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Thread: Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

  1. #1001
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    I’ve had my Tesla M3 performance for 10 days and have done 370 miles so far. It’s quite unbelievable, and the acceleration in performance mode is an absolute madman. There is absolutely nothing I dislike about it. I’m obviously shallow, but the 20” Über Turbine wheels are incredibly cool too.

    Fuel costs are about 5p per mile if I charge at work and about 4p per mile if I charge night rate at home. I know I’m in the honeymoon period but it’s the dogs danglies, and very much the future

    D


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  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    The range in the Zoe does seem to suffer badly in cold weather. In theory it should be good for 250+ miles per charge but my wife’s got one and it is more like 160 this time of year. The last couple of weeks whilst the weather has been colder it has displayed a message that the regen was limited due to a cold battery which can’t be helping. In contrast my E-tron should do 240 in optimal conditions and is still showing 210 this week with heaters, seat warming, lights etc on.


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    Does that effect braking - don't EVs have less effective brakes (drum even) because they rely on this?

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Does that effect braking - don't EVs have less effective brakes (drum even) because they rely on this?
    EVs have brakes that are as effective as any other car, it’s just that they can also recover energy when slowing down via the motor is the better way of thinking about it.

    Regen ‘braking’ is not relied on to slow the vehicle down, as if the battery is fully charged there won’t be any of it anyway.

    Drum brakes are actually a good idea on an EV as one of the downsides is that the rear brakes in particular usually corrode before they wear out, due to them recovering energy via the motor so much of the time, if that’s how you’re driving at least.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    The range in the Zoe does seem to suffer badly in cold weather. In theory it should be good for 250+ miles per charge but my wife’s got one and it is more like 160 this time of year. The last couple of weeks whilst the weather has been colder it has displayed a message that the regen was limited due to a cold battery which can’t be helping. In contrast my E-tron should do 240 in optimal conditions and is still showing 210 this week with heaters, seat warming, lights etc on.


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    Thanks. Good to know albeit a little frustrating. I did know having the car at this time of year wasn’t my best choice but as I don’t pay for electricity (it’s part of the subscription) charging regularly is fine. But yesterday was a pain.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Do you guys register with all the different apps? Do I really have to sign up with Zap-Map, chargemaster, shell recharge and BP?

    Signed up with BP earlier as that is the closest fast charger and they want to send me out a keychain or a card. Do you really need this or can you just use your phone?
    I have Podpoint for Tesco & Source London is worth joining as they have lots of chargers but are expensive. Everything else I manage PAYG apart from SC which are on your car account.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    EVs have brakes that are as effective as any other car, it’s just that they can also recover energy when slowing down via the motor is the better way of thinking about it.

    Regen ‘braking’ is not relied on to slow the vehicle down, as if the battery is fully charged there won’t be any of it anyway.

    Drum brakes are actually a good idea on an EV as one of the downsides is that the rear brakes in particular usually corrode before they wear out, due to them recovering energy via the motor so much of the time, if that’s how you’re driving at least.
    Why do most cars have disc brakes then? Surely because they are far more effective.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why do most cars have disc brakes then? Surely because they are far more effective.
    Most cars don’t have regenerative braking to help them.
    Yes hybrids may have it, but I don’t think they have it to the extent full electric cars have it.
    I drive mine with maximum regen on and the moment I take my foot off the brake, it starts slowing dramatically. A regular car won’t do that.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Does that effect braking - don't EVs have less effective brakes (drum even) because they rely on this?
    It might effect the one pedal driving as less regen when lifting off but overall braking doesn’t seem to be any worse. It doesn’t get driven like a Tesla m3p though!


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  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Most cars don’t have regenerative braking to help them.
    Yes hybrids may have it, but I don’t think they have it to the extent full electric cars have it.
    I drive mine with maximum regen on and the moment I take my foot off the brake, it starts slowing dramatically. A regular car won’t do that.
    Exactly and if regenerative braking is limited, braking will be poorer than desired.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why do most cars have disc brakes then? Surely because they are far more effective.
    Cost, fashion?

    HGVs have drum brakes, the aircraft I work on have a form of ‘drum brakes’ too. They can certainly stop things.

    In the Zoe in question, the regen will be on the front axle anyway, it’s where the motor is, the rears will be doing the same as on any car.

    When regen is low, the discs will just do a bit more.

    There are automotive engineers who will have thought of this stuff.

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Exactly and if regenerative braking is limited, braking will be poorer than desired.
    The brakes are ‘sized’ for the car assuming no regen, the same as any other vehicle.

    If regen braking is available, the the conventional brakes just do a bit less work.

    It would be dangerous to rely on something to brake the vehicle if it wasn’t always available.

  12. #1012
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    As already said you can choose to have full regen or no regen so the brakes are fine and clearly given to assume zero regen or they wouldn’t be allowed to be sold let alone pass any safety tests.

    Tesla rep told me full regen makes brake discs (or pads, can’t remember) last 3x longer. Two days driving it and I’m fine with regen, very predictable re stopping distance.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why do most cars have disc brakes then? Surely because they are far more effective.
    Im not answering the other questions but the answer to yours is yes they are, for the simple reason they can dissipate the heat better than drum brakes.
    You would generally get greater braking from brake drums as the surface area is bigger and shoes have a self servo effect under braking, discs however are out in the open and also nowadays most are vented so it generally ends up that disc brakes are more effective.

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    As already said you can choose to have full regen or no regen so the brakes are fine and clearly given to assume zero regen or they wouldn’t be allowed to be sold let alone pass any safety tests.

    Tesla rep told me full regen makes brake discs (or pads, can’t remember) last 3x longer. Two days driving it and I’m fine with regen, very predictable re stopping distance.
    I'm sure I read somewhere that the drum brakes on the back of the VAG EVs such as the ID.3 etc are expected to last a really long time. Good article here: https://topgear-autoguide.com/catego...ense1607847651

  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
    I'm sure I read somewhere that the drum brakes on the back of the VAG EVs such as the ID.3 etc are expected to last a really long time. Good article here: https://topgear-autoguide.com/catego...ense1607847651
    150k km/93k miles between service apparently, obviously dependent on how heavy you are on the brakes.

  16. #1016
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    I'll be going electric in about 5y time in Portugal. The charge points are just not ready yet here in deepest EU but hope they are soon. Meanwhile I am going with a Kia Nero Hybrid HEV (mild hybrid) and plan to sell once we have our solar panels installed at home..
    “ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    I'll be going electric in about 5y time in Portugal. The charge points are just not ready yet here in deepest EU but hope they are soon. Meanwhile I am going with a Kia Nero Hybrid HEV (mild hybrid) and plan to sell once we have our solar panels installed at home..
    I have receommended my father looks at Plug in Hybrid as it seems to be the best compromise for him. If you are going solar it could be worth looking at a Plug In Hybrid so you get free/cheap local journeys without the hassle/range anxiety of going full electric.

    Whilst I love my Tesla the company car/BIK benefits make it much more compelling than a private purchase might need more careful thought.

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    150k km/93k miles between service apparently, obviously dependent on how heavy you are on the brakes.
    most braking in an ev is regen so thats probably why.

  19. #1019
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    Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

    Despite there being far less wear and tear on the brakes of an EV compared to an ICE car, my robbing local Skoda dealership have told me that the brake fluid has to be changed every 18K or two years on the Enyaq, whichever comes first.
    Given that my car is a taxi and it will probably do 40K a year, they expect me to believe that my car will need TWO changes of brake fluid a year.
    Cheeky bar stewards. Looks like this is the way dealerships are going to try and claw back money on servicing EV’s.

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Despite there being far less wear and tear on the brakes of an EV compared to an ICE car, my robbing local Skoda dealership have told me that the brake fluid has to be changed every 18K or two years on the Enyaq, whichever comes first.
    Given that my car is a taxi and it will probably do 40K a year, they expect me to believe that my car will need TWO changes of brake fluid a year.
    Cheeky bar stewards. Looks like this is the way dealerships are going to try and claw back money on servicing EV’s.
    Yes, I expect they’re looking at ways to recoup some of that lost servicing and parts revenue.

    I’ve looked at the servicing list for the ID.3 and it’s amounts to a pollen filter, checking of your charge cables, a high voltage battery level check and recharge if it’s ‘low’, and a high voltage cable check under the bonnet.

    Oh, and the brake fluid, but not as frequently as the Skoda folks are telling you.

  21. #1021
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    It gets worse. They told me that the service is £189, which doesn’t sound so bad, but that doesn’t include the cost of changing the pollen filter and the brake fluid, which, if you do the sort of mileage I do, needs to be done twice a year according to them.
    I think I’ll call Skoda UK and get the info on servicing direct from them.

  22. #1022
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Changing brake fluid every two years has been a thing for a while now (both ICE and EV) and, in my opinion, a con to part people from their cash.

    Servicing of EVs really isn’t anything more than a very expensive check of the car. An MOT is cheaper and more thorough. I had my van serviced when it was £100 and included breakdown recovery (including flat battery) but stopped when the price doubled.

    As most of a service on an ICE vehicle is engine/gearbox related, questions over what is included in an EV service are always avoided or fudged over by every dealer.

  23. #1023
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    My E-tron just had its 2 year inspection at a cost of £299. Not exactly sure what they did since that didn’t include changing the brake fluid so it has to go back for that. No courtesy cars these days either. Thankfully it’s a company car so I didn’t have to pay otherwise I would be querying exactly how they earned their money!


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  24. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Changing brake fluid every two years has been a thing for a while now (both ICE and EV) and, in my opinion, a con to part people from their cash.
    Changing brake fluid every two years I can sort of live with, although like yourself I think it’s not needed, but the robbing cows who quoted me the other day suggested that due to the mileage I do coupled with their policy, I’d have to do FOUR brake fluid changes in two years.

  25. #1025
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    6 weeks into my BMW ix3 which has been mainly very enjoyable.

    getting to grips with charging logistics, have a 7kw charger at home and having switched to Octopus go I just charge it every night from 1am - 4am.

    have sussed that the fast chargers are a great assistant when needed and on Saturday I was doing the return leg from Birmingham and then was having to go to London & back. The 7kw was never going to cut it in the 3 hour available, so used he BMW app and stopped 10 miles from home at Lidl's. bought a few bargains, grabbed a coffee whilst the 50kw charger filled it in about 40 minutes.

    not something i want to do too often but proved to me that it is still practical with a slight change of planning and mindset.

    range at a steady 60 mph is in keeping with BMWs 280 mile ish target, but this reduces pretty damn quick when you put your foot down.

  26. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Changing brake fluid every two years has been a thing for a while now (both ICE and EV) and, in my opinion, a con to part people from their cash.

    Servicing of EVs really isn’t anything more than a very expensive check of the car. An MOT is cheaper and more thorough. I had my van serviced when it was £100 and included breakdown recovery (including flat battery) but stopped when the price doubled.

    As most of a service on an ICE vehicle is engine/gearbox related, questions over what is included in an EV service are always avoided or fudged over by every dealer.
    Tesla actually refused to change my (DOT3) brake fluid at service - saying the brakes have so little use they just test the hygroscopy of the fluid and if it is OK that is that. Personally I would have preferred the fluid changed just so the bleed nipples etc. get moved from time to time.

  27. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Changing brake fluid every two years I can sort of live with, although like yourself I think it’s not needed
    I’m sure that you’re already aware but brake fluid is hygroscopic. This means that as it absorbs water over time, braking efficiency will decrease to a point of becoming dangerous.

    Therefore, brake fluid changes should be done on time, not mileage. So, yes the ignorant Skoda service reps are indeed trying to rob you.

  28. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    Tesla actually refused to change my (DOT3) brake fluid at service - saying the brakes have so little use they just test the hygroscopy of the fluid and if it is OK that is that. Personally I would have preferred the fluid changed just so the bleed nipples etc. get moved from time to time.
    The crazy thing is that they supposedly change the brake fluid without removing the wheels to get at the brake calipers so the bleed nipples don’t even get touched.

    Quite how they do it escapes me and the dealers refuse to explain how it’s done. I’m of the belief that they only actually change the fluid in the reservoir so that it looks nice and clean!

  29. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    The crazy thing is that they supposedly change the brake fluid without removing the wheels to get at the brake calipers so the bleed nipples don’t even get touched.

    Quite how they do it escapes me and the dealers refuse to explain how it’s done. I’m of the belief that they only actually change the fluid in the reservoir so that it looks nice and clean!
    Depends where the nipples are (snigger) some are on the inside of the calliper and don’t need wheels removing. Old school boys like me like to push the fluid through by pumping the pedal I’d guess they do it with a vacuum bleeder at the dealers.

  30. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo73 View Post
    I’m sure that you’re already aware but brake fluid is hygroscopic. This means that as it absorbs water over time, braking efficiency will decrease to a point of becoming dangerous.

    Therefore, brake fluid changes should be done on time, not mileage. So, yes the ignorant Skoda service reps are indeed trying to rob you.
    I have my Merc serviced by a local Indy and he checks the brake fluid for water content. If he says it needs doing, I get it done.
    He’s that rare thing though as in a decent honest mechanic who won’t change what doesn’t need changing.

  31. #1031
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    I've just had an email from HR that we've signed up for an Electric Car Scheme (salary sacrifice type).
    I'll await details but it may actually make me think seriously about getting one of these.

    Anyone else on a similar scheme?

    Cheers,

    Adam.

  32. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyloon View Post
    I've just had an email from HR that we've signed up for an Electric Car Scheme (salary sacrifice type).
    I'll await details but it may actually make me think seriously about getting one of these.

    Anyone else on a similar scheme?

    Cheers,

    Adam.
    The deals on salary sacrifice often look 'too good to pass up' but it's important to be aware of the pensions tax implications when you return the car.

    It's complicated, but a number of my colleagues were stung with pensions tax penalties because of the 'pay rise' on returning their vehicles at the end of the lease period. I believe it mostly affects those dwindling numbers who are on a DB type pension, but it may be worth checking with a financial adviser.

    Best wishes,
    Martyn.

  33. #1033
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyloon View Post
    I've just had an email from HR that we've signed up for an Electric Car Scheme (salary sacrifice type).
    I'll await details but it may actually make me think seriously about getting one of these.

    Anyone else on a similar scheme?

    Cheers,

    Adam.
    My Tesla M3P is a salary sacrifice on the NHS fleet scheme. It’s cheap upfront, but I will get an annual allowance tax charge on defined benefit pension growth at the end of the lease.

    Having done the man-maths very carefully, I’m about £250 per month better off than had I gone to Tesla for a PCP or outright purchase. If you have a defined benefit scheme, you need to model it very carefully. For me, the month of delivery makes a huge difference, as I could be anything between £300 per month better off, or £100 per month worse off leasing. It’s because of the difference of splitting my pension growth over two tax years rather than one.

    Dave


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  34. #1034
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, I'll check it out but I'm not on a final salary / DB pension so hopefully more worth it.


    Cheers,

    Adam.

  35. #1035
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    MG ZS Long Range

    Probably the best value for money EV in the UK.

  36. #1036
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    My place are in the process of launching a salary exchange (sacrifice) electric car scheme. I'm waiting on the launch event to find out more.

    While it doesn't really affect me I'm curious - does anyone have any experience of what businesses are doing with paying mileage allowances on expenses? Does the pence per mile you claim differ to running a private petrol/diesel/hybrid if you happen to have an electric car via salary sacrifice?

  37. #1037
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    Salary sacrifice is a total no brainer with an EV (DB pension aside).

    Regaridng the mileage point, most companies will pay the HMRC rate. If you have a company car (ICE) it is lower than the usual 45p.

    For EV I believe it is only 5p!

  38. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    Salary sacrifice is a total no brainer with an EV (DB pension aside).

    Regaridng the mileage point, most companies will pay the HMRC rate. If you have a company car (ICE) it is lower than the usual 45p.

    For EV I believe it is only 5p!
    Yes, for an expensed company EV, assuming you’re charging it at home, 5p is the business per mile rate and depending on the efficiency of your car and the rate you pay for your electricity, you’ll be doing well to break even.

    Not too bad still though if the company are covering the purchase, maintenance, insurance etc, and of course you’ve then got private use of it for no extra charge usually.

  39. #1039
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    With a salary sacrifice deal, what's the story if you're paid off or leave the employer?
    Is it your contract or the company's?

    Cheers,

    Adam.

  40. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyloon View Post
    With a salary sacrifice deal, what's the story if you're paid off or leave the employer?
    Is it your contract or the company's?

    Cheers,

    Adam.
    With our scheme you have to take it in as a private lease if you leave the company early.

    For me it was a no-brainer joining our salary sacrifice scheme though. My E-tron (a £76k car) works out at around £500/month net including insurance, maintenance etc.


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  41. #1041
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    With our scheme you have to take it in as a private lease if you leave the company early.

    For me it was a no-brainer joining our salary sacrifice scheme though. My E-tron (a £76k car) works out at around £500/month net including insurance, maintenance etc.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    Thanks for that.
    Will it still be £500 per month if you leave your employer (by your decision or theirs)?


    Cheers,

    Adam.

  42. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyloon View Post
    Thanks for that.
    Will it still be £500 per month if you leave your employer (by your decision or theirs)?


    Cheers,

    Adam.
    No, as it would then be a private lease it is then paid out of net pay so more like £1,000/month. It’s definitely something to think about if you are considering leaving your company.
    I also have a Renault Zoe on the same scheme for my wife and that works out at about £200/month net now but again would almost double as a private lease so I am unlikely to be leaving my company any time soon!


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  43. #1043
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    No, as it would then be a private lease it is then paid out of net pay so more like £1,000/month. It’s definitely something to think about if you are considering leaving your company.
    I also have a Renault Zoe on the same scheme for my wife and that works out at about £200/month net now but again would almost double as a private lease so I am unlikely to be leaving my company any time soon!


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    Thanks, that's kind of what I thought it may be.
    Golden handcuffs of a sort....


    Cheers,

    Adam.

  44. #1044
    Master senwar's Avatar
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    See the government have cut the Plug in Grant again - now £1500 (was £3000) and a max cap of £32k (was £40000).

    Not that long since the last cut

  45. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by senwar View Post
    See the government have cut the Plug in Grant again - now £1500 (was £3000) and a max cap of £32k (was £40000).

    Not that long since the last cut
    It was 35K before they dropped it to 32K. I would have opted for the Enyaq 80 instead of the 60 but the 80 at 39K didn’t get the grant.

  46. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by senwar View Post
    See the government have cut the Plug in Grant again - now £1500 (was £3000) and a max cap of £32k (was £40000).

    Not that long since the last cut
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    It was 35K before they dropped it to 32K. I would have opted for the Enyaq 80 instead of the 60 but the 80 at 39K didn’t get the grant.
    It was also £2500 before this latest cut.

  47. #1047
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    I reckon the money would be better spent on upgrading the charging network rather than subsidising the purchase price, that’s probably the main barrier to ownership rather than saving a couple of thousand on the upfront cost when many are bought on a lease anyway.


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  48. #1048
    Master senwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    It was 35K before they dropped it to 32K. I would have opted for the Enyaq 80 instead of the 60 but the 80 at 39K didn’t get the grant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    It was also £2500 before this latest cut.
    Apologies, didn't realise there'd been other cuts.

    Only time I had one (Golf GTE), it was £5k

  49. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by senwar View Post
    Apologies, didn't realise there'd been other cuts.

    Only time I had one (Golf GTE), it was £5k
    Obviously as the uptake increases, the level of incentive drops; it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re taken away altogether soon.

    Of course the next step after that is to introduce some form of taxation in order to recover the lost fuel duty. It was always going to happen and is now only two steps away.

  50. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Yes, for an expensed company EV, assuming you’re charging it at home, 5p is the business per mile rate and depending on the efficiency of your car and the rate you pay for your electricity, you’ll be doing well to break even.

    Not too bad still though if the company are covering the purchase, maintenance, insurance etc, and of course you’ve then got private use of it for no extra charge usually.
    Thanks for that insight.

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