Reply With QuoteGood stuff, I think...seems the inflexion point has come early. give it a couple of years and BEV's cheaper than ICE?Originally Posted by noTAGlove
Mine is on a PCP so I’d have multiple options at the end of the term.
Good stuff, I think...seems the inflexion point has come early. give it a couple of years and BEV's cheaper than ICE?
You have options from the half way point.
I came out my last PCP with a massive chunk of equity thanks to the Covid car market. And at the half way mark for my current PCP I am once again looking at a chunk of equity.
The above said my wife is probably not in the same position as me.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
My lad is going electric…just depends what, it fits his mileage and he can charge on his drive, we've been looking at the prices over week or so and it’s obvious things are normalising. ID3, E Trons, a lot of pugs and Citroens, Nissans, Mazdas and hyundais, all under 20k.
Hes been doing his man maths, he's already with octopus, the EV tariff will fully charge for under a fiver and if he goes for the id3 he's going to get around 200 miles for that. He goes to Kidderminster from Wilts perhaps once every 3 months so it'll do that on a charge no issue.
Good news, and agree that used EV prices have come down to sensible levels now from ridiculous highs.
I just need Taycan prices to come down more now…
Electric cars not a viable option
Within 12 months they are depreciating over 50%.
If you are going down that route don’t pay cash or standard hire purchase, take advantage of a PCP or Contract Hire where you can give it back.
You’ve been warned.
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I am 47 and of the same opinion.
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So that makes them a good used buy ?
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You can pick up a good deal on used however I wouldn’t pay cash. PCP all the way.
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Looks like we’ve got a sleeper
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So they’re not viable because you wouldnt pay cash?
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A lot of that may be skewed by Tesla shafting their own customers by slashing their prices (probably to where they should be).
There is no logical reason an EV should depreciate any faster than an ICE. They have similar lifespans and markets.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Which Evs are depreciating 50 percent in a year ?
They are not a viable option. My point is, if you want one don’t pay cash. As the residual values are poor.
I tend to keep well away from topics like this as. I’ve been in the trade for many years and know the market very well. The electric car will soon be replaced by other alternatives as the practicality of it is not viable. The consumer look at three reasons to purchase
1 is it more practical than what I’ve got? No.
2 is it more affordable? No
3 does it save time? No.
Anyway, that’s my input before I get some know it all who’s never been in the trade telling me I’m wrong.
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Many.
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Here comes the ‘know it all’ who isn’t ‘in the trade’ with a comment…
We own two EVs, one nearly 3 years old, the other nearly two years old. Both are still worth more than 50% of what we paid for them.
On that basis, I’ll need a bit more persuading that what you’ve said has any merit at all.
Also, I considered a lot more than your 3 somewhat arbitrary questions when deciding what to replace my previous car with.
What are these other more practical alternatives by the way, putting aside the fact that the EVs I’ve owned and the others on sale today are plenty viable?
No chance. You’re deluded if you think your 3 year old EVs are worth more than 50% of its initial RRP.
Loads of dealers now are refusing to take non manufacturer cars in as part exchanges.
Like I said I’m out! You are the very reason I don’t get involved.
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You are in the trade and undoubtedly may have more info than others here, me included.
Not sure you could claim to have more info and research at your fingertips about residual values than those boffins who set the PCP GFVs.
They certainly are not assuming a 50% loss of value in one year and actually those EV predictions look fairly similar if not better than many ICE quotes when I recently compared.
Surely I could be missing something about the process, do enlighten me if I am!
As for the practicality of EVs not being viable. You’ve lost me there.
Deluded? I was responding to your assertion that EVs are worth 50% at 1 year old, but how can that be the case if they’re approaching that figure at 3 years old?
I also don’t see what a used EVs value has to do with its viability as a personal passenger car.
You’re looking at it from a very narrow angle, as a person ‘in the trade’.
Im in the trade…35 years, I think you're wrong
Id also conclude that just because of depreciation, as does any car, it doesn't make them any less a viable option. What about if you dont care about residuals and keep it for years?
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 6th November 2023 at 00:11.
Kippax better tell the OEMs they are not viable as well, clearly he knows something they don’t despite their future strategies
I also love it when somebody makes statements with no data. Please supply some links to these EVs that have depreciated but 50% in year 1, I would like to buy them!
Also before me being in the trade is questioned - 10 years at an OEM in engineering, 3 generations of family in the motor trade
I’m apparently a know it all because I’m not in the trade but there are so many holes in your argument that you could drive a juggernaut (ICE or EV) through it.
Just name one please.
This. Finance companies are in business to make a profit, not to subsidise motorists. Your PCP or lease payments should not only cover depreciation but the finance company’s operating costs and profits too.
If they believe EV residuals will be through the floor then monthly payments would be huge.
Finance companies got their fingers burnt back in 2015/16 when three year old EVs were worth less than the final payment and many early adopters handed their cars back; they’re not likely to fall make that mistake again.
Out of interest, what did/do you sell and who is your consumer?
This sounds like an RFP for a tractor, not a car.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310303470061
HSE Black OTRP £77,495
2022 with 28k £37,990
Actually a touch more than 50%…ouch
Ouch indeed!
Being pedantic though, that’s actually eighteen months old rather than twelve.
Still a huge hit for anyone buying an ipace though.
Last edited by Dave+63; 6th November 2023 at 10:11.
ipace has been glued to the showroom floors for some time now. They are only selling as they've been available on the salary sacrifice schemes when many alterative aren't and the prices are competitive as JLR want they away.
Three people at work just got their new elec cars, 2 got model ys, 1 got a ipace. All had orders in for bmws and audis that kept getting cancelled / moved back so they went with those cars as they could get them quickly.
Yes, buying a top of the range model of anything, piling the miles on and selling at 18 months old has never been the route to financial sanity.
Can I imagine a person ‘in the trade’ offering to buy in 1 year old EVs for 50% of list price, yes, of course and why not. What do the trade guide books say on EV residuals for 1 year old EVs, anybody know?
I can’t find anything available to me as a consumer for 50% off at 1 year old though.
I just stuck my ‘leggy’ (42k miles) 19 month old ID.4 into WBAC and it’s around 58% of the purchase price.
I plan to keep it for several years yet, well beyond the warranty period, so it’s kind of irrelevant, but at 3 years old and 84k miles I’ll have to factor in the at least £13k fuel saving over an equivalent 300PS petrol car, after deducting my charging costs over the same mileage.
Everybody needs to do what works for them, but I haven’t purchased EVs over the last decade to make money (albeit I sold my old ID.3 for more than I paid in the crazy used EV price bubble), buying depreciating assets isn’t the way to do that.
Affordability and depreciation though key isn’t the only thing that makes something not viable. Whilst I can’t afford a 200k super car that makes it unviable for me, it doesn’t however make it unviable for others.
Likewise losing 50% of value isn’t also most people’s concern especially if it leased etc
Kippax is simply doing what other like minded Ev haters do on Facebook - focusing on one issue and running with it
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Also worth considering that the ipace is one of the earliest long(ish) range EVs and hasn’t been updated since it’s release in 2018.
A new, model must surely be due soon which actually has a decent range for a 90kwhr battery.
Agree with both of you there.
We’re all examples of people who are using EVs every day whilst others shout why they aren’t viable.
The finance companies data points for RV's is taken from a myriad of Trade resources and usually taking a 3 year market view from the retrospective view - i.e.covid "bubble" market. The EV market started to turn downward at the end of Q4 '22 and then has accelerated further down throughout 2023.
Any funder that wrote 2/3/4 or 5 year PCP/Lease agreements prior to these market led events that started in Q4 '22 will be more than likely to feel the negative contract end effect down the line as the EV market continues it's downward path but agreements written from Q2 '23 have reflected a far more conservative RV view for all forms of agreements (EV's especially, ICE less so) on both a personal and business contract basis.
Also anyone looking to end an agreement early (Lease and/or PCP) will be faced with the harsh realities of the current market residual values as well. Any agreement with a guaranteed end of contract value (visible for PCP/not seen for lease) is only any good if one goes to the very end of the term.
I think it’s important to split Residual Value forecasts from the ‘EV Market’ that you say has turned down.
The rate of increase in sales has slowed down, but it’s still year on year growth, over half a million per year projected in the U.K. by 2028.
https://www.statista.com/outlook/mmo...m?currency=GBP
Eh? You cannot split the two market dynamics apart as one directly feeds the other.
And I'm afraid that bringing up Statista as a forecast source (they are merely an on-line data gathering portal with no direct industry insight/expertise) here is not going to hold water either.
Generally I’d be in agreement with you but Renault are going to get their fingers burnt badly when people come to the end of their PCP’s with ZOE’s over the next few years. Values have tanked practically overnight.
I’ve got a GFV on mine of about 8.5K when the contract ends in just over 3 years time. Out of curiosity I put my REG into WBAC and they are offering around 8K now. How much is that likely to be in another three years and an extra 36K miles.
No, I’m making the point that when you say that GFVs are taking a dive, and that does impact PCP/Lease payment figures, and might make somebody think more deeply about whether to pay cash or HP, it’s also worth pointing out that EV sales are still rising year on year.
Sliding residuals doesn’t automatically mean EV (or other vehicles for that matter) sales are going in reverse, as indeed they aren’t.
I shared the Statista link to look forward, but look back if you like, the line is the same.
Last edited by Tooks; 6th November 2023 at 13:40.
Indeed - sliding residuals would suggest plenty of supply/new sales. My cars with very low depreciation were Audi RS4 and VW R32 as both had very limited supply and in the case of the R32 the subsequent model (MkV) wasn't rated as highly.
I’m one week and 500 miles into Tesla/EV ownership and, so far at least, so good.
Whilst I’ve not done an excessively long trip yet, day to day driving is very doable and the charging at home (not actually at home, but local community charger) is very convenient. To get acquainted with the system, I tested Tesla superchargers on day 2 and the speed of top up and location next to main routes leads me to think most basis are covered. Even without access to charger at home and the lower energy prices, the cost per mile is cheaper than my previous ICE cars.
The car itself lacks some of the refinement of the German manufacturers I think, but otherwise the cabin is a nice place to be, the tech is great and the drive is decent.
Early days, but I’m happy with the choice so far.
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Just give me one
And, special cases aside, the most expensive mass-market cars (Jaguar XJ, Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7 Series etc) have always dropped like a stone the minute you take them out of the showroom. I had three S-Class over the years, all bought for a small percentage of the original cost. From recollection, I paid under 25% of list for an S350CDI at 6 years old and that wasn't with monster mileage.
That said, it's interesting that the premiums manufacturers could charge for EVs have fallen away quickly - Volvo have just announced the EX30 which will start at £30/31k (once they've got past the high-priced launch editions), which undercuts all of the 'quality' competition and even Hyundai/Kia/Nissan - and Stellantis and the like are simply going to have to sharpen their pencils if they don't want to get swallowed up by the Chinese wave as traditional British manufacturers were by the Japanese in the 1970s and 80s.
It is interesting, how very rapidly that premium to drive the future appears to have vanished. Good news.
Volvo do appear to have put the speedo for the vehicle mentioned only on the central wizz bang screen, you'd be forever glancing right to check your speed...v.annoying, potentially dangerous. grrrr.
Last edited by Passenger; 7th November 2023 at 10:20.
I do prefer the additional steering column screen in the ID.4 over our Tesla, but once you spend a bit of time in one it’s really not as annoying or in any way dangerous as you might think. We all coped with the original Mini didn’t we?!
Once you’re sat in a Tesla, the actual speed reading sits just off your left hand at the 10 o’clock position, and there is no need to move your head and the road is still fully visible. I’m presuming it’s reversed for LHD cars.
No re the Mini, I only learnt to drive in my 30's.
I just took a squint at an EX 30 review, from curiosity... and to me, it's not just the speedo, it does look too ''fiddly'', finding all the functions, the wing mirrors for example CAN only be moved through the central screen...but as I've said before I'm a neanderthal, I much prefer to keep things simple...also there's' just less then to go wrong.
Must one own a phone to use some of these BEV's, and-or certain of their functions?
I can’t think of any BEVs that aren’t SIM connected via their own comms to get all the features, but the VW e-Up! does integrate with your phone if you want a sat nav display, but it is a low cost legacy model.
My ID.4 has an augmented reality HUD which means I don’t have to look at anything other than through the windscreen, and it overlays nav/travel assist and other info onto what you can see, it’s very clever and makes navigating new routes/motorway junctions very easy.
To be honest, in either car, there might be a bit of screen pressing whilst I’m on the driveway to select a BBC sounds podcast, set the required temp or punch in a nav destination, but after that it’s hands off. Both cars do have voice control which is pretty good for changing temp or setting a new destination etc, but I’m a semi-luddite I suppose and stop short of wanting to have a conversation with the car!
Forgot to add, a phone is pretty handy if your vehicle is app connected, you can do things like remote start cabin cooling/heating and heated seats etc when you’re away from the car, and also remotely monitor what charge state your car is at either at home or on a service station when charging etc.
By no means essential, but very useful to have.
Lots of newer cars are app connected now of course, not just BEVs.
Honestly, I just try and park the car in the shade of a tree or something in the summers and don a jumper in the winters...use the windows, AC-heater as required. It´s simple to be happy but increasingly difficult to be simple so it would seem. Obvs great, wonderful if you like the tech, augmented reality, connectivity etc.
Think I´m in the minority of just wanting my car to be affordable, reliable, dead easy to use and get me comfortably. at legal speed from A to B.
Yes, all of which any car can do, you don’t have to use the features.
Once legislation came in that all new cars needed to have an emergency call facility in the event of a crash with airbag deployment, manufacturers were always going to do other stuff with it.
Not applicable to where you live, but for me when I’m on the train back from work to my nearest station and it’s an evening frost, it’s good to be able to defrost and warm up the vehicle when I’m 10 mins away.
Small pleasures and all that!
My van is simple and not connected but it does have a timer for cabin heating and it is nice to come out on a cold morning to find the windscreen clear of frost and the cabin at a comfortable temperature.
Ah yes simple creature comforts.
Whilst these functions aren’t something you’d necessarily buy a car for, it’s a nice feature to find you have in your new car.
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