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Thread: Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

  1. #101
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    I really would like my next car to be an EV butÖ

    During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.

    However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.

    I could get there on a single charge but then Iíd be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles ( well one Tesla and one other that zap map reports, but doesnít seem to exist).

    Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, itís not going to be feasible for a lot of people.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by timor54 View Post
    I really would like my next car to be an EV butÖ

    During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.

    However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.

    I could get there on a single charge but then Iíd be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles ( well one Tesla and one other that zap map reports, but doesnít seem to exist).

    Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, itís not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
    You can charge from a three pin plug, there must be plenty where you stay.

    Youíll probably also find that there are far more charge points around where youíre staying than you realise.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBROSUS View Post
    I doubt they would make the 3 and 4 hundred miles round trip with a horse box.
    If that was a prerequisite for all cars, the roads would be pretty empty!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    You can charge from a three pin plug, there must be plenty where you stay.

    Youíll probably also find that there are far more charge points around where youíre staying than you realise.
    Yes, I frequent North Norfolk quite a bit, there are a number of destination charge points at pubs etc, as well as 3 pin options in holiday accommodation etc.

    Kings Lynn and the 8 x Instavolts at Necton near Swaffham are the best options.

    It could always be better though, and will need to be to be fair.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Yes, I frequent North Norfolk quite a bit, there are a number of destination charge points at pubs etc, as well as 3 pin options in holiday accommodation etc.

    Kings Lynn and the 8 x Instavolts at Necton near Swaffham are the best options.

    It could always be better though, and will need to be to be fair.
    I agree that the public charging network needs to improve and,to be fair, itís a hundred times better than it was in 2015.

    Most detractors who comment on the charging network seem to forget that the vast majority of charging is done at home and the network is only used for longer journeys.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    If that was a prerequisite for all cars, the roads would be pretty empty!
    Lol... For all cars no but for at least one in some households who enjoy equine sports or even taking the caravan to the lakes or up the Highlands. Perhaps there is one for a 300 mile trip with a caravan out there. I could pick up one for a few grand that will do the job tommorow on autotrader. No mate they are not ready for replacing current cars for a lot of rural folk just yet.

    The small trader who does hard landscaping a tonne of sand gravel a few tonnes of soil on a dig out that's not getting run all day on a charge.

    I get folk like them but they have limited options when compared to current IC engined vehicals.



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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    I agree that the public charging network needs to improve and,to be fair, itís a hundred times better than it was in 2015.

    Most detractors who comment on the charging network seem to forget that the vast majority of charging is done at home and the network is only used for longer journeys.
    This is not forgotten just not possible for a lot of folk as mentioned previously drive through some towns city's at night and see the lines of cars on the road.

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  8. #108
    I drive a BMW i3 Rex
    Cracking car
    140-160 electric range
    100 mile petrol back up if ever needed

    Charge
    It up at home for pennies on a three point plug


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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by timor54 View Post
    I really would like my next car to be an EV butÖ

    During the winter months I drive little, rarely more than 100 miles a week, have a garage so an EV would be ideal.

    However, during the summer months I regularly drive down to north Norfolk. This is a 175 mile trip; I then typically stay there for a week and then drive the 175 miles back home. This pattern is repeated throughout the summer months.

    I could get there on a single charge but then Iíd be stuffed as there are basically NO charging points within about 25 miles ( well one Tesla and one other that zap map reports, but doesnít seem to exist).

    Until there is wide scale charging available, not just on trunk roads and in cities, itís not going to be feasible for a lot of people.
    Buy a Rex


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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweepinghand View Post
    Buy a Rex


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    Withdrawn in UK so would have to be pre-owned.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBROSUS View Post
    Lol... For all cars no but for at least one in some households who enjoy equine sports or even taking the caravan to the lakes or up the Highlands. Perhaps there is one for a 300 mile trip with a caravan out there. I could pick up one for a few grand that will do the job tommorow on autotrader. No mate they are not ready for replacing current cars for a lot of rural folk just yet.

    The small trader who does hard landscaping a tonne of sand gravel a few tonnes of soil on a dig out that's not getting run all day on a charge.

    I get folk like them but they have limited options when compared to current IC engined vehicals.



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    ICE has been around for over 120 years and for most of that time been the only real option. Modern EVs have been around for about fifteen years; arbitrarily picking isolated cases where EVs are not currently practical doesnít mean that for the majority of people, the majority of the time EVs are not as good, if not better than ICE.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    ICE has been around for over 120 years and for most of that time been the only real option. Modern EVs have been around for about fifteen years; arbitrarily picking isolated cases where EVs are not currently practical doesnít mean that for the majority of people, the majority of the time EVs are not as good, if not better than ICE.
    Yes nice the use of the word modern and yet electric vehical have been around for over a hundred years yet modern ones yes only 15.

    Folk with no driveway are now isolated? Again take a drive through a local town and see all the isolated or who are soon to be isolated folk.

    As for cost taking this modern EV runnining around 4p a mile before any duty which is sure to come look at vehical tax and the ever changing goal posts.

    Far from isolated these cars have their place and will have their tax raised I am sure but not for the mainstream man on the street yet. Huge infrastructure needed to power such a demand.

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Do you have solar power at home?....if so I’m guessing you’ll have many more hours daylight (sunlight) than us Brits and EV cars make even more sense.
    Ive seen a Zappi charger that’s extremely smart which diverts any power not used by the house directly to the EV. During the summer months I’m producing 2.6kw and using only about 500w in the house. I know this will only trickle the battery but it’s literally something for nothing rather than sending to the grid.
    Quote Originally Posted by UMBROSUS View Post
    As for cost taking this modern EV runnining around 4p a mile before any duty which is sure to come look at vehical tax and the ever changing goal posts.

    Far from isolated these cars have their place and will have their tax raised I am sure but not for the mainstream man on the street yet. Huge infrastructure needed to power such a demand.
    Anyone heard of the ‘Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018’. Some of the act came into force in April.
    It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail.
    At the moment there is no way of knowing how/what you use your electricity for, heating, lighting or charging your car.

    The car charging point will let ‘someone’ know how much electricity is being consumed by your car (even if you produce all the electricity yourself, solar panels etc).
    This means the specific electric used to power your car could be taxed.... why else would they want to know this very specific usage.
    This charge will be used to cover the loss of the current fuel duty, the 57.95p per litre (plus 20% vat).
    So don't do any long term plans on expected fuel savings.
    Last edited by steptoe; 11th August 2021 at 16:01.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by steptoe View Post
    Anyone heard of the ĎAutomated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018í. Some of the act came into force in April.
    It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail.
    Thatís not true.

    It is now a requirement that grant funded chargers need to be Ďsmartí or connected, but itís not illegal to fit a dumb charger if youíre not partially funding it with a grant.

    https://www.zap-map.com/grant-backed...must-be-smart/

    I agree its highly likely that there will be some attempt to tax electricity used for vehicles differently at some point though!

  15. #115
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    I imagine the tax thing will work similar to boat fuel, in fill up you declare a percentage that you use for propulsion, vice heating living etc.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Thatís not true.

    It is now a requirement that grant funded chargers need to be Ďsmartí or connected, but itís not illegal to fit a dumb charger if youíre not partially funding it with a grant.

    https://www.zap-map.com/grant-backed...must-be-smart/

    I agree its highly likely that there will be some attempt to tax electricity used for vehicles differently at some point though!
    With mot's on occasion recording miles whatever the EV equivalent could charge a tariff per mile driven. Not a great bill to drop but like road tax atm could be paid on DD monthly on your average miles and made up at the end of the year.

    Who knows but I doubt it will be duty free for long.

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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Middo View Post
    I imagine the tax thing will work similar to boat fuel, in fill up you declare a percentage that you use for propulsion, vice heating living etc.
    A little off topic but after April next year will you still be able to use pink in your boat?

    Was just looking at the exemptions the other day as the fuel cost at work is set to double as we move from pink to full duty diesel.

    I would imagine on most construction sites this will cause problems in both cost and security but who knows.

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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by forpetesake View Post
    I have yet to see an EV with a tow bar fitted.
    Anyone know of an estate EV which fully loaded would tow my caravan on a 300 mile around trip for a weekend in the country?
    I'm not sure how heavy your caravan is, but my neighbour is about to take delivery of a VW ID4 and mentioned that it has a 310 mile range (in theory, at least) and can tow a trailer up to 1200kg


    https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electri...s/id4-gtx.html

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by JonRA View Post
    I'm not sure how heavy your caravan is, but my neighbour is about to take delivery of a VW ID4 and mentioned that it has a 310 mile range (in theory, at least) and can tow a trailer up to 1200kg


    https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electri...s/id4-gtx.html
    Most caravans are 1300-1800kg, so nowhere near. A diesel Octavia for example can do 1800kg, a Superb 2000-2200

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by forpetesake View Post
    I have yet to see an EV with a tow bar fitted.
    Anyone know of an estate EV which fully loaded would tow my caravan on a 300 mile around trip for a weekend in the country?
    Not estates but you could consider the Tesla Model X (2,270kg) or if you prefer the range of a hybrid the Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid (3,500kg) might suffice. Sure both would be very economical.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Not estates but you could consider the Tesla Model X (2,270kg) or if you prefer the range of a hybrid the Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid (3,500kg) might suffice. Sure both would be very economical.
    If I could afford those, I wouldn't be going on caravan holidays, lol.
    Hyundai Ioniq 5 looks reasonable at 1600kg, but they're still over £40k

  22. #122
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    Wake me up when we have universal 'fits all' quick chargers and standardised tarriffs please

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    Wake me up when we have universal 'fits all' quick chargers and standardised tarriffs please
    The chargers are all standardised arenít they or am I missing something?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    The chargers are all standardised arenít they or am I missing something?
    Pretty much so, itís all going CCS/type 2. Thereíll still be CHAdeMO around for a while for those of us with old tech.

    All new charge installations have to have a PAYG function and debit/credit card reader I believe.

  25. #125
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    Do we think that EV is truly here to stay. My biggest stumbling block is the fear that you'd buy one and then in 3/4 years time... The world's moved on and what you have is worthless. Like a minidisc.

    Also, the used value of an EV is largely unknown.

    I've never explored the option fully; and I've never bought a new car... So my points may be totally invalid, but to me. We've not yet worked out the best alternative to ICE, so plowing money into an EV seems foolish.

    It'll be a while until I buy anything but ICE, but I wonder if when that becomes a no deal, if Hydrogen will be the alternative.

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  26. #126
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    EVs are a dead end.

    They won't go away entirely as for people looking for a shopping trolley for low mileage local use can live with them, so long as they have access to a proper car for holidays, day trips, weekends away at the coast or to to see the folks etc - or they live in London.(Sadly, that's where our decision-makers live so we can guarantee some metro-centric stupidity in transport policy).

    EVs (even Teslas) are just so compromised compared to proper cars in terms of poor range (and consequent range anxiety), slow rechaging compared to ICE, absence of sufficient charging points, and of course, purchase price - not to mention their very dubious environmental impact due to the evironmental damage done by the materials that go into them, or the questionable ecological footprint of renewable sources of electricity.

    There are quite a few articles now by writers who went EV without thinking it through / without an ICE alternative to hand, and it's had a major impact on their lives when it comes to limiting their travel options.

    At some point the world will switch to a mix of nuclear and renewables (preferably renewables that are more sustainable than what's in use at the moment - all those tons of steel and concrete, and the many transportation miles involved in their manufacture and setup take an age to pay back), and cars will switch to hydrogen, which behaves much more like petrol and diesel in practical terms. The political push to force carmakers to move away from ICE is forcing them towards EVs at the moment but I can't see that lasting once hydrogen becomes a real proposition. I suspect policymaker awareness of this is the main reason little is being done right now to build EV charging infrastructure.

    The best thing buyers can do right now is go on strike - don't buy, and if you must buy, buy only ICE, don't pay the stupid asking prices for EV and don't put up with the nonsense of EVs being worse than proper cars on every concievable measure (including evironmental impact).

    Of course you'll always get EV fanboyz, most of whom venture outside the M25 (see above) but they will always be in a minority. The rest of the country does not live like your average Londoner, some of us need to do proper commuting, not necessarily to places where recharing will be easily available.

    At the business park in Reading where I used to regularly commute pre-covid, you had to be in before 9 to even get a parking space some days - chances of a decent proportion of these cars being able to recharge before a trip home? Zero. Of course Covid has changed some of the practicalities of that for now but I have a suspicion things will eventually creep back to something closer to what it was before.

    I'm planning to retire soon and had intended to buy a new car to do me for the foreseeable, but the diesel Jag XF will be fine for another few years while things become clear. The one thing I absolutely won't do is run off and do something stupid like buy an EV.
    Last edited by kk; 11th August 2021 at 21:01.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    EVs are a dead end.

    They won't go away entirely as for people looking for a shopping trolley for low mileage local use can live with them, so long as they have access to a proper car for holidays, day trips, weekends away at the coast or to to see the folks etc - or they live in London.(Sadly, that's where our decision-makers live so we can guarantee some metro-centric stupidity in transport policy).

    EVs (even Teslas) are just so compromised compared to proper cars in terms of poor range (and consequent range anxiety) and of course, purchase price - not to mention their very dubious environmental impact due to the evironmental damage done by the materials that go into them, or the questionable ecological footprint of renewable sources of electricity.

    There are quite a few articles now who went EV without thinking it through, and it's had major impact on their lives when it comes to limiting their travel options.

    At some point the world will switch to a mix of nuclear and renewables (preferably renewables that are more sustainable than what's in use at the moment - all those tons of steel and concrete, and the many transportation miles involved in their manufacture and setup take an age to pay back), and cars will switch to hydrogen, which behaves much more like petrol and diesel in practical terms. The political push to force carmakers to move away from ICE is forcing them towards EVs at the moment but I can't see that lasting once hydrogen becomes a real proposition. I suspect policymaker awareness of this is the main reason little is being done right now to build EV charging infrastructure.

    The best thing buyers can do right now is go on strike - buy only ICE, don't pay the stupid asking prices for EV.

    Of course you'll always get EV fanboyz who never venture outside the M25 (see above) but they will always be in a minority. The rest of the country does not live like your average car-free Londoner, some of us need to do proper commuting, not necessarily to places where recharing will be easily available.

    At the business park in Reading where I used to regularly commute pre-covid, you had to be in before 9 to even get a parking space some days - chances of a decent proportion of these cars being able to recharge before a trip home? Zero. Of course Covid has changed some of the practicalities of that for now but I have a suspicion things will eventually creep back to something closer to what it was before.

    I'm planning to retire soon and had intended to buy a new car to do me for the foreseeable, but the diesel Jag XF will be fine for another few years while things become clear. The one thing I absolutely won't do is run off and do something stupid like buy an EV.
    Thereís an awful lot to unpack there, a lot of it very wrong.

    People have been saying this about EVs for the 7 years Iíve been driving one, and for the first couple of years I believed them.

    Youíre not a fan, and thatís fine, but my own experience (and I donít live in London by the way) is that my latest EV is a full replacement for my last ICE car, and works very well for me for trips all over the UK for both work and pleasure. I drive 25k miles a year, my wife a bit less, I have a full time job and a family with all the pulls on my time that entails. I donít eat lentils either.

    If EVs are a dead end, then Iím afraid to say so are cars in general. We have to move to something even a little more sustainable, more of the same just isnít going to work.

    People have been telling me Iíve Ďbrought the wrong carí for years, but who are they to judge?

    What is it about EVs that prickle so many? Donít like them, donít get one, itíll be many years before you canít buy even a used ICE. I donít go around telling people that theyíre wrong to drive a petrol or diesel car, so what gives?

  28. #128
    ICE is a dead end.
    Iím not a driver though that will change soon when the Mrs finally gets round to buying a car, it will obviously be electric or a hybrid (not one with a 15 mile range and a full size ICE)

    We are not car people and find the whole identity/ego thing and people living with their parents but driving a bmw for half their wages extremely odd, we are not the only people who think this way.
    The whole language of motoring is totally skewed the wrong way, itís something to get you somewhere with little fuss not something that identifies you.
    Just look at the aggressive design language of cars today, itís so wrapped up in Male ego, no wonder millennials are shunning car ownership, they see them as depreciating assets you leave on the streets and when you do use them itís to sit in going nowhere fast.
    Hopefully a big player outside the car world will get involved (Sony/apple/Fuji/Panasonic) and start selling vehicles to get you somewhere without all the willy waving thatís ingrained into cars.

  29. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    EVs are a dead end.

    They won't go away entirely as for people looking for a shopping trolley for low mileage local use can live with them, so long as they have access to a proper car for holidays, day trips, weekends away at the coast or to to see the folks etc - or they live in London.(Sadly, that's where our decision-makers live so we can guarantee some metro-centric stupidity in transport policy).

    EVs (even Teslas) are just so compromised compared to proper cars in terms of poor range (and consequent range anxiety), slow rechaging compared to ICE, absence of sufficient charging points, and of course, purchase price - not to mention their very dubious environmental impact due to the evironmental damage done by the materials that go into them, or the questionable ecological footprint of renewable sources of electricity.

    There are quite a few articles now by writers who went EV without thinking it through / without an ICE alternative to hand, and it's had a major impact on their lives when it comes to limiting their travel options.

    At some point the world will switch to a mix of nuclear and renewables (preferably renewables that are more sustainable than what's in use at the moment - all those tons of steel and concrete, and the many transportation miles involved in their manufacture and setup take an age to pay back), and cars will switch to hydrogen, which behaves much more like petrol and diesel in practical terms. The political push to force carmakers to move away from ICE is forcing them towards EVs at the moment but I can't see that lasting once hydrogen becomes a real proposition. I suspect policymaker awareness of this is the main reason little is being done right now to build EV charging infrastructure.

    The best thing buyers can do right now is go on strike - don't buy, and if you must buy, buy only ICE, don't pay the stupid asking prices for EV and don't put up with the nonsense of EVs being worse than proper cars on every concievable measure (including evironmental impact).

    Of course you'll always get EV fanboyz, most of whom venture outside the M25 (see above) but they will always be in a minority. The rest of the country does not live like your average Londoner, some of us need to do proper commuting, not necessarily to places where recharing will be easily available.

    At the business park in Reading where I used to regularly commute pre-covid, you had to be in before 9 to even get a parking space some days - chances of a decent proportion of these cars being able to recharge before a trip home? Zero. Of course Covid has changed some of the practicalities of that for now but I have a suspicion things will eventually creep back to something closer to what it was before.

    I'm planning to retire soon and had intended to buy a new car to do me for the foreseeable, but the diesel Jag XF will be fine for another few years while things become clear. The one thing I absolutely won't do is run off and do something stupid like buy an EV.

    You are bigweb and I claim my £5.00

  30. #130
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    Crikey kk do you not dig EVís 🤣🤣🤣

    Twelve months in, live in rural Suffolk, just over 12k miles and I could not be happier, itís a breeze.

    Pitch

  31. #131
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    The biggest single advantage offered by EVs is the improvement in air quality in urban areas, other than that I remain unconvinced that the benefits are significant.

    I could easily convert to an EV, I have plenty of parking space for recharging, most of my journeys are local and for pleasure rather than work/ commuting, but Iíve no intention to change until I have to. I do around 3000 miles pa and I donít really care about fuel costs or road tax, I enjoy the car I own and Iíll continue to do so.

    I do care about local air quality because we can influence it, but the CO2/ global warming problem is a much wider issue and apart from giving me a warm feeling thereís no point in personally trying to reduce my carbon footprint.......I'll leave that to the sandal- wearing bean- eating tree-huggers.

  32. #132
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    So my 2.5 year old petrol Velar has somehow magically gone up in value over the last 6 months to the point where after 30 months of ownership what a dealer would buy it for would clear the PCP balance, provide the deposit on a new Audi Q4 Etron and I'd save £140 a month in PCP payments. Any reason I shouldn't be biting their hand off?

    The current value of the Velar after 2.5 years and 13k miles is 82% of what I paid for it new. How on earth is that even possible?!!? Crazy times

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    Last edited by ryanb741; 11th August 2021 at 22:08.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    The biggest single advantage offered by EVs is the improvement in air quality in urban areas, other than that I remain unconvinced that the benefits are significant.

    I could easily convert to an EV, I have plenty of parking space for recharging, most of my journeys are local and for pleasure rather than work/ commuting, but Iíve no intention to change until I have to. I do around 3000 miles pa and I donít really care about fuel costs or road tax, I enjoy the car I own and Iíll continue to do so.

    I do care about local air quality because we can influence it, but the CO2/ global warming problem is a much wider issue and apart from giving me a warm feeling thereís no point in personally trying to reduce my carbon footprint.......I'll leave that to the sandal- wearing bean- eating tree-huggers.
    I feel that currently EV's are not a problem solved, it's an attempt to address the issue.

    For those that drive a Prius you need to do 65000 miles to be totally carbon neutral, but I accept that during those miles you are not directly polluting.

    The national charging infrastructure (Tesla aside) is a mixed bag and unreliable - I rarely stop for a coffee for an hour, let alone do this to charge a car.

    It is work in progress and I admire early adopters who it works for.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  34. #134
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    Depends on the delivery date of the Audi, Ryan.

    Do you have charging at home?

  35. #135
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    I'd be happy ish to switch to EV for the next car - in a few years time - if they were a lot more affordable, and I do mean a lot. But the major issue for me is the lack of a quick, available and reliable charging infrastructure. We have to park on-road and, whilst we have our 'own' parking spot right outside our home (basically because our neighbours and their visitors all stick to a gentleman's agreement), we are just never going to have our own personal charging point and I think that's crucial for any EV owner.

    Unless there is a seismic shift in things, ICE will probably still be going strong for the next twenty years, and likely even longer than that. So it will be ICE again for me - and, at my age, that technology will probably see me out.
    Last edited by Mouse; 11th August 2021 at 22:12.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Depends on the delivery date of the Audi, Ryan.

    Do you have charging at home?
    So I could get one already in a showroom next month, else around 6 months if built to spec.

    I was paying £250 a month to park in our underground parking at home (which has charging) but I moved the car to the flats next door where a lady charges me £90 a month instead. No charging there as it is overground but in Kingston there are lots of public chargers with high charge speeds (40 mins or so for a full charge) so I figured every couple of weeks or so I could use one of those

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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post

    What is it about EVs that prickle so many? Donít like them, donít get one, itíll be many years before you canít buy even a used ICE. I donít go around telling people that theyíre wrong to drive a petrol or diesel car, so what gives?

    Clearly you are pretty dug in on the whole EV thing, to the point where you can't admit there are any issues. Actually the issues are pretty significant:

    The worst aspect is that they are only a fig leaf in terms of environmental impact (not just Co2 emissions, but other impacts too) when you include both the manufacturing side including (grossly unsustainable) mining of raw materials, battery manufacture and disposal, and electricity generation.

    Next is range, where the official figures are simply not worth the paper they are printed on, and motoring journalists collude in this by reporting figures without use of heating, aircon or lights.

    Finally, they are also more expensive than normal cars - stupidly so in many cases when you list out their failings in direct comparison, and it takes quite a few years (if ever) for fuel costs to make up the price difference (by which time you have hugely expensive battery packs to replace ...)

    Great for virtue signalling though and maybe that's where most of us get irritated.

    The whole thing has been rushed into, before proper technology is available to provide like for like replacement for ICE vehicles. Of course people who are invested in it are going claim it's all fine and dandy (with the exception of a few brave journos who have written at length on their regret). But I still maintain, even if ICE is going to disappear, EV is not good enough as a replacement (indeed, compared to ICE, EV has barely improved in 120 years). Hydrogen fuel cells though, once the teething issues can be dealt with, have to be the future.

    The biggest impact of the move away from ICE will be on the more poorly paid. My son is a care worker in rural Somerset, he has a 25 mile each way trip and runs a £1000 banger. (I'm looking to get him something a bit better soon). Where's he supposed to get £30k from for a glorified milk float?

    The Uk is less than 1% of world carbon emissions (despite being the fifth largest economy) and is already one of the lowest carbon societies in the world. On the global scale, it matters very little what we do from here, and everything about what the US, China and India do - it's all down to geopolitics.

    But the only thing less edifying that individual people virtue signalling is countries doing it, eg Macron and Johnson willy waving over banning ICE - frankly a disgrace, cheap, headline-grabbing PR pumped out long before any sensible plan has been put together.

  38. #138
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    So I could get one already in a showroom next month, else around 6 months if built to spec.

    I was paying £250 a month to park in our underground parking at home (which has charging) but I moved the car to the flats next door where a lady charges me £90 a month instead. No charging there as it is overground but in Kingston there are lots of public chargers with high charge speeds (40 mins or so for a full charge) so I figured every couple of weeks or so I could use one of those

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    If the boot is big enough and you/the wife have done a test drive and seem happy I'd go for it personally. Worse case you just swap the parking and pay the extra £160 which presumably includes charging.

    No idea if dealers do this but I'd try get the one 6 months out with a binding trade in price for yours and see if prices go up further in that time and sell it elsewhere before/after collection if they do.

    Alternatively just take the one in the dealership and move on, one less thing to mentally juggle.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    The Uk is less than 1% of world carbon emissions (despite being the fifth largest economy) and is already one of the lowest carbon societies in the world. On the global scale, it matters very little what we do from here, and everything about what the US, China and India do - it's all down to geopolitics.

    .
    Whilst I agree that the eco credentials of EV aren't quite as black and white as may be portrayed, emissions and responsibility for the environment is something we are all equally responsible for. We can't lay the blame at high emissions countries as we are a consumer society that purchases lots of (frequently unnecessary) goods from these countries and that in itself is helping fuel the issue. I'm not saying EVs are the answer I just wanted to counter the statement that what we do in the UK doesn't matter for the environment as for me at least I think it does


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  40. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    Clearly you are pretty dug in on the whole EV thing, to the point where you can't admit there are any issues. Actually the issues are pretty significant:

    The worst aspect is that they are only a fig leaf in terms of environmental impact (not just Co2 emissions, but other impacts too) when you include both the manufacturing side including (grossly unsustainable) mining of raw materials, battery manufacture and disposal, and electricity generation.

    Next is range, where the official figures are simply not worth the paper they are printed on, and motoring journalists collude in this by reporting figures without use of heating, aircon or lights.

    Finally, they are also more expensive than normal cars - stupidly so in many cases when you list out their failings in direct comparison, and it takes quite a few years (if ever) for fuel costs to make up the price difference (by which time you have hugely expensive battery packs to replace ...)

    Great for virtue signalling though and maybe that's where most of us get irritated.

    The whole thing has been rushed into, before proper technology is available to provide like for like replacement for ICE vehicles. Of course people who are invested in it are going claim it's all fine and dandy (with the exception of a few brave journos who have written at length on their regret). But I still maintain, even if ICE is going to disappear, EV is not good enough as a replacement (indeed, compared to ICE, EV has barely improved in 120 years). Hydrogen fuel cells though, once the teething issues can be dealt with, have to be the future.

    The biggest impact of the move away from ICE will be on the more poorly paid. My son is a care worker in rural Somerset, he has a 25 mile each way trip and runs a £1000 banger. (I'm looking to get him something a bit better soon). Where's he supposed to get £30k from for a glorified milk float?

    The Uk is less than 1% of world carbon emissions (despite being the fifth largest economy) and is already one of the lowest carbon societies in the world. On the global scale, it matters very little what we do from here, and everything about what the US, China and India do - it's all down to geopolitics.

    But the only thing less edifying that individual people virtue signalling is countries doing it, eg Macron and Johnson willy waving over banning ICE - frankly a disgrace, cheap, headline-grabbing PR pumped out long before any sensible plan has been put together.
    Any you think that hydrogen is the future despite the huge issues facing it yet refuse to believe the validity of EV cars 15 years down the line?

    I take it you’re aware of the huge energy required to extract the hydrogen from water or are we just going to ignore that?

    Lets not also forget the huge infrastructure change to get rid of fossils fuels and introduce hydrogen?
    Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 11th August 2021 at 22:42.

  41. #141
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    If the boot is big enough and you/the wife have done a test drive and seem happy I'd go for it personally. Worse case you just swap the parking and pay the extra £160 which presumably includes charging.

    No idea if dealers do this but I'd try get the one 6 months out with a binding trade in price for yours and see if prices go up further in that time and sell it elsewhere before/after collection if they do.

    Alternatively just take the one in the dealership and move on, one less thing to mentally juggle.
    Cheers and yes the dealers do have binding trade in prices which works well actually as it would be an additional 6 months paid off the PCP.

    I will try it out - it just seems to be the most no brainer model for what we need and is a lot cheaper than I was expecting (not that they are giving them away but the price is much lower than the larger e-tron SUV)

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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    Clearly you are pretty dug in on the whole EV thing, to the point where you can't admit there are any issues. Actually the issues are pretty significant:

    The worst aspect is that they are only a fig leaf in terms of environmental impact (not just Co2 emissions, but other impacts too) when you include both the manufacturing side including (grossly unsustainable) mining of raw materials, battery manufacture and disposal, and electricity generation.

    Next is range, where the official figures are simply not worth the paper they are printed on, and motoring journalists collude in this by reporting figures without use of heating, aircon or lights.

    Finally, they are also more expensive than normal cars - stupidly so in many cases when you list out their failings in direct comparison, and it takes quite a few years (if ever) for fuel costs to make up the price difference (by which time you have hugely expensive battery packs to replace ...)

    Great for virtue signalling though and maybe that's where most of us get irritated.

    The whole thing has been rushed into, before proper technology is available to provide like for like replacement for ICE vehicles. Of course people who are invested in it are going claim it's all fine and dandy (with the exception of a few brave journos who have written at length on their regret). But I still maintain, even if ICE is going to disappear, EV is not good enough as a replacement (indeed, compared to ICE, EV has barely improved in 120 years). Hydrogen fuel cells though, once the teething issues can be dealt with, have to be the future.

    The biggest impact of the move away from ICE will be on the more poorly paid. My son is a care worker in rural Somerset, he has a 25 mile each way trip and runs a £1000 banger. (I'm looking to get him something a bit better soon). Where's he supposed to get £30k from for a glorified milk float?

    The Uk is less than 1% of world carbon emissions (despite being the fifth largest economy) and is already one of the lowest carbon societies in the world. On the global scale, it matters very little what we do from here, and everything about what the US, China and India do - it's all down to geopolitics.

    But the only thing less edifying that individual people virtue signalling is countries doing it, eg Macron and Johnson willy waving over banning ICE - frankly a disgrace, cheap, headline-grabbing PR pumped out long before any sensible plan has been put together.
    Iím not Ďdug iní at all, they work just fine for me, and Iíve said already they wonít work for everybody.

    Iíve also pointed out in this and the other thread that there are significant issues to overcome, but then that would be the case even if EVs werenít a thing.

    ICE cars are not made out of fairy dust, and nor will Hydrogen cars be. Hydrogen itself requires a huge amount of energy to create, Google steam reforming of natural gas which is how most of it is made as of now.

    The fossil fuel infrastructure didnít spring up overnight either, it had to be built, as will be the electric one.

    Your son doesnít need a £30k EV either to do a 50 mile round trip, but then I think you know that. EVs are getting better and cheaper all the time, and used ones will of course flow down through the market.

    Choice is good, youíre not being forced to do anything for a decade or more.
    Last edited by Tooks; 11th August 2021 at 22:53.

  43. #143
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    Out of curiosity do folks with electric vehicles also run another Ev OR ice car in their household...just wondering really.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Out of curiosity do folks with electric vehicles also run another Ev OR ice car in their household...just wondering really.
    That will depend on the motoring needs of the household, obviously, but my wife has just gone EV as well after 6 years of watching me make them work. Albeit with a few teething issues early on, itís true.

    She actually loves the idea of Ďrefuellingí at home, and enjoys the way they drive, and sheís not an idiot either! ;-)

    Iím actually thinking about an ICE car as a play thing again, Iíd like to reacquaint myself with an early Boxster, I love the engine note and I like getting the spannerís out now and again. Two things I do miss with regard to EVs.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    So my 2.5 year old petrol Velar has somehow magically gone up in value over the last 6 months to the point where after 30 months of ownership what a dealer would buy it for would clear the PCP balance, provide the deposit on a new Audi Q4 Etron and I'd save £140 a month in PCP payments. Any reason I shouldn't be biting their hand off?

    The current value of the Velar after 2.5 years and 13k miles is 82% of what I paid for it new. How on earth is that even possible?!!? Crazy times

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    Get biting !

    Have gone for one. A fair bit of space in them especially for kids seats in the back. Fair bit cheaper than the other Audi EV and they do not seem to be leaving much out of the package.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Whilst I agree that the eco credentials of EV aren't quite as black and white as may be portrayed, emissions and responsibility for the environment is something we are all equally responsible for. We can't lay the blame at high emissions countries as we are a consumer society that purchases lots of (frequently unnecessary) goods from these countries and that in itself is helping fuel the issue. I'm not saying EVs are the answer I just wanted to counter the statement that what we do in the UK doesn't matter for the environment as for me at least I think it does
    I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter very much. Yes it's true our carbon emissions are low because we shut down our industry and exported much of them. But the fact remains, what we may or may not do from here, having already taken much of the pain, is a little more than a rounding error in the grand scheme.

    I agree on consumption, change is very important - far too much of what we consume is not sustainable. I'm not arguing any of that.

    But my main point above - which none of the EV boosters addressed - is that, taken in the round, EVs are not 'green' in any sense other than the superficial, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. Bragging rights are misplaced.
    Last edited by kk; 11th August 2021 at 23:36.

  47. #147
    I understand that solid state batteries are coming along which promise to be cheaper, smaller, higher capacity, safer, and faster-charging. If true, this will change the electric car equation quite dramatically. Lower costs, lighter, longer range, and quicker to "refuel". Might make today's EVs an historical stepping stone. The technology isn't nearly mature yet.

    Lots of companies are working on solid state batteries. One of the largest, with hundreds of patents already is... Toyota. Rumoured to be releasing a car with such batteries as early as this year. For those that don't buy a car often, it might be worth sitting this one out for a while. There will still be plenty of support for ICE for the next decade or three. And who knows, hydrogen fuel cells ("fool cells" as Musk would say) might turn out to be an alternative after all.

    TT (no car at all #insert_halo_emoji)

  48. #148
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    If i want to go electric I have the precisely the choice of one vehicle.

    https://www.brotherwood.com/wheelcha...issan-env-200/
    Cheers,

    Ben



    ..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers


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  49. #149
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    Out of interest, are there any members on here whoíve had an EV and chosen to go back to ICE?

    Itís all well and good all the naysayers sprouting on about how bad it is but real world views from those whoíve done it and gone back to ICE would be perhaps more relevant.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by kk View Post
    I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter very much. Yes it's true our carbon emissions are low because we shut down our industry and exported much of them. But the fact remains, what we may or may not do from here, having already taken much of the pain, is a little more than a rounding error in the grand scheme.

    I agree on consumption, change is very important - far too much of what we consume is not sustainable. I'm not arguing any of that.

    But my main point above - which none of the EV boosters addressed - is that, taken in the round, EVs are not 'green' in any sense other than the superficial, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. Bragging rights are misplaced.
    It seems to me that only the detractors of EVs who seem to shout the claims of them being Ďgreení.

    Letís be clear, the only Ďgreení car is no car at all.

    Every credible study into this that Iíve seen has concluded that EVs are a lower carbon option than an equivalent ICE vehicle, in most developed countries with a good mix of renewables thrown into the generation side. As the electricity generation gets greener, then so do all the electric cars using it. How is that a bad thing?

    Iím not on here to push electric cars, but I canít ignore the untruths that get posted whenever this topic comes up. Iím here because I like watches, I just happen to drive an electric car is all, and for a number of years. If anybody has ever seen me bragging about it, then shoot me.

    When your current car is up for change, consider an EV is all Iím saying, they certainly wonít make things any worse, and the local air quality will thank you if nothing else.

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