Electric cars-got to be a viable option now?

[wileeeeeey]

I thought the speedo in the model 3 was the dumbest thing I’d ever seen until I drove one. IMO the speed is in a better position for a quick glance vs inside the wheel.

Really like the app and preconditioning although many ICE cars also do this too.

Would like another smaller display in the wheel for tyre pressures, music/radio whatnot

[RobDad]

I’ve recently moved from diesel to petrol for all the family cars (potential Cupra Born to replace the main car pending a test drive) but I’ve noticed how much more quickly petrol engined cars seem to warm up inside. The hot hatch of the bunch lacks heated seats but doesn’t need them as it’s nice and toasty in 5 mins flat (heated screen will be a godsend come the winter) - another has a heated steering wheel which imho is ridiculous - nice for about 30 seconds then uncomfortably hot. Useful after a snowball fight but otherwise useless!! Who dreams up this techno twaddle that we don’t really want or need?!?

[Longblackcoat]

I’ve recently moved from diesel to petrol for all the family cars (potential Cupra Born to replace the main car pending a test drive) but I’ve noticed how much more quickly petrol engined cars seem to warm up inside. The hot hatch of the bunch lacks heated seats but doesn’t need them as it’s nice and toasty in 5 mins flat (heated screen will be a godsend come the winter) - another has a heated steering wheel which imho is ridiculous - nice for about 30 seconds then uncomfortably hot. Useful after a snowball fight but otherwise useless!! Who dreams up this techno twaddle that we don’t really want or need?!?

Try an electric car - hot air on the screen within a few seconds. Although you can set the timer to defrost the screen so that the car is warm and the windows clear by the time you walk out of the the door in the morning, which is even better.

Re heated wheel - my wife suffers with Reynauds and this helps considerably.

[Franky Four Fingers]

I was looking today at the value of what some electric cars go for on WBAC, it seems that they're not interested in them currently as the prices they're quoting cant reflect market value. I found a newish (23) VW ID5 with 1400 miles on the clock - Marshalls website and ran the figures. It was up for a little under 39k but WBAC are offering just under 25k. They must be taking the piss or simply don't want them.

[James.uk]

I just can’t see the attraction but then I’m a Petrol head. My youngest car is from 1993, my oldest is 1955.
No airbags on anything.. the old one doesn’t have seat belts.
I’d no sooner have an electric car than a ‘smart fridge’
I’m sure they’re great, but they’re not for me.


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[Kippax]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/3...iation-hit?amp

What do I know?

It’s even worse now.

It will level out at some point but in reality EVs are not the solution.


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[Kippax]

Kippax better tell the OEMs they are not viable as well, clearly he knows something they don’t despite their future strategies

I also love it when somebody makes statements with no data. Please supply some links to these EVs that have depreciated but 50% in year 1, I would like to buy them!

Also before me being in the trade is questioned - 10 years at an OEM in engineering, 3 generations of family in the motor trade

Please PM me as I have 10 available at 50% retail value I will gladly give you.


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[Dave+63]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/3...iation-hit?amp

What do I know?

It’s even worse now.

It will level out at some point but in reality EVs are not the solution.


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So an EV is, on average (whatever that’s supposed to mean) worth 47.6% of its new price after three years? That’s hardly 50% after 12 months though is it?
I think that there is also an element of customers no longer accepting the premium pricing of new EVs over ICE once they move into the used market.

You keep saying that EVs are not the solution and maybe you are right but you haven’t yet said what you think the solution is, if not EV.

[Martylaa]

Maybe Diesel is the future, ah no, my mistake, that was 20 years ago we were told that by the Government.

Me personally I’m thinking synthetic fuel might have a big part to play.

If what Wes is saying is right (and with him being in the trade he must know about prices more than the average Joe) then a used EV could be the cheaper way forward for those sitting on the side lines like myself.


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[Tooks]

Please PM me as I have 10 available at 50% retail value I will gladly give you.


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Only if they’re a year old?

[Longblackcoat]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/3...iation-hit?amp

What do I know?

It’s even worse now.

It will level out at some point but in reality EVs are not the solution.


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Except that I’m using my EV daily and have been for over two years. It’s been 100% reliable and costs buttons to run. Cost per mile is about 1/5 that of my other car.

Tell me why this isn’t the solution for me.

[Kippax]

So an EV is, on average (whatever that’s supposed to mean) worth 47.6% of its new price after three years? That’s hardly 50% after 12 months though is it?
I think that there is also an element of customers no longer accepting the premium pricing of new EVs over ICE once they move into the used market.

You keep saying that EVs are not the solution and maybe you are right but you haven’t yet said what you think the solution is, if not EV.

Hi Dave,

Hydrogen and Ammonia will be a better alternative

https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=lcPGX6N-ahGKI2J2


https://youtu.be/QDT-cnNjexA?si=wgyanKDux_7GRf8D

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[Tooks]

A brother in law of mine is the boss at a very large north west based ‘car supermarket’ type place.

On EV residuals he thinks generally they’re just coming back down to where they should be, after the artificial highs of the last couple of years.

Makes sense I suppose, there are far more used EVs available now, and petrol/diesel is relatively cheap, and new EV supply has freed appreciably with delivery times down.

I’m really not sure what they’re ’not the solution’ for, apart from any number of things, but they’re certainly and provably a lower carbon and more sustainable means of personal transport if you’re comparing like for like.

Maybe they’re a bit tricky for used car dealers to get their heads around, but frankly that’s not my problem.

EVs are here, and I don’t see them going anywhere given all the manufacturers activity around them and the fact that whilst the Govt might have moved the new ICE ban 5 years to the right, they haven’t moved the requirement for manufacturers to hit new BEV sales targets or face fines of up to £15k per vehicle.

[Tooks]

Hi Dave,

Hydrogen and Ammonia will be a better alternative

https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=lcPGX6N-ahGKI2J2


https://youtu.be/QDT-cnNjexA?si=wgyanKDux_7GRf8D

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If the future is hydrogen or ammonia, the governments of the world had better crack on with building the infrastructure to service them.

It makes putting in a few hundred thousand charge points look simple.

[Franky Four Fingers]

Hi Dave,

Hydrogen and Ammonia will be a better alternative

https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=lcPGX6N-ahGKI2J2


https://youtu.be/QDT-cnNjexA?si=wgyanKDux_7GRf8D

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It cracks me up when electric vehicles are beaten in to submission due to all the dangers involved but ammonia…..Really? Theyre also not zero emissions …how can that be the future?

[Dave+63]

Hi Dave,

Hydrogen and Ammonia will be a better alternative

https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=lcPGX6N-ahGKI2J2


https://youtu.be/QDT-cnNjexA?si=wgyanKDux_7GRf8D

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Thanks for your response, my personal view is that we are highly unlikely ever to see either hydrogen or ammonia fuelled cars on the roads in anything other than tiny numbers for a very short period of time.

That said, I did once actually see a Toyota Mirai parked at the side of a road.

[stooo]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/3...iation-hit?amp

What do I know?

It’s even worse now.

It will level out at some point but in reality EVs are not the solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From the article:

//Even supposedly out of favour diesels performed much better than electric cars, retaining an average 6.1 per cent of their value.//

What!?

…and I thought consensus was that the Toyota thing was vaporware - nothing more than a distraction from them not having a great EV story?

[Kippax]

It cracks me up when electric vehicles are beaten in to submission due to all the dangers involved but ammonia…..Really? Theyre also not zero emissions …how can that be the future?

If you step back at some point and not take it so personal then you may look at a world where all three can work side by side.

The market at the moment for EVs are taking a nose dive. The manufacturer have been put under massive pressure to hit their objectives before our PM decided to delay the mandate.

EVs will level out and will become affordable however my point was if you purchase new then be ready to be hit in the pocket I mean Christ I’m trying to help someone not make a bad decision, however people that have already taken that decision takes it to the next level in trying to justify why I’m wrong.

You’re all big boys and I’m sure what decision you make, in your head is the right one.


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[mutanthands]

Who's buying a new car and not thinking they'll take a depreciation hit?!
The last 3 years have been an anomaly, the market is simply correcting itself back to normal.

[tertius]

Hi Dave,

Hydrogen and Ammonia will be a better alternative

https://youtu.be/Pcm4fCDQ4dY?si=lcPGX6N-ahGKI2J2


https://youtu.be/QDT-cnNjexA?si=wgyanKDux_7GRf8D

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I'm not in the least bit interested in an EV but there is no chance that hydrogen or ammonia will be anything but a niche solution for private transport. The energy efficiency is so much lower than for EVs without even considering the almost insurmountable distribution and packaging challenges.

[Cynar]

I’m getting the equivalent of 200 to 300 mpg out of my EV.
if that’s not a viable option then I don’t know what is.
If that doesn’t offset any potential extra depreciation then I’ll eat my hat.
The truth is EVs ARE the solution for many people, and anyone who refutes that is an idiot, however long they’ve been in the ‘trade’.
For some they’re not, but to dismiss them for everyone is imbecilic.

[Kippax]

Who's buying a new car and not thinking they'll take a depreciation hit?!
The last 3 years have been an anomaly, the market is simply correcting itself back to normal.

I’ve just sold an 8 month old EV for £27k that the RRP was £60k new, in my 20 plus years in the trade this is not normal.


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[Kippax]

I’m getting the equivalent of 200 to 300 mpg out of my EV.
if that’s not a viable option then I don’t know what is.
If that doesn’t offset any potential extra depreciation then I’ll eat my hat.
The truth is EVs ARE the solution for many people, and anyone who refutes that is an idiot, however long they’ve been in the ‘trade’.
For some they’re not, but to dismiss them for everyone is imbecilic.

So by name calling makes you more credible?


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[Franky Four Fingers]

I’ve just sold an 8 month old EV for £27k that the RRP was £60k new, in my 20 plus years in the trade this is not normal.


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Firstly we've never really had a huge EV market until recently, we've never had the after effects of covid before or Brexit and of course the crap still being caused by the Ukraine. Going back a few months ago you were living in a 2nd hand boom now your not. It means FA about the viability of Evs

[Dave+63]

I’ve just sold an 8 month old EV for £27k that the RRP was £60k new, in my 20 plus years in the trade this is not normal.


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Someone took a big hit but someone else got a great deal.

The answer as to whether it’s a financially sound purchase depends entirely on whether you are the first or second owner.

I’d personally jump on an 8 month old Polestar 2 at £20k or under and never have a seconds regret.

[Tooks]

Someone took a big hit but someone else got a great deal.

The answer as to whether it’s a financially sound purchase depends entirely on whether you are the first or second owner.

I’d personally jump on an 8 month old Polestar 2 at £20k or under and never have a seconds regret.

Exactly, before the sceptical message was ‘EVs are too expensive, they’re not affordable’ now it’s somehow ‘they’re too cheap’ and you’ll lose money if you buy one.

No thoughts as to the money saved in the use phase, if I keep my current EV for 5 years and it covers the planned 130k miles, it will have saved me a net £21k in fuel costs, or over 40% of its purchase price. That’s if fuel doesn’t get any more expensive. The numbers look even better if you buy a used one at current prices.

It’s swings and roundabouts, and like all sizeable purchases it’s a personal decision. There are still plenty of people all too willing to tell you you’ve purchased the wrong vehicle, but only when you’ve somehow personally affronted them by choosing an EV. The mind boggles.

[ryanb741]

IMHO I find my Tesla far more fun to drive than any ICE car I've owned. Plus the tech is cool. So even if there weren't any cost savings on the mileage I'd still go with the Tesla as I really enjoy driving it.

[Gareth-W]

IMHO I find my Tesla far more fun to drive than any ICE car I've owned. Plus the tech is cool. So even if there weren't any cost savings on the mileage I'd still go with the Tesla as I really enjoy driving it.

Fun?

It’s an appliance Ryan, no more, no less…

[Mr Curta]

For most of us a car is primarily a way to get from A to B, but it's nice to be able to nip past slower traffic on a country road or accelerate quickly out of a bend and whatnot. Even my Leaf does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds and is much more enjoyable to drive than my old E350 which had a much higher top speed that was only really useful in Germany and was noisy and crap in the snow and cost a fortune to service.

[ryanb741]

Fun?

It’s an appliance Ryan, no more, no less…

Well all cars are an appliance but the Tesla has some things that make it pretty cool to drive. The acceleration is fast, things like autopilot, the sheer level of customisation and data available through the touchscreen, the fact you don't need keys, all the on board tech etc. I've never owned a Porsche or Ferrari etc so I can't compare to that obviously but compared to cars like Audis, BMWs, Range Rovers etc it is just much more pleasurable to drive the Tesla. All IMHO of course.

[Kingstepper]

It cracks me up when electric vehicles are beaten in to submission due to all the dangers involved but ammonia…..Really? Theyre also not zero emissions …how can that be the future?

Ammonia cracked and hydrogen used in H2 fuel cell. Zero emission.

[gunner]

So by name calling makes you more credible?

Name calling aside, they are clearly viable for some people and therefore they absolutely are a viable option (the original question). Are they the panacea for ecological and motoring problems? Of course not.

Well all cars are an appliance but the Tesla has some things that make it pretty cool to drive. The acceleration is fast, things like autopilot, the sheer level of customisation and data available through the touchscreen, the fact you don't need keys, all the on board tech etc. I've never owned a Porsche or Ferrari etc so I can't compare to that obviously but compared to cars like Audis, BMWs, Range Rovers etc it is just much more pleasurable to drive the Tesla. All IMHO of course.

I'd argue that most of the useful things are available elsewhere in both ICE and EV cars (I have wifi, autopilot and app based remote start on my 2015 diesel). The majority of the rest is trinkets and gimmicks IMHO.

[Longblackcoat]

For most of us a car is primarily a way to get from A to B, but it's nice to be able to nip past slower traffic on a country road or accelerate quickly out of a bend and whatnot. Even my Leaf does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds and is much more enjoyable to drive than my old E350 which had a much higher top speed that was only really useful in Germany and was noisy and crap in the snow and cost a fortune to service.

The average EV has a lot more usable power than the average non-EV, primarily through instant acceleration and zero-RPM torque - they've simply moved the game on. It's not dissimilar to the situation when quick turbodiesels arrived and were way more useably quick than their naturally-aspirated petrol equivalents. Anyone remember how slow a 1.8 Mondeo felt?

[Longblackcoat]

I'd argue that most of the useful things are available elsewhere in both ICE and EV cars (I have wifi, autopilot and app based remote start on my 2015 diesel). The majority of the rest is trinkets and gimmicks IMHO.

Out of interest, what car is that?

[gunner]

Out of interest, what car is that?

Volvo XC90.

[Tooks]

Ammonia cracked and hydrogen used in H2 fuel cell. Zero emission.

Whilst personally I’m quite excited by the potential applications for ammonia cracked hydrogen, especially once we have an excess of zero carbon electricity, it seems unnecessarily complicated for use in a humble road car.

But there’s the infrastructure required to get it to millions of cars, which of course is a familiar argument common to this thread.

But hey, if they become viable and take off, then I might buy one. Others will no doubt still be waiting for the ‘next big thing’ though and contributing to the “Hydrogen cars - got to be a viable option now?” thread…

Something that hasn’t been mentioned much is the mindset of the next generation of the motoring public.

Older folks, like the demographic on this forum, are mostly pro fossil fuels, it’s all they’ve known. Whilst I drive mostly electric now, except for the camper and some work vehicles, I’ve done 100s of thousands of diesel/petrol miles, and caused my damage.

My 10 year old daughter is far more accepting of electricity powering a car, one of the cars she first named was a Tesla, presumably from watching YouTube videos. I fully expect that should she learn to drive and get a car it will be powered by electricity.

There’s millions like her, and over the next decade or so many of them will be transitioning to driving and car ownership. I think the chances are that those cars will be electric rather than hydrogen, but as none of us have a time machine I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

[senwar]

I was looking today at the value of what some electric cars go for on WBAC, it seems that they're not interested in them currently as the prices they're quoting cant reflect market value. I found a newish (23) VW ID5 with 1400 miles on the clock - Marshalls website and ran the figures. It was up for a little under 39k but WBAC are offering just under 25k. They must be taking the piss or simply don't want them.

To balance this out, WBAC offered me just over £26k on Monday for a 22 month old Velar HSE Rdynamic. It cost me £60k and that was after a 10k discount. They offered £44k on 30 April. So similar I think they don’t want it - probably due to the rising insurance issues. So it’s not just electric.

I’ve sold it via carwow for just over £35k.

There’s a bit of reset happening here after the mad second hand prices I think too.

[Dave+63]

I think that there’s also an increasing disparity between the price offered by, in particular, WBAC and the forecourt price of cars these at the moment.

Whether that be WBAC taking advantage or increased reseller margins, or even a combination of both, I don’t know.

[Toshk]

To balance this out, WBAC offered me just over £26k on Monday for a 22 month old Velar HSE Rdynamic. It cost me £60k and that was after a 10k discount. They offered £44k on 30 April. So similar I think they don’t want it - probably due to the rising insurance issues. So it’s not just electric.

I’ve sold it via carwow for just over £35k.

There’s a bit of reset happening here after the mad second hand prices I think too.

My opinion as well. Prices are falling on everything expensive.

[Boss13]

I’ve just sold an 8 month old EV for £27k that the RRP was £60k new, in my 20 plus years in the trade this is not normal.


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Interesting.
Which car was this and what was the mileage?

[Longblackcoat]

My opinion as well. Prices are falling on everything expensive.

The economy is not doing well, growth is minimal, interest rates look likely to stick where they are for a good while to come. With lower disposable incomes and economic uncertainty added to the technological shift we're seeing in the market, I'm not remotely surprised that second-hand values are falling.

Great time to be a used car buyer, a terrible time if you paid list price a year or so back. At the time, however, there were no bargains to be had and supply was severely constrained, so if you needed a new car then, you didn't have much of a choice.

[RobDad]

I pulled up at my local Ford garage a few weeks ago, and the sales manager came outside to look at my car (- a rather luminous coloured Fiesta ST - the very last run-out model) and commented how he’d rather drive it around the local country lanes than the 4 wheel drive mustang mach E he then took me out for a spin in. You just don’t get the same experience without a manual gearbox and the crackle of the engine. However, for a daily car I am now looking at the Cupra Born, as I have a driveway and my country lane commute is only 14 miles each way, and I very rarely travel more than 75 miles from home. Of If I do in future and can’t be bothered to navigate the charger network I’ll take the fiesta. My point is, an EV makes sense dependent on your circumstances. With my commute, driveway parking and access to a fun go-kart when I get bored with the EV, it makes sense to me. It’s also helped by the cars becoming more readily available with a price/realistic range I can easily live with. Ymmv, but my view has changed over a relatively short period. And you can have a foot in both camps if you like, ICE and EV.

[Tooks]

. And you can have a foot in both camps if you like, ICE and EV.

Exactly, but these days on social media you have to pick a side it seems…

As I said earlier, I drive mostly EVs now but for nearly 27 years it was exclusively diesel or petrol, I’ve experienced both those and EVs in how I use a car, and they all do the job.

I like cars, I’ve had some beautiful petrol head motors over that time, but I also like some EVs, and they serve myself and my wife very well for everything we need a car for.

Why people try to propagate this ‘you’re either with us or against us’ attitude I don’t know.

I think you’ll like the Born, it’s a good practical hatchback, with a better interior than most ID.3s, and charges reasonably fast as well.

[UMBROSUS]

I don’t mind both at all

I drive a diesel car mainly because I don’t have a drive and the closest public charger is around a 2 mile trip which is not as convenient as just filling up.

Add to that the cost to buy and I did not bother.

Just not great for me as price wise I could not afford the larger range models so having it plugged in at night would be pretty important.

The price per mile I am less worried about as it is unlikely there will not be a duty added to the miles you drive. I think I read by 2030 or so there would be a shortfall of 13 billion from fuel duty with a charge of 5-6p per mile being suggested to make this up.

It seems if you adopted it early and could get a salary sacrifice or similar on the purchase had access to charging at home and the range fitted your life then they were/are great.

To be sure they are viable for some but so is a push bike. Horses for courses I guess.


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[Tooks]

I I think I read by 2030 or so there would be a shortfall of 13 billion from fuel duty with a charge of 5-6p per mile being suggested to make this up

I haven’t read that, but wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest, it’s inevitable and VED starts in 2025 IIRC as well.

At some point the fuel escalator will be back as well I suppose, especially when the Govt of the day wants to push people into EVs post the new ICE ban.

I’ve never criticised anybody’s choice of car, that’s up to them as you say, but there is so much misinformation even on this thread, and that’s what I get exercised about.

Opinions are just that, but we shouldn’t accept people making up facts.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

You just don’t get the same experience without a manual gearbox and the crackle of the engine.

Thought the ST had an artificial piped engine sound in the cabin?

[stuie-t]

I don’t think there is any serious doubt that electric motors will be the method of propulsion for vehicles going forward, the only question is the mechanism for energy storage. The future may well be hydrogen fuel cells or some other new technology, in the meantime battery storage will see us through and we may well end up with a hybrid of battery and fuel cell eventually. Therefore I don’t see the current crop of BEVs as a dead end, rather the logical first step to electrification.


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[UMBROSUS]

I can’t remember where I read it I work in a Weighbridge so we get loads of bumff through the post the manager gets me to throw out.

To be fair I guess there is also the 5p fuel duty rebate still to be added back on so back up to like 58p a litre again


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[wileeeeeey]

Fun?

It’s an appliance Ryan, no more, no less…

Wouldn’t disagree too much with you there.

It’s a car, it gets from A to B, the app is good, charging at home is great, I like not carrying a key and no idling noise, but it’s a white good. A fast fridge.

[stooo]

Wouldn’t disagree too much with you there.

It’s a car, it gets from A to B, the app is good, charging at home is great, I like not carrying a key and no idling noise, but it’s a white good. A fast fridge.

…. Unless you have a penchant for naming cars and it is called Gaylord.

Then it becomes an electric back road weapon.