Reply With QuoteThat is of course “mostly” true. Perhaps I should have said “... are the norm ...” and “... nobody needs to own an every day car.”Originally Posted by jaytip
This is already available. It’s called a taxi. I know my answer is a bit flippant but a taxi does the exact thing you just described.
That is of course “mostly” true. Perhaps I should have said “... are the norm ...” and “... nobody needs to own an every day car.”
I don’t own an EV but I can see the other side of the argument. The technology is too new to give your examples, surely you can see this.
How do you know that in 20 years time people won’t be able to do exactly what you just described but in an electric vehicle?
I’m about to pull the pin and order an EV but in my case it’s for a taxi so it makes financial sense for me. I admit that for the average punter, it’s an expensive option, but if you are in a position to drop 40K on an ICE car, why wouldn’t you drop 40K on an electric car which will give you immediate savings on running costs.
Your example of loading up and driving 600 miles for a holiday is a poor one because you could just rent an ICE car for two weeks to do that. Or you could simply plan your journey a little more carefully around the charging network. A Skoda Enyaq is big enough to fulfill those needs and it’s about 32K.
Your argument comes across as sour grapes because you can’t afford the price of a new one. I’m not saying this is the case, it’s just how it reads.
So now you’re changing the criteria of the car...it has to have a 600 mile range now?
Your statement was For me the big issue is cost of purchase, we can't all afford 500 a month for a car and whilst these things are so expensive its a non starter for me.
For example we are touring the UK for holidays this year in a car that cost me 5k 3 years ago , I have driven from Cornwall to Scotland via Liverpool and the Lake District so far its cost less than £100 in diesel with 4 of us in the car and plenty of luggage.
Your big issue seems to be cost and range, neither of them make the car incapable of doing the journey you told us about, the fact that you A: can’t afford it and B: have the inconvenience of having to charge every 200-250 miles is irrelevant.
No one is blinded by anything, I don’t even have an EV yet but if you’re going to make statements about capability try and stick to facts.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 22nd August 2021 at 11:34.
I’m not quite sure why you and others keep trying to say there are ‘sides’ to this, why does every subject have to be so polarised these days?
We have two EVs in our household, and a couple of electric bicycles. We aren’t ‘blinded’ by the EV light, and to be honest I don’t give any concern to what anybody else chooses to drive. We own them because we like them, and they work very well for how we live our lives. The OP started a thread stating that he thought that EVs were a viable option now, and they are for an awful lot of people.
What’s clear is that even for a lot of people where they could be a perfectly viable option, they aren’t interested, which is fine. Why wouldn’t it be? I don’t go around telling people they’re driving the ’wrong’ car, but I do get people telling me I’m a ‘stroker’ for thinking I’m ‘saving the planet’ or killing kids in Congo cobalt mines, or I’m guilty of virtue signalling. I’m trying to answer people’s questions around EVs, or trying to clear up some confusion, myths or misinformation.
To answer your question, there isn’t a large electric estate car available for £5k that will do 600 miles on a charge, but then you already knew that.
In 10 years time I don’t think there will be one either, but then that kind of requirement is still an edge case. Will you be able to do 600 miles in your then £5k EV? Yes, why not, with some charge stops. I’ve done a near 1000k mile round trip recently in a 200+ mile EV, with sufficient charging infrastructure people wont give it a second thought, it will be normal.
EVs are not as scary as people make them out to be, sure they’re expensive for what they are right now, but that’s changing. The really good news is that if you’d prefer to drive a diesel, then you’re good for a couple of decades yet I expect.
Last edited by Tooks; 22nd August 2021 at 11:35.
Apologies if this has already been shared.
Looking at that video, the hydrogen combustion engine looks like a dead end. It’s far easier to go the hydrogen fuel cell route.
I’m very dubious about hydrogen for ordinary cars in any form.
It seems to me it has three big problems:
1. Making the stuff*
2. Distributing and storing the stuff*
3. Using the stuff*
* where stuff = hydrogen suitable for use as fuel
1. It requires a huge amount of energy to make hydrogen ... usually electricity ... which we could use more or less directly as we already have an extremely widely available distribution system for electricity (see point 2)
2. It’s extremely difficult to transport and store as to achieve reasonable energy density it needs to be under enormous pressure (as per the video above) - we’d have to build an almost entirely new fuel distribution infrastructure (whereas we already have an electrical distribution grid that certainly needs enhancing but not building from new
3. Using the hydrogen in a vehicle is either slightly more complicated (hydrogen fuel cell) than an EV or much more complicated (hydrogen combustion) than an EV. And in the latter case even more complicated than an ICE. It seems to me that one of the big advantages of the EV is its mechanical simplicity - no reciprocating engine, no liquid fuel transport/injection, no exhaust, etc..
So ordered a q4 etron 10 days ago, got a delivery date of march 2022.
8 months wait!!!
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^I agree with the concerns about hydrogen.
I'm a bit confused as to why Toyota is putting R&D into this. Possibly there are other financial incentives or could it be there would be IP rights if they can make it work?
They need something to replace the Hilux - choice of the Taliban.
I thought the Hilux was the automotive Chuck Norris. The TG one seemed to be.
Tom,
At the risk of derailing this thread - what ebike do you have? I'm in the market for one.
Thanks
There was a really interesting article in Car magazine recently about this very point, and they mentioned a recent innovation called Powerpaste, which seems to overcome this issue at least, provided it can be productionised and made cost-effective. More here:
https://www.fraunhofer.de/en/press/r...-scooters.html
Can I seriously ask what people think of Tesla divers????
I was called a F……. Arsehole today.
Pitch
Last edited by Pitch3110; 22nd August 2021 at 20:27.
I call them lucky buggers. I’d love to have one but way out of my price range unfortunately.
You show me an ev with a 600 mile range and I’ll be happy…
Bet you can’t.
Thought that’s what he was asking…
Why not try rereading the requirements, think about it and let me know...
He obviously didn’t know who you are Pitch! How shocking!?! Not just any F…… A……
Back on track: given I’m from the land of tougher winters where daylight can be short, what range will the EV get when lights, heater, aircon, wipers and fog lights are running?
Also do you find people hogging/abandoning their plugged in vehicles at free points whereby others can’t get access?
I hear there are more points now than service stations but a service station can see through put of 00’s vehicles in the time to charge one EV and only then if the owner shifts it on full charge.
All the very best buddy
Jbo
EVs are vary popular in Scandinavian countries so are quite capable of withstanding the colder temperatures. Granted, the range is lower in winter, due both to the batteries not performing as well at lower temperatures as well as the energy used to keep the occupants warm.
With the battery sizes these days, it’s not the concern that it is in vehicles with smaller batteries.
People are people and can be totally inconsiderate. Most people aren’t but as the uptake of EVs grows, there will be more cases of charger hogging than there already are, and there are plenty of cases already.
At my local ASDA though, it’s disabled drivers who generally take the charging bays as they’re the closest to the door. Park in a disabled bay though and they burst a blood vessel!
lane assist is tedious . Autonomous emergency braking or collision avoidance is a proper pain in the but on one of my cars . It kicks in quite sharp and the dash warnings are a distraction when you are driving if you are actually in control of the situation
As a family we’ve been looking at the journeys we make and realise we very rarely drive anywhere near 100 miles a day - my commute is 14 miles each way and all my regular haunts are within 30 miles. We have a drive and a garage so we can’t help but think that EV’s are worth looking into when we are considering our next family runaround. I still think it’s likely the savings we make in fuel will just about offset the extra cost of the car (given our low annual mileage) and I think this is where - for a lot of people - it will be a tough decision. If I go petrol instead I can still make the odd 500 mile round trip without range anxiety/waiting for the charge by network to catch up with demand. Then I can jump to an EV in 3 or 4 years time when no doubt the tech and network will be that bit better/well developed. So ultimately it will be a close run thing and involve a fair bit of maths!
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Wouldn't it be better for the environment just to make do with the one EV and the 2 electric bikes...I'm guessing the work commutes aren't all that distant and Lincs is flat, mostly,...just a thought...
Last edited by Passenger; 23rd August 2021 at 09:49.
Agree. It's all a complete pain in the arse. Driving aids for people who can't drive or can't be bothered to pay attention.
So was I, and I hadn't even left the house.
My last 2 cars had autonomous braking and nearly chucked me through the windscreen going through tight gaps a few times
Thanks for the thought, but that would be problematic on the days when we both need to travel out for work to varying locations.
What’s better for the ‘environment’ is minimising travel of any sort. Both cars are only used for essential travel and very occasional leisure use such as visiting family or days out/holidays. We haven’t flown anywhere for holidays for over 10 years now.
I ride e-bikes for fun and the lower mileage trips where I can carry whatever I need to on the bike.
I’ve looked at a cargo bike, they look great but on the lanes/roads around here occupied by the usual thoughtless drivers, it’d only be a matter of time before something unfortunate happened. Lincs may be largely flat, but would you cycle along the A17 for any distance?
Appreciate you've given it some thought.
Hell no to cycling the A17.
The same things were said of ABS at the beginning.
The thing is, people who can’t drive or don’t pay (enough) attention do not come with a label that disqualifies them from buying certain cars.
I thoroughly accept that those assists take some getting used to, though.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
And seat belts probably! I suppose it's a question of where you draw the line and, for me, the autonomous braking thing oversteps the line and is more of a hazzard than a help. I had it on my last car and it regularly cut in alarmingly and unexpectedly. Not once in three years did it intervene in a useful manner.
It did for me when driving a friends Q8 while reversing from a narrow medieval street (that narrowed even more further ahead, something neither waze nor google maps had told me), totally blind and not enough room to open the doors and let swmbo guide me): I inched out of the intersection but the other driver did not yield
One and only time it helped, but it did this time.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The roads nationwide are in a notoriously poor state.
What effect will much-heavier EVs have on carriage-ways? (A quick Google shows the 'kerb weight' of a Nissan Leaf is between 1580 & 1731 kgs. A 2020, petrol, Nissan Micra weighs 1091 to 1170kgs.)
______
Jim.
yes , exactly . Did it with me yesterday on the M1 going down to loughborough . Adaptive cruise is also a bit of a faff at times but pretty fair on a quite ish motorway
Last edited by P ELLIS; 23rd August 2021 at 14:36.
Comparing a medium size family hatchback EV to an ICE supermini?
A Golf GTD is 1500kg, a lot of crossover SUVs like the Nissan Qashqai are well over 1500kg.
I’d say ‘very little effect’ in answer to your question.
The roads are in a poor state, I don’t think you can lay that at the feet of EVs, especially given the comparatively tiny numbers out there.
And the Citroen Relay that I just sold was 3.5T.
I don’t understand the significance of the post
I think JW is highlighting that when things reach critical mass (DYSWIDT?), if on average an EV is heavier / quicker than the average ICE, our already-under-pressure roads network might need extra maintenance due to the tarmac-shredding abilities of cars that can do 0-60mph in less than 5 seconds*
That's how I read it, anyway.
*Alright, not all are that quick but some are.
Let’s use an analogy. it’s akin to putting 4 litres of water in a bath instead of 2 when the bath is rated to hold 100 litres. It would make no difference. There are far heavier vehicles on our roads already than a typical 2.5T electric car.
I think the point isn't about the really heavy stuff but the substitution of ICE for EV.
I'm just guessing Jay, perhaps we should weight (DYSW... ok I'll stop now) sorry wait until JW returns as only he knows what he meant.
The e-Golf (out of production since 2020) had a kerb-weight of 1615kg: that's 18 stones of a difference from your GTD example.
I wasn't attempting to 'lay that at the feet of EVs, especially given the comparatively tiny numbers out there.' - I was wondering about the future wear & tear (particularly at junctions & other acceleration hot-spots) on roads from considerably-heavier cars with the ability to scoot off the line, the numbers of which are going to increase exponentially.
______
Jim.
To put that into perspective, it's one TZer.*
*Not including Barbour overcoat or size 7 shoes with compass in heel.
The wear on roads caused by acceleration is interesting, few vehicles can accelerate from 0-60 in 5s (even EVs) which my Google fu shows generates +0.55G.
Even an average vehicle can exert that under braking and some cars can nearly double it. I think that’s why we see ‘braking bumps’ on the approach to junctions and roundabouts, but very few on the exits.
The grooves in A roads and motorways are caused by HGVs I think.
The answer in all cases is probably more road maintenance required. I think somebody made the point in another thread that cars have to be roadworthy, but roads don’t seem to have to be ‘vehicle worthy’…
The damage to roads is proportional to the 4th power of the axle load, so a car weighing 20% more will cause twice the wear.
Well done.
I can just about recall from my old Uni days (many years ago) that the empirical designs of highways was something to do with 'Damaging Power' and MSA (Million Standard Axles), but lost myself up my own backside at that point!
As an aside to ev’s are only valid if they run on pixie dust or unicorn dung, have a 1000 mile range and weigh less than two tons of feathers I thought this is an interesting short about some of the challenges of renewable electricity generation.
My friend has an MG ZE EV and we've been using electrons whizzing round Surrey. I was very impressed by it's performance and would certainly consider an EV.
Thank you for that - a very interesting read. Certainly if something like that can be made to work cost effectively it would be a game changer. I find it slightly surprising that there seems to be just that one company/research organisation working on it (or anything similar). You would imagine that something like this would need an immense effort to make viable.
(I should say that this is based purely on a quick google and noting that all roads lead straight back to Fraunhofer.)
Fooking excellent, pissing myself.
Love it.
Yes on the hogging front, perhaps if public charging was in line with Tesla’s T&C’s there would not be any issues. At the SC’s you have 5 mins to leg it once charged. If you stay plugged in it’s a £1.00 per min slap on the wrists.
Pitch
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