoyable. A few times a year I do a 1000 mile round trip over a week, but most of the time it’s exactly the same as any car, zero planning required and just need to remember to plug it in when I get home from work or wherever.
We’ve been spoilt somewhat with abundant and relatively cheap petrol/diesel for decades, with its 45kWh per gallon energy content, and it’s really made me think what’s possible if we put our minds to it. The fact that most EVs can do at least 150 miles with that energy in a battery is kind of impressive.
Completely agree with you on the next generation, and their new normal.
If so, I must be weird as well. My regular runs to Scotland from Northamptonshire are a pleasure, I started off with a three-stop strategy but quickly realised that was complete overkill and now it's two 45 - 50 minute charges on the way which are just about when a break, leak and cuppa are needed. That allows me to arrive at the destination with 55% - 65% remaining, so enough to get me back to the first charge station on the way back.
There is far less power consumption on the way home, as obviously it is downhill all the way
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
The conversation above imho clearly illustrates why there are so many conflicting opinions around EV’s.
Many earlier adopters fall into the IT fan/data analyst Mr Spock type - I compute that as a result of their superior technology, it is illogical that my EV is superior to an ICE car in every way. Let’s crunch the numbers around the wind drag coefficient and compare how tyre radius affects range etc…
To talk about older vehicles being in any way better is illogical (Tapatalk doesn’t allow quotation marks for some bizarre reason)
On the other side you’ve got your keener drivers - Captain Kirk perhaps - who like a car that has a bit of character and perhaps handles a bit better - will happily admit that they are a bit old fashioned but don’t assume newer is better in every single way. And find all the range stuff and calculations a bit boring.
After all Captain Kirk has other stuff to do like kissing hot alien chicks and Uhura!
I’m obviously being tongue in cheek but I reckon it’s a factor.
I’ve also realised most you tube car reviews are massively subjective. For a few weeks I had a Ford Puma - hugely lauded in nearly every review - which was one of the worst cars I’ve ever driven, sounded like a tractor, awful uncomfortable seats, and obviously a fiesta with a wobbly body perched on top. Horrible.
The Cupra is panned for the infotainment and lack of buttons but 10 days into ownership I’m finding it easy to operate and a total non issue.
Evidently It takes more than a day in a press car to properly evaluate the basics of daily use!
Last edited by RobDad; 21st December 2023 at 09:31.
Think you were a bit unlucky.
My wife put a hole in the sidewall of the C40's front tyre last night - no way a can of sealant was going to do anything.
Volvo assist just popped a space saver wheel on and I drove it home. Booked in to get a new tyre fitted at Kwik Fit tomorrow.
I like your analogy... and then there's all the regular non Trekkie folks, not really bovvered about cars, but must have one to reliably, simply, stresslessly get around, do stuff/ get stuff done.
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