Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

[paule23]

Indeed, electric cars will on average cause twice the road wear of a petrol/diesel version.
Yes, lorries are worse but far fewer of those.

Care to provide the research which supports this?

I will admit I'm a little sceptical. Yes EVs have a battery to carry around, but on average I do not think they are significantly heavier than ICE, so how do they cause more potholes?

[Franky Four Fingers]

Probably because a 300bhp electric motor is hardly any bigger, heavier or more expensive than a 200bhp one. And adding a second one to produce 600bhp total doesn’t cost much more either.

Electric motors are much cheaper and easier to produce than engines and gearboxes so why not?

In addition, a 300bhp motor driving at 60mph is using the same amount of energy as a 200bhp electric motor at 60mph so unlike ICE, a more powerful electric motor isn’t going to reduce the range in the batteries unless the car is driven at consistently higher speeds.

In theory too, four wheel drive EVs should have greater range than their two wheel drive equivalents as there are two or more motors regenerating energy under braking. This doesn’t appear to be Bourne out by the manufacturer’s figures though.

My ID5 is so say 180, i appreciate that doesn't represent the power when I'm pootling around town and its just whats available, however my car half throttle must be better miles per kwh than another car which is 500bhp on half throttle.

[stooo]

Care to provide the research which supports this?

I will admit I'm a little sceptical. Yes EVs have a battery to carry around, but on average I do not think they are significantly heavier than ICE, so how do they cause more potholes?

They are heavier right now.

iX3 2255kg
X3 1875kg

That’s 4 fat blokes.

[Dave+63]

My ID5 is so say 180, i appreciate that doesn't represent the power when I'm pootling around town and its just whats available, however my car half throttle must be better miles per kwh than another car which is 500bhp on half throttle.

Your ID5 is using, say 90 on half throttle but a 360 car will be using 90 on quarter throttle but going the same speed do not using any more (weight differences excepted).

It takes the same energy to move two tonnes along at 60mph regardless of whether the motor can provide 180bhp or 360bhp at full throttle.

The motor is just transferring energy from the battery to the wheels, the size of the motor is how much energy it can transfer in a given time frame.

It takes a whole different way of thinking than ICE.

[stooo]

Engineering Explained has some excellent videos on this - and many many other car related things.

[gunner]

In theory too, four wheel drive EVs should have greater range than their two wheel drive equivalents as there are two or more motors regenerating energy under braking. This doesn’t appear to be Bourne out by the manufacturer’s figures though.

If they use regenerative braking before the traditional brakes, there's the same amount of energy to capture so the benefit of the second motor would be significantly reduced.

[Dave+63]

If they use regenerative braking before the traditional brakes, there's the same amount of energy to capture so the benefit of the second motor would be significantly reduced.

True, but the motors can’t regenerate all the energy in slowing down. Two motors are better than one although not twice as good.

[stooo]

True, but the motors can’t regenerate all the energy in slowing down. Two motors are better than one although not twice as good.

Furthermore, if anyone ever drove a car with a dicky brake balancer you would know that you can’t just brake one axle without much fun and underpants changing.

But I would add I rarely brake harder than I can regenerate.

[Dave+63]

Furthermore, if anyone ever drove a car with a dicky brake balancer you would know that you can’t just brake one axle without much fun and underpants changing.

But I would add I rarely brake harder than I can regenerate.

Me neither, driving an EV does change the way you drive, and for the better too.

[Ruggertech]

Could it be that the instant 100% torque enjoyed by electric vehicles tears up the tarmac more at junctions etc than ICE vehicles? I don't know if this is so, just a thought.

[stooo]

Could it be that the instant 100% torque enjoyed by electric vehicles tears up the tarmac more at junctions etc than ICE vehicles? I don't know if this is so, just a thought.

It’s lack lack of macadam rejuvenating oil leaks.

[Ruggertech]

It’s lack lack of macadam rejuvenating oil leaks.

My old 1971 Norton Commando and 1970 Beetle have left enough oil on the roads for decades to come.

[wileeeeeey]

Have a shared driveway and my side is resin. It has sunk and cracked on one corner after 9 months. Not the corner my wheel touches but the corner the neighbours Q5 uses to get on and off. Maybe an electric Q5 would have done it after 3 months.

[Kingstepper]

Could it be that the instant 100% torque enjoyed by electric vehicles tears up the tarmac more at junctions etc than ICE vehicles? I don't know if this is so, just a thought.

No, it’s as simple as EVs being around 20% heavier than ICEs and road wear is proportional to the fourth power of weight.

[Ruggertech]

No, it’s as simple as EVs being around 20% heavier than ICEs and road wear is proportional to the fourth power of weight.

That sounds too mathematical, I'll take your word for it :)

[Kingstepper]

That sounds too mathematical, I'll take your word for it :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

[Ruggertech]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

Got it thanks.
"This means that after 160,000 crossings, the bicycle causes as much damage as the car does when driving on the road only once. From this it can be deduced that a large part of the damage in the streets is caused by heavy motor vehicles compared to the damage caused by lighter vehicles."
So as 20% heavier cars become more prevalent, road wear accelerates proportionately, yes?

[Dave+63]

A 20% heavier car would therefore cause 1.2^4 times as much wear or just over double (2.074).

Of course a 1600kg EV will still be less damaging than a 2400kg ICE! (assuming both have two axles, if the ICE were a six wheeler then we’d be back to parity).

[Ruggertech]

Of course a 1600kg EV will still be less damaging than a 2400kg ICE!

Agreed, but unless the majority downsizes when they change their ICE cars for EV's the weight problem will get worse.
With a few notable exceptions most of the EV's I see on the roads are large suv types (possibly because these are what the manufacturers are pushing with the best deals etc?).

[Dave+63]

I agree, but it’s not just EVs, all cars are massive now. I followed a Tr4 for a while today and it was microscopic in comparison to modern cars.

We’ve all got used to the size of all modern cars that we don’t appreciate just how big even the smaller ones are.

That said, the government rake in enough cash from the motorists that they should still be making sure the roads are fit for purpose, particularly when a large proportion of weight increase is due to government (and EU) legislation.

[Ruggertech]

I agree, but it’s not just EVs, all cars are massive now. I followed a Tr4 for a while today and it was microscopic in comparison to modern cars.

Indeed. A Triumph Spitfire went past my house the other day, looked like a toy car. Nice mind.

[gunner]

So is my Caterham doing more or less harm than my C40?

[Alex L]

Those are just the CPOs that I tend to use on my regular beyond range journeys, but yes I’ve used MFG down in Bristol and that was a pretty good experience too.

Not surprised to hear that power to the sites is one of the most challenging things, are the DNOs the hold up?

I like your multi hubs like the one at Brackley, that’s the kind of place I prefer to plan around, more chance of finding at least one free when I turn up.

Gridserve are just upgrading Scotch Corner Services by the looks of it, from 2 rapids to at least 10, following significant upgrades at Blyth and Wetherby Services. Travelling north on the A1 is getting easier and easier.

It’s a complete lottery as to whether the power is where we want it. We find the sites and then apply to the DNO for the requisite amount of power, it then takes up to 12 weeks for them to respond. Probably one in three comes back positively and then you have to hope the point of connection isn’t miles away as this will make the project unviable. We’ll have another 400 chargers live by the end of the year including some hubs like Brackley, which is where I stopped to charge my car this evening.

[Pete D]

The physics of this would be interesting. Perhaps someone could explain how my Nissan Leaf (1591kg) will cause more road damage than, say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI (1663kg).

Only aspect I can think of is weight on contact patches of tyres. Heavy vehicle plus thin tyres is greater loading on the surface than a similar one with wider (or more in the case of lorries) tyres.


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[Ruggertech]

Only aspect I can think of is weight on contact patches of tyres. Heavy vehicle plus thin tyres is greater loading on the surface than a similar one with wider (or more in the case of lorries) tyres.


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Similar to a fat bird on a bicycle ;)

[Pete D]

Similar to a fat bird on a bicycle ;)

Indeed. I’m minded of ladies in stiletto shoes overloading a floor capable of carrying small tanks….


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[redmonaco]

Agreed, but unless the majority downsizes when they change their ICE cars for EV's the weight problem will get worse.
With a few notable exceptions most of the EV's I see on the roads are large suv types (possibly because these are what the manufacturers are pushing with the best deals etc?).

Probably down to the tax breaks to higher earners. If they weren't there I wonder just how popular they would be

[Passenger]

The bigger the car the greater the status conferred. But the poor car makers have to do something, keep selling those new models, add new bells and whistles, mass.

[Ruggertech]

Probably down to the tax breaks to higher earners. If they weren't there I wonder just how popular they would be

Definitely, there are many posters on this thread that state salary sacrifice etc makes it viable, take that away, not very.

[hilly10]

VW are cutting back production on EV cars for the home market as sales have been very slow.

[Tooks]

VW are cutting back production on EV cars for the home market as sales have been very slow.

I’ve been reading this story for a few days now, and it’s pitched differently dependent on where the owners politics sit. The more climate sceptic publishers are trying to push it as the death knell of the EV, and the start of people pushing back. Has any vehicle type ever been so politicised or polarising? What are they scared of?

In Autocar, for example, reasons for the extended holiday break and delay in the start of production for a new model is cited as “reduced subsidies, higher inflation and recent longer delivery times due to the shortage of parts”, which sounds plausible.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...-ev-production

Germany has had some of the most generous incentives for EVs in Europe, now they’ve been reduced unsurprisingly the huge spike in growth has slowed to something more ‘normal’.

https://www.acea.auto/pc-registratio...-market-share/

Market share of EVs as a percentage of new car sales is only still around that of diesels, indeed petrol car sales are up 12% as well.

All you ICE guys can rest easy, there’ll be plenty of good used cars of all sorts available for a long time yet. ;-)

[RobDad]

Having test driven an MG4 a few months ago - and whilst initially being shocked at the build quality, and surprised at how normal the experience was, my wife and I both felt a touch of motion sickness as driver and passenger, which is a bit odd as neither of us has ever been car sick, even as a child. I’ve since driven 3 more EV’s and on each occasion we both felt the same car sickness whether driving or in the passenger seat. I think it’s the combination of floaty suspension due to the weight of the car, and the surging feeling when accelerating then the regenerative braking. The latest I drove was a Nissan Leaf which left me feeling like I was going to throw up after about 15 mins of driving. Jumped into my comparatively noisy, firmly suspensioned Fiesta ST to drive back from the dealership and instantly felt fine. So as someone who was coming round to the idea, I will be sticking to ICE cars whilst I can for a very odd reason!

[Kingstepper]

^^^ Think that’s a well-known phenomenon. As well as the (de)acceleration there’s also the excessive emf from the battery.






(Joking)

[RobDad]

^^^ Think that’s a well-known phenomenon. As well as the (de)acceleration there’s also the excessive emf from the battery.






(Joking)

For a second there I thought every EV might contain a 5G mast!!!

[Mr Curta]

Having test driven an MG4 a few months ago - and whilst initially being shocked at the build quality, and surprised at how normal the experience was, my wife and I both felt a touch of motion sickness as driver and passenger, which is a bit odd as neither of us has ever been car sick, even as a child. I’ve since driven 3 more EV’s and on each occasion we both felt the same car sickness whether driving or in the passenger seat. I think it’s the combination of floaty suspension due to the weight of the car, and the surging feeling when accelerating then the regenerative braking. The latest I drove was a Nissan Leaf which left me feeling like I was going to throw up after about 15 mins of driving. Jumped into my comparatively noisy, firmly suspensioned Fiesta ST to drive back from the dealership and instantly felt fine. So as someone who was coming round to the idea, I will be sticking to ICE cars whilst I can for a very odd reason!

Obviously not for you two which is what test drives are for, although it's worth bearing in mind that for a smooth ride EVs need a different driving style that can take a little while to adopt. I've clocked over 20k miles in a Leaf in a little over a year shuttling our eldest to and from college and neither of us have felt travel sick even once.

[paule23]

Ive just come back from a holiday in North Yorkshire in my Kia Niro EV. 200 miles to get to the destination with no charging available at the cottages due to where the car park is. However, lots of rapid chargers locally and at areas where we visited so managed to fill the battery back up and top up easily for the journey home.

Paying public charging rates meant the cost was higher than petrol equivalent, but as this is only the second time this year I’ve needed public charging points, and the rest of the time I fill the battery for about £ (250+ miles), I’m very happy with the economy.

Charging infrastructure is definitely improving, even Gretna services had some open chargers following some recent additions to the network.

[Dave+63]

435bhp, 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, all for under £37k

https://www.parkers.co.uk/mg/mg4/xpower/review/

It’s not pretty and doesn’t handle particularly brilliantly apparently but that’s a lot of fast for your money.

[Mj2k]

435bhp, 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, all for under £37k

https://www.parkers.co.uk/mg/mg4/xpower/review/

It’s not pretty and doesn’t handle particularly brilliantly apparently but that’s a lot of fast for your money.

Like the MGF/TF was the end for their 2 seater 'sports car', I hope this finishes them again in their dire branding of MG. Fast paupers, whatever next lol?

[Dave+63]

Like the MGF/TF was the end for their 2 seater 'sports car', I hope this finishes them again in their dire branding of MG. Fast paupers, whatever next lol?

Not quite the end, this is due out next year.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/mg/cyberst...bblio-footer-1

[adrianw]

Sales numbers must be falling, I’ve noticed the radio adverts offering deals, even VW offering interest free

[wileeeeeey]

My Instagram feed is littered with sponsored posts from Skoda, but for all models, not just electric. Dealer groups beginning to feel the pinch perhaps.

Would love the new E Class estate all terrain but starting price of about £65k I think. Not sure who pays that but even an EQC is £70-80k. Couldn’t spend £700pm on a car personally, least of all with 248m range.

[Tooks]

Sales numbers must be falling, I’ve noticed the radio adverts offering deals, even VW offering interest free

I think it’s more that things are settling back to ‘normal growth’, after the insane bubble that has been growing the last couple of years.

VW are offering 0% on the outgoing ID.3, the new facelifted model is just launching Europe wide and here in the UK VW still want you to pony up 4.5% on finance.

EV sales across Europe up over 13% YoY in Europe, Model Y the best selling model and VW the top selling EV group narrowly ahead of Tesla.

https://www.counterpointresearch.com...sales-q1-2023/

I think times are tough for a lot of car manufacturers, interest rates are high, the middle earners are being squeezed from all sides and lower earners priced out of new car anything.

[gunner]

435bhp, 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, all for under £37k

https://www.parkers.co.uk/mg/mg4/xpower/review/

It’s not pretty and doesn’t handle particularly brilliantly apparently but that’s a lot of fast for your money.

So is jumping off a cliff. I think I'd rather do that.

[noTAGlove]

So is jumping off a cliff. I think I'd rather do that.

I feel that many of these circa 4 seconds to 60 mph cars just aren’t designed to handle the speed safely. Comfy tyres and soft suspension. No good for anything but a straight line.

Even my car which does it in 7 seconds can be a dog to handle if you flatten it coming out of a corner. Also the 0-30mph times are brutal even for slower EVs like mine.

[wileeeeeey]

I’ve just got back from two weeks away and drove a diesel auto Renault Kadjar. Not the best but felt nice to drive a normal car and feel it going through the gears again. Made me miss a combustion engine. Something nice about going back to basics.

[adrianw]

I feel that many of these circa 4 seconds to 60 mph cars just aren’t designed to handle the speed safely. Comfy tyres and soft suspension. No good for anything but a straight line.

Even my car which does it in 7 seconds can be a dog to handle if you flatten it coming out of a corner. Also the 0-30mph times are brutal even for slower EVs like mine.

The Ipace is pretty good for what it is, can cope with its performance without issue, it’s only bad habit is that it can wallow in bends on county lanes, but way above the speed limit. I have other cars that are sub 4 seconds, the electric one is no worse

[skmark]

This thread seems to have become more popular with 'the haters' of late, but we took delivery of this on Friday and really impressed with it so far.

[wileeeeeey]

Have to say the new Kias do look superb.

[walkerwek1958]

Like the MGF/TF was the end for their 2 seater 'sports car', I hope this finishes them again in their dire branding of MG. Fast paupers, whatever next lol?

As the owner of a proper MG I agree, just seems wrong to see an MG badge on these Chinese things. MGF would've been a good car if they'd got it right but like most Rover products from that era they didn`t.

Having said that, the history of 'proper' MG is littered with bizarre decisions and design flaws!

[Foxy100]

As well as the (de)acceleration there’s also the excessive emf from the battery

Unbelievable!

(Sorry, bad joke).

Jim 'Noddy' Holder has a take on falling demand in The Intercooler (an excellent app/website if you like proper motoring journalism - check out Peter Robinson's articles for a start):

https://www.the-intercooler.com/libr...electric-cars/