Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

[Toshk]

£372 for my Ionic 6.

325bhp AWD with 605nm of torque.

[mutanthands]

It will increase for sure.

EV honeymoon period will continue to dwindle now the date has been pushed back. I suspect that the negative press will get some more traction as time goes on and the government (regardless of which one it is) will not want to loose revenue.

Personally it does not fit our usage currently and I am not prepared to pay the current quoted prices for car insurance (we pay less than £1k for 2 cars and I was quoted £1.5k for a Tesla with £500 excess).

I know insurance quotes vary massively depending on a myriad of factors (postcode, secure garage.etc), but we're up in North Yorkshire and pay nowhere near that for our Taycan.
I renewed it about 6 weeks ago and paid £650-ish with eSure. Combined with my other car, we are around the £800 mark p/a. My insurance actually went down by a few hundred compared to last year. Originally I was quoted £1.2k from Admiral, got them down to £1k before phoning around other insurers. Crazy variation for like-for-like quotes.

[David_D]

Luton airport fire? What do we reckon? Any reports?

[Taxboy]

Luton airport fire? What do we reckon? Any reports?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2427767.html
Believed to have started in a diesel car, which will come as a great disappointment to the Sun and Daily Fail

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

[Tooks]

Luton airport fire? What do we reckon? Any reports?

Well, people were quick to claim it was an EV, but the Fire Service have CCTV that shows a diesel RR Evoque had flames coming from under the bonnet.

Just like the last big car park fire in Liverpool, once plastic fuel tanks melt and the liquid fuel runs everywhere, it’s difficult to contain and it spreads quickly.

I just googled ‘Luton Airport Car Park Fire Cause’.

[hilly10]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2427767.html
Believed to have started in a diesel car, which will come as a great disappointment to the Sun and Daily Fail

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

Red herring. Gods knows how anyone could pinpoint which car started that is beyond me. Looking at the damage to cars on some photos which are a mangled wrecks it would be hard to determine. Quick to discount EV as they would be banned from enclosed car parks.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2427767.html
Believed to have started in a diesel car, which will come as a great disappointment to the Sun and Daily Fail

Utter speculation - from a fire investigation point of view it is far too early to tell.

[Taxboy]

Utter speculation - from a fire investigation point of view it is far too early to tell.

Don't shoot the messenger..that's the quote from the chief fire officer

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

[Dave+63]

Just chatting with a guy who said it must be an EV because the weight of all the EVs also made the building collapse!

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Don't shoot the messenger..that's the quote from the chief fire officer

It is irresponsible to put out a statement like that without the fire investigation team findings.

[Tooks]

Avoids unhelpful speculation a bit as well I suppose.

Footage and stills somewhere in this DM link.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-moment.html

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Avoids unhelpful speculation a bit as well I suppose.

Footage and stills somewhere in this DM link.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-moment.html

It would have been more appropriate to say that the cause was being investigated.

Video looks odd - the upper floor (roof) above seems to come down a split second before the 'explosion'?

[Tooks]

It would have been more appropriate to say that the cause was being investigated.

Video looks odd - the upper floor (roof) above seems to come down a split second before the 'explosion'?

I’m sure the official line is that it’s still being investigated, but the cacophony of questions from the media around ‘what EV was it that caught fire’ must have been deafening…

[swanbourne]

The British media is awash with horror stories about the latest insurance premiums. One Tesla Model Y owner was shocked to be asked to pay £5,000 ($6,000) for annual insurance, up from £1,000 ($1,200) the previous year.

Some insurers are getting nervous about the possible scale of liabilities. John Lewis Financial Services has paused insuring electric vehicles while its underwriter analyses risks and costs.

The cost of replacing batteries is causing insurance companies much angst. Batteries are usually mounted underneath the passenger compartment and cover a huge area. This makes them more vulnerable to damage, and their sensitivity adds to the problem. What would be a minor shunt for an internal combustion engine (ICE) powered vehicle can be catastrophic for an electric one.

A lack of engineering expertise often means the battery has to be written off. Batteries can cost up to half the purchase price of the car. A Jaguar I-Pace BEV is priced close to £70,000 ($86,000) in Britain after tax and a replacement battery will cost about £35,000.

Eddie

[Chinese_Alan]

So many people benefit from free chargers away from the workplace?

There are 4 12kw/h chargers about a 6 minute walk from my house at some shops without a parking limit.

Can’t last forever, granted..but I find it mad I turn up at some shops, don’t spend a penny and walk away with 300 miles.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I’m sure the official line is that it’s still being investigated, but the cacophony of questions from the media around ‘what EV was it that caught fire’ must have been deafening…

I can imagine!

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Well, people were quick to claim it was an EV, but the Fire Service have CCTV that shows a diesel RR Evoque had flames coming from under the bonnet.

Just like the last big car park fire in Liverpool, once plastic fuel tanks melt and the liquid fuel runs everywhere, it’s difficult to contain and it spreads quickly.

I just googled ‘Luton Airport Car Park Fire Cause’.

Diesel is difficult to ignite unless it's in a high pressure mist (read fuel injection system as an example) or when it ends up as a wide area liquid spill that comes into contact with something already burning.

[Kingstepper]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2427767.html
Believed to have started in a diesel car, which will come as a great disappointment to the Sun and Daily Fail

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

They shouldn’t be disappointed - although it could have started elsewhere, involvement of evs may have meant it couldn’t be contained and loss of the car park.

[Tooks]

Diesel is difficult to ignite unless it's in a high pressure mist (read fuel injection system as an example) or when it ends up as a wide area liquid spill that comes into contact with something already burning.

Yes, high pressure fuel rail letting go maybe, taking some electrics with it and igniting the fuel mist?

I’m sure the Fire Service investigation will get to the bottom of things in due course.

[David_D]

So many people benefit from free chargers away from the workplace

Free as in paid for by someone else!!!

HMRC have apparently now admitted that some of their views on reimbursement of home charging costs was wrong:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...loyer-bulletin

[Tooks]

Free as in paid for by someone else!!!

HMRC have apparently now admitted that some of their views on reimbursement of home charging costs was wrong:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...loyer-bulletin

This is good as I think it means that electricity used by an employee solely to charge a company vehicle for use on company business is now exempt from any tax liability on the employee when reimbursed, same as any other cost incurred by the employee in respect of their work vehicle?

[Tooks]

They shouldn’t be disappointed - although it could have started elsewhere, involvement of evs may have meant it couldn’t be contained and loss of the car park.

This should surely be a lack of fire suppression equipment in car parks issue, rather than desperately trying to make it an EVs are to blame even if they were just sitting there one?

The intensity of the fire from 1000 burning vehicles would be enough to destroy the car park anyway, same as the Liverpool Echo arena one on NYE 2017 that started in a Land Rover, EVs weren’t exactly common back then.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

This should surely be a lack of fire suppression equipment in car parks issue, rather than desperately trying to make it an EVs are to blame even if they were just sitting there one?

The intensity of the fire from 1000 burning vehicles would be enough to destroy the car park anyway, same as the Liverpool Echo arena one on NYE 2017 that started in a Land Rover, EVs weren’t exactly common back then.

There has been no specific legislation relating to fire suppression in car parks (multi storey) for some time now - only recommendations. Stuff often gets damaged/vandalised.

[wileeeeeey]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2427767.html
Believed to have started in a diesel car, which will come as a great disappointment to the Sun and Daily Fail

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk

Someone on another forum said this fire proves EVs should be banned from multi storey car parks and I made the joke if they’re banning EVs they should probably ban range rovers too.

No idea how JLR still manage to sell them.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Yes, high pressure fuel rail letting go maybe, taking some electrics with it and igniting the fuel mist?

I’m sure the Fire Service investigation will get to the bottom of things in due course.

If the vehicle was switched off and the engine wasn't running there would be next to no pressure in the common rail so thats highly unlikely. Its more than like an electrical issue

[Tooks]

If the vehicle was switched off and the engine wasn't running there would be next to no pressure in the common rail so thats highly unlikely. Its more than like an electrical issue

I thought it was moving/being driven? If not, then your theory fits better! 👍

[Pitch3110]

Fire Brigade fella on the news says it may have been a diesel, but they may just be saying that to divert from the real danger of driving an EV and how they can just randomly combust.

Took ages to put the fire out because of all the other EV’s exploding and the batteries burning for hours. They cannot be put out when on fire.

[Gareth-W]

I’ve always used 50% every three years as a reasonable rule of thumb although it’s generally greater for more expensive cars. In that scenario, 44% over two years, whimsy maybe a little high, is not outstandingly bad. Certainly no more so than, say, an M5 or AMG Merc.

Apples and Oranges Dave.

You really can’t compare a £60k Kia EV to an M5/E63 ICE car that lists at £100k plus. One follows a traditional depreciation curve over many years, the other follows a biblical one based on the last 18 months.

[Kingstepper]

This should surely be a lack of fire suppression equipment in car parks issue, rather than desperately trying to make it an EVs are to blame even if they were just sitting there one?

The intensity of the fire from 1000 burning vehicles would be enough to destroy the car park anyway, same as the Liverpool Echo arena one on NYE 2017 that started in a Land Rover, EVs weren’t exactly common back then.

I'm certainly not desperate, just repling to the daft fan-boy.

[Dave+63]

Apples and Oranges Dave.

You really can’t compare a £60k Kia EV to an M5/E63 ICE car that lists at £100k plus. One follows a traditional depreciation curve over many years, the other follows a biblical one based on the last 18 months.

I don’t get your Biblical depreciation comment, I’m just not seeing it. A Kia EV6 can be bought new for a little over £50k and two years old around £30k. That’s 40% over two years which is fairly compatible with a £50k ICE eg. A BMW 520d

[Gareth-W]

I don’t get your Biblical depreciation comment, I’m just not seeing it. A Kia EV6 can be bought new for a little over £50k and two years old around £30k. That’s 40% over two years which is fairly compatible with a £50k ICE eg. A BMW 520d

Ok, what business/the sharp end are you in please Dave? And what specific entry/exit experience do you have for EV’s/ICE’s too?

[Dave+63]

Ok, what business/the sharp end are you in please Dave? And what specific entry/exit experience do you have for EV’s/ICE’s too?

That’s irrelevant Gareth, I’m just looking at prices of vehicles for sale on Autotrader.

Your assertion is that EVs depreciate at an alarming rate, I’m just pointing out that thru are no worse than ICE in general.

You mentioned Kia so I compared an EV6 with a BMW 520d and found very little difference.

[jaytip]

Personally I think the only reason they are depreciating fast at the moment is because values have been artificially high for the last two years or so, and now the market is getting back to normal (still not there yet though)
I sold my first Enyaq just over a year ago for the same price I paid for it new 11 months before that. It was bog standard on a 71 plate and I got 33K for it.
Fast forward 12 months and and the cheapest 21 plate on autotrader is 25.5K. I’d say that’s normal depreciation. It’s just the market levelling out.


Sent from my iPad using TZ-UK mobile app

[Tooks]

Just on a huge diversion this morning as the M6 northbound in Cumbria is closed due to a lorry fire.

Bloody EVs! Grrrr….

[Longblackcoat]

Just on a huge diversion this morning as the M6 northbound in Cumbria is closed due to a lorry fire.

Bloody EVs! Grrrr….

It was almost certainly in flames because, er, the driver had left their fire extinguisher in their car at Luton Airport, which was almost certainly blocked in by burning Land Rovers that, er, might have been next to an EV.

"LUTON EV HORROR CAUSES M6 MOTORWAY MADNESS"

[Passenger]

I don’t get your Biblical depreciation comment, I’m just not seeing it. A Kia EV6 can be bought new for a little over £50k and two years old around £30k. That’s 40% over two years which is fairly compatible with a £50k ICE eg. A BMW 520d

50k plus for a Kia, biblical inflation.

[Gareth-W]

That’s irrelevant Gareth, I’m just looking at prices of vehicles for sale on Autotrader.

Your assertion is that EVs depreciate at an alarming rate, I’m just pointing out that thru are no worse than ICE in general.

You mentioned Kia so I compared an EV6 with a BMW 520d and found very little difference.

Ok, so someone who has 2 businesses in this exact automotive sector for almost 19 years is making an "irrelevant" statement. Right, ok..............back to "just looking at Autotrader" on line for you then!

[100thmonkey]

Ok, so someone who has 2 businesses in this exact automotive sector for almost 19 years is making an "irrelevant" statement. Right, ok..............back to "just looking at Autotrader" on line for you then!

Isnt that the same logic as being a 'watch specialist' having read TZ!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Saint-Just]

Ok, so someone who has 2 businesses in this exact automotive sector for almost 19 years is making an "irrelevant" statement. Right, ok..............back to "just looking at Autotrader" on line for you then!

On the other hand, regardless of your previous experience, Autotrader is where many people buy and sell their cars, including professionals. So the figures quoted by Dave+63 support his assertion when yours isn't really backed up.

If your business experience is relevant, by all means share your knowledge but please back it up, as it translates in the real world.

[Dave+63]

Ok, so someone who has 2 businesses in this exact automotive sector for almost 19 years is making an "irrelevant" statement. Right, ok..............back to "just looking at Autotrader" on line for you then!

I never said that your experience is irrelevant, but my business activities are in this instance.

I see that you work in this sector so presumably you are looking at trends and predicting future massive depreciation of EVs compared to ICE?

I can only look at the current prices and have commented on what I see. If you have insider knowledge on how things are going then I’m sure we’ would all be keen to hear about it, especially if it could save us all money in the long run.

[Dave+63]

50k plus for a Kia, biblical inflation.

Best not look at prices of the new EV9 then!

[Gareth-W]

On the other hand, regardless of your previous experience, Autotrader is where many people buy and sell their cars, including professionals. So the figures quoted by Dave+63 support his assertion when yours isn't really backed up.

If your business experience is relevant, by all means share your knowledge but please back it up, as it translates in the real world.

My own professional experience is current, past and wholly relevant. We have access to all the relevant Trade pricing platforms that the industry work with and see the changes and trends every single day and in actual transactions completed in the retail and auction sectors. Autotrader is a fine customer facing website for looking at cars/retail asking prices but it has no relevance to the wholesale or Trade pricing trends I have referenced. We also have access to the Autotrader Trade side (the "rear" of the on-line site you would look at) where a wealth of data is available for industry only subscribers.

And as for the figures quoted by Dave+63 I'm afraid they are not relevant without factual context and specifics. The list/asking price for a car seen for sale on-line vs. it's retail asking price (be that privately or with a Trade reseller) some years later is just not an accurate metric. Also that Autotrader on line "comparison" offers no commentary on any specific trend and an asking price is, obviously, not a selling price.

Here are a few Trade insight links to read, should you feel the need to broaden your knowledge on the EV market per se;

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...t-month/288053

https://www.am-online.com/news/deale...uptake-plummet

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-...-auction-sales

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/f...ices-inflated/

[hilly10]

As EVs become more mainstream and batteries are mass produced, prices will come down there is no doubt. I will hang on till then so will most people when buying their private car.

Looking at a BMW IX3 with 12k miles two years old list £68000 buy now £42000 some hit

[Gareth-W]

I never said that your experience is irrelevant, but my business activities are in this instance.

I see that you work in this sector so presumably you are looking at trends and predicting future massive depreciation of EVs compared to ICE?

I can only look at the current prices and have commented on what I see. If you have insider knowledge on how things are going then I’m sure we’ would all be keen to hear about it, especially if it could save us all money in the long run.

We work in the asset finance (Automotive and Aviation/Marine as well) and leasing market where predicting future residual values are core to the financial make up. These are, typically, over a 1-4 (sometimes 5 years as well) year window into the future. Plus we also work on the absolute true "live" values (EV's and ICE's) as well and that experience has shown the huge drop off in the EV market specifically since Q4 2022 and has not abated this year at all.

The best free advice anyone with this experience and knowledge could do is (as I had posted earlier in this thread) ensure that if an EV (any BEV) suits your lifestyle and purpose that it is purchased in a "protected" financial way i.e. funded, and not bought outright, with a guaranteed residual value, so via a PCP (where the GFV is shown) or PCH/BCH agreement (where the end life value is not seen by the agreement holder)

[noTAGlove]

The best free advice anyone with this experience and knowledge could do is (as I had posted earlier in this thread) ensure that if an EV (any BEV) suits your lifestyle and purpose that it is purchased in a "protected" financial way i.e. funded, and not bought outright, with a guaranteed residual value, so via a PCP (where the GFV is shown) or PCH/BCH agreement (where the end life value is not seen by the agreement holder)

Or buy a couple of year old used EV. Someone else has taken the massive depreciation.

[Saint-Just]

My own professional experience is current, past and wholly relevant. We have access to all the relevant Trade pricing platforms that the industry work with and see the changes and trends every single day and in actual transactions completed in the retail and auction sectors. Autotrader is a fine customer facing website for looking at cars/retail asking prices but it has no relevance to the wholesale or Trade pricing trends I have referenced. We also have access to the Autotrader Trade side (the "rear" of the on-line site you would look at) where a wealth of data is available for industry only subscribers.

And as for the figures quoted by Dave+63 I'm afraid they are not relevant without factual context and specifics. The list/asking price for a car seen for sale on-line vs. it's retail asking price (be that privately or with a Trade reseller) some years later is just not an accurate metric. Also that Autotrader on line "comparison" offers no commentary on any specific trend and an asking price is, obviously, not a selling price.

Here are a few Trade insight links to read, should you feel the need to broaden your knowledge on the EV market per se;

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...t-month/288053

https://www.am-online.com/news/deale...uptake-plummet

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-...-auction-sales

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/f...ices-inflated/

Thank you. It makes for a much more informative thread.

[Dave+63]

And as for the figures quoted by Dave+63 I'm afraid they are not relevant without factual context and specifics. The list/asking price for a car seen for sale on-line vs. it's retail asking price (be that privately or with a Trade reseller) some years later is just not an accurate metric. Also that Autotrader on line "comparison" offers no commentary on any specific trend and an asking price is, obviously, not a selling price.

Here are a few Trade insight links to read, should you feel the need to broaden your knowledge on the EV market per se;

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...t-month/288053

https://www.am-online.com/news/deale...uptake-plummet

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-...-auction-sales

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/f...ices-inflated/

I don’t disagree with any of what you’ve said, without enough data, it’s not possible to state anything as absolute. My example shows two points on two possibly very different depreciation curves.

That said, those reports you’ve linked to also need context, certainly the Autotrader one. Yes, EVs may have the highest depreciation over the past eight to ten months or so, but what was happening before that? If EVs held value much better than ICE then the current high depreciation should level out somewhere close to ICE values? Certainly, as consumers, we all like a bargain and if EVs become too cheap they will be snapped up and prices rise again.

Whilst it’s your job to predict future trends and values in order to operate a profitable business, as a consumer that isn’t so important for me as I don’t change my cars regularly.

At the end of the day though, two fifty grand cars will both depreciate down to scrap value over time, where on the curve you enter and leave the vehicle will determine what it ends up costing you.

[Pitfitter]

Best not look at prices of the new EV9 then!

I took one at one yesterday whilst in the dealers and decided that even with 50% discount I wouldn’t want one, styling and aerodynamics of a brick, a bit like the similar sized BMW suv just released, dealer said to me, “they expect me to sell that!

[mutanthands]

styling and aerodynamics of a brick

Pretty sure a brick doesn't have a drag coefficient of 0.28!

[hilly10]

I took one at one yesterday whilst in the dealers and decided that even with 50% discount I wouldn’t want one, styling and aerodynamics of a brick, a bit like the similar sized BMW suv just released, dealer said to me, “they expect me to sell that!

Agreed they are not very nice, seen better looking shoe boxes