Reply With QuoteLolz what a guy.Originally Posted by wileeeeeey
Or the worst of both worlds, you buy a Tesla, other EV and also a V8!!!Honestly not a criticism but it´s laughable, there´s some EV enthusiasts here trying to flog the green creds over the long haul of EV ownership, and at the same time some also supplementing the EV with a big V8...marvellous.
Do what thou wilt...Salud.
Lolz what a guy.
I don’t think it’s about ‘trying to flog the green creds over the long haul of EV ownership’ as much as countering FUD pedalled by people looking to justify to themselves why they won’t be getting one.Or the worst of both worlds, you buy a Tesla, other EV and also a V8!!!
Do what thou wilt...Salud.
Personally, I actively choose not to fly either for holidays or work, others choose differently. Freedom of choice and all that.
I don’t drive an EV to ‘save the planet’ either, as they won’t, I drive one because it fits right in to how I use a car, the ones I have access to are excellent to drive, and it’s a smaller impact than an equivalent ICE car driven in a similar manner over comparable miles.
That’s it, there’s no need to dress it up.
Some councils are good at this stuff, others less so…
I’ll bet that the popping up of those charge posts/bays though will drive a few people in the locality to seriously consider an EV.
Even 4 hours at a time will recharge 28kWh, or 75-100+ miles for most EVs, which will be more than enough to cover most folks mileage requirements.
I don’t see an issue; there are currently petrol, diesel and electric vehicles readily available to buy, who says you have to be in one camp or the other?Or the worst of both worlds, you buy a Tesla, other EV and also a V8!!!
Do what thou wilt...Salud.
In our household we have two diesel, one petrol and one electric, along with a number of petrol powered bikes. It’s really not a problem.
As I wrote, Do what thou wilt, there is no problemo.
Looking at the EVs a different way. For those with home chargers you may never need to visit a forecourt again and the tech moves on with range and charging times. That really convenient when you look at it.
That's what we have done with the i3 - always been charged at home but never used for more than 120 mile round trip - I would not know how to use a charger away from home
but it will always be a "second" car to our other diesel BMW's
Of course it does, everyone looks at electric cars as some kind of dark magic, they really aren't yet its what we started off with. If it wasn't for the introduction of a cheaper, mass produced vehicle it would likely be the reality we would have lived with for the next 100 plus years, so its a very relevant point. They were cheap and it was never about electric V ICE, it was about car or no car. The tech was never lost its just that it lost its market.
Fact remains that diesels to meet ever tightening emissions regs they have to have more increasingly complicated tech to keep those emissions down. If you think that Euro 6 was bad I'm not looking forward to euro 7 which even extends to electric cars.
The issues facing electric cars will be concurred and I'm convinced they will play a huge part of most of our transport in the future….whether we/you like it or not.
Again, horses for courses. We run 2 diesel cars, each gets filled between 1 or 2 times a month. The garage is less than 5 minutes drive away, I never queue, refuelling takes less than 5 minutes and I usually buy a chocolate bar on the way out. I wouldn’t call it even a minor inconvenience!
I charge it at home.
Whilst it’s no more than a minor inconvenience, you certainly don’t miss it when you don’t have to do it!
Isn’t plugging an EV in at night a minor inconvenience?
Yes, even more minor than filling up, it takes me about ten seconds. To be fair, it takes the same to unplug it in the morning too.
Not quite sure I would call it laughable. EVs serve different purposes and many buy for financial or lifestyle reasons (especially when bought on a car scheme).Or the worst of both worlds, you buy a Tesla, other EV and also a V8!!!
Do what thou wilt...Salud.
But I get your point, having an EV on the drive next to a V8 is slightly amusing. But as soon as you start the V8 and it rumbles to life, it all makes sense.
Appreciate you can appreciate my point.
Back on topic sort've, I see Dacia have an EV, starts at 20k euro, there's some kinda Govt deal/ supplement, offering buyers up to 7000 off...so just 13k for those qualifying...this seems more like it, leastways price wise, apologies if this one's been discussed before,
https://ofertas.dacia.es/particulare...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
Last edited by Passenger; 2nd June 2023 at 09:39.
Article by Rowan Atkinson in The Guardian today about Ev' s. Didn't know he studied electrical engineering with a masters in control systems. He has 2 EV and isn't enamoured of them.
What would be interesting to know is the percentage of EVs in private ownership compared with company cars. For instance if the Govt made the BIK the same as for ICE in the next budget, removed the 100% capital allowance and the same VED including the surcharge for over £40k would this influence EV driver's views.
I know they won't at the moment as it's a way of using the tax system to influence behaviour but just thinking aloud
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The VED changes in 2025 will treat EV and ICE exactly the same. It will also be backdated for all existing EVs too.
Or even better get rid of BIK etc and incentivise everyone.
I read that earlier, he's clearly having some doubts, I thought better of posting a link.
Let’s face it, people who aren’t convinced by EVs as personal transport are going to jump to agree with a bloke who ‘owns a couple, but isn’t convinced’.
They however ignore people who have half a million or more ICE miles under their belt who think the opposite?
Atkinson is a confirmed ‘petrol head’ with an exotic multi million pound collection of fossil fuelled powered cars (and for the avoidance of doubt many of which I’d love to drive and own!) so his comments should be taken with that context in mind.
‘E-fuels’ might help with the CO2 side, but do little for NOx or particulates, which in cities is a major issue from road vehicles.
Its his last quote to me which doesn’t make a great deal of sense…..Electric propulsion will be of real, global environmental benefit one day, but that day has yet to dawn.
So at what point do we throw the towel in now with electric vehicles? If we don’t progress with them and improve the technology they will never be of real global environmental benefit. We just stop and then expect to wake up a few years later with the issues ironed out do we?
I wish I shared your faith that spending money with global corporations was gonna solve our environmental problems...My instincts tell me the big beneficiaries of EV are the car makers not the environment, our kids, or kids kids...I don't believe we can consume our way out of this. I'd bloody love to be proved wrong though and only time will tell.
Well, the way I see it is we can either do something slightly different and buy something less damaging when we change cars, or just carry on as we are?
Are you suggesting we do nothing and just keep buying ICE cars from those same global corporations and keep pouring a valuable and finite resource into them and burn it?
It’s an option of course, and seemingly the preferred way forward of many, but unfortunately time will tell and we are headed deep into whatever ‘this’ is.
I’d love to think that we can get off the hamster wheel and stop driving anything at all, stop flying and stop consuming crap we don’t need, but alas I don’t think we will until it impacts us directly.
It’s almost bugger all to do with electric cars, they’re just becoming some kind of dog whistle for those who offer them up as a solution for the worlds ills.
He hasn’t said throw in the towel, just that there’s not yet a global environmental benefit.
Improving the technology of evs won’t make a massive difference anyway, they are already pretty efficient.
Really…..he then says this: Increasingly, I’m feeling that our honeymoon with electric cars is coming to an end, and that’s no bad thing: we’re realising that a wider range of options….
The projected BEV range by 2030 is thought to be around 450 miles, there is a way to go with battery /motor tech and the way the power is distributed throughout the charge cycle. Obviously hes not only talking about that and improvements need to happen everywhere. However those figures don't spring up overnight, Otto didn’t invent the 4 stroke cycle back in the 1800s and then 5 years later we were pushing 150 bhp out of a 1000cc petrol engine.
His report baffles me to be honest, hes an engineer, he gets electric vehicle yet sees a future for them but thinks the honeymoon period is over
Was solely commenting on the quote you quoted.
What do you mean ‘the way the power is distributed throughout the charge cycle’?
An ev is already something like 70% efficient, hardly the scope for improvement there was with combustion engines.
Last edited by Kingstepper; 4th June 2023 at 12:46.
Battery / power management has come on leaps and bounds. Forgetting EVs the way that standard ICE vehicles use their battery power has changed rapidly even over the last 5 years.
However battery and motor tech is still growing.
https://www.futurebridge.com/industr...the-ev-market/
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Will make little difference. The 70% I quoted may be an underestimate - states 85-90% efficiency here https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/...m%20A%20to%20B so you’re chasing 10% or so.
Then there’s crap like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-e...t-65602519.amp
I suppose it depends whether you’re a glass half full or empty person how you receive that solar panel article. Personally, I think it’s a ‘good news’ story as it shows that the ability to recycle old panels is there once demand is as well.
Solar is an overall success story even in our northern country, according to Gridwatch 24% of our electricity demand is being produced from solar at the moment, 1% more than the CCGT turbines.
That’s without all the homes with solar installed that is reducing the demand on the grid itself.
We need to decarbonise as quickly as possible in three areas:
* Electricity generation
* Transport
* Heating
They have to be tackled concurrently, not one at a time, but if the first can be done then it offers a genuine solution for 2 and 3, including the production of green hydrogen which is critical to our future energy needs and storage.
We need a mix of energies and technologies going forward, the answer cannot be more oil and gas, just look what’s happened to our pockets due to our reliance on it this last 18 months.
It depends on what motors are fitted, the 95% stuff you quote is literally losses through heat so most of them are bearing less motors.
Efficiency, power use and weight can always be improved and the motoring industry will always find that tiny little bit more to beat the competition
Youre also forgetting that the % you quote are just the efficiency of the motor, it then needs to convert that energy to useful traction and power at the wheel.
As i said the motor industry will continue to seek every tiny % they can
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 4th June 2023 at 18:14.
Not sure where 95% bearing less motors have come from.
I quoted 85-90% for electric cars and I’m out.
I’ve honestly never thought it an inconvenience as it also means I am home. I also never have to queue to park on my drive, or have to buy an overpriced chocolate bar.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
No, me neither but in answer to kingstepper’s comment, it is an inconvenience when compared to doing nothing.
In aggregate I also spend less time stood holding the charger than I would a pump.
This idea that charging at home is less convenient than refuelling is garbage.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
I know someone who won’t preheat/cool their car if they’ve reversed onto their drive as they don’t want the exhaust going straight in through the house windows or the pollution staining the bricks. No issue with electric and no engine idling on your drive in the process. Petty yes but very nice getting into a freezing/boiling car and still having 100% when I do.
I may be a bit thick but I read R.A op ed very differently.
He said what has already been said here, that building batteries is ecologically very expensive, and their weight is impairing the efficiency of the car.
He stated (inaccurately I believe) that batteries have a 10 years lifespan before their efficiency becomes severely degraded.
He also stated that F1 was moving to much less ecologically expensive synthetic fuel, and that work was in progress to produce it using renewable energy, and that could give a second life to ICE cars. And finally that new battery technology was needed to allow EV to become a fully convincing alternative. In other words, I read it as what we have for the moment is the ICE equivalent of having a man holding a red flag walking in front compared to using a horse-drawn carriage.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I sincerely hope Lithium batteries are not the EV end game, I think most people understand they are current-gen, but even in this form it is more than viable, a better everyday experience than ICE and will aid the development of even more efficient systems by offering a larger market segment to develop against.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Yes do nothing, in the sense of don't be compelled to buy any new car every year or 3, maintain the car you have and drive it for 10, 20 years or longer, drive when you must, whilst walk/ cycle more, using public transport when it's available. BUT at the moment the EV 'solution' means such an approach barely registers a flicker of interest, it's not a discussion most folks think we need to have yet and therein lies the rub, what RA was getting at.
Aren't we all already to one extent or another experiencing the impacts of climate change...our weather patterns have changed here noticeably in the last dozen or so years, don't you notice changes in the UK?
But we digress, and the thread title was about their viability and not the wider, existential issue...IF you´ve the means I guess they´re viable, most things are with sufficient cash... bit like Elno and Jeff with their rockets...they can, so they do, and really shouldn´t everyone at least have the opportunity to drive a car of the future in the present, the wheeelz of capitalism don´t turn themselves after all!
Last edited by Passenger; 5th June 2023 at 09:27.
I wouldn’t worry, it’s just like someone ordering a large Big Mac meal with a Diet Coke. We will use about 50000 litres of Diesel this week delivering stuff so I I’m happy to drive a car with an engine.
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Equating EVs with billionaires rockets is not really that relevant is it?
On the subject of big numbers, vehicles on UK roads drive on average 813 million miles per day, and account for about 34% of CO2 emissions. If we think that cars/vans/trucks aren’t a problem worth tackling then we need to think again. As usual, we seem keen to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and whilst I see a future for Hydrogen if it can be made using green electricity rather than cracked with gas, we already have a massive unfulfilled demand for green Hydrogen before we can even consider it for passenger vehicles.
Yes, I have noticed weather patterns changing, and Mother Nature has only just got started I’m sure. Hand waving it away at this point seems premature, but us humans are expert at kicking the can down the road.
On the buying new cars thing, forgive me for disagreeing with a comedy actor with a legacy degree, but EVs don’t get scrapped at 3 years old when the owner buys a new one and nor is there any evidence at all that an EV battery is toast at 10 years old.
I’m on my fourth EV, my previous three are all still happily on the road and the first one is probably worth about £10k now, and accessible for others to buy and so on, somewhere down the road an ancient more polluting vehicle will be heading to the scrapyard which is a good thing.
EVs are being demonised by people (or organisations) with varying motives, and I’m not sure why they’re being held up as the answer to the worlds problems when they’re patently not. They are part of the solution though, along with a raft of other things we ought to be doing.
My own use case is that driving an EV over a comparable size and performance and petrol car saves me £5k a year in fuel and 5 tonnes of CO2 emitted, so even allowing for the additional cost to purchase and the CO2 used to build it, it’s a financial and CO2 ‘no brainer’. Keeping my last old ICE car running (it would be 16 years old now, but I can see it’s at least off the road, presumably scrapped) would still be emitting 7+ tonnes of CO2 per year even if it’s build emissions are now sunk.
Sorry to sound like a hippie, but the question shouldn’t be are EVs viable now, it should be is the way we live now viable, and the answer I’m afraid is looking like no.
Now, where’s that AM Vanquish brochure…
Demonised, does seem a bit strong T, it´s only some people asking questions about them and discussing the things, greater detail. Equating EV´s with billionaires rockets was meant to be a humorous way of raising the point about whether we should DO or BUY a thing, consume considerable resources, just because they OR we can pay to do so, sorry that´s me sounding like a hippy.HAHAHA DOBUY geddit... Agree with your wider point about the need for a thought out, joined up plan addressing the big picture, holistically. Sigh.
Yeah, I should clarify that I don’t mean on here, but there’s a raft of stuff out there the last few months in various media, which is beyond the usual healthy scepticism and often just misinformation.Demonised, does seem a bit strong T, it´s only some people asking questions about them and discussing the things, greater detail. Equating EV´s with billionaires rockets was meant to be a humorous way of raising the point about whether we should DO or BUY a thing, consume considerable resources, just because they OR we can pay to do so, sorry that´s me sounding like a hippy.
Whilst the world argues about whether green energy of all sorts is ‘worth it’, or if it’s affordable, we carry on. That’s probably the easiest course of action though isn’t it.
Sigh indeed!
Why out?
Surely you understand that EV tech is still in its relative infancy and all aspects will improve greatly over time.
You might be happy with 80-90% but manufactures will seek to improve on that or at least make other system that can utilise that even better
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They haven't managed to get to that level in ICE in 120+ years...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
No they haven’t and never will, there’s far too many places that a petrol engine looses its energy from. However they differ hugely from a single cylinder engines that produced about 10hp and revved to 100rpm
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I entirely agree. My point was that I don’t think the priority for EV is in improving efficiency, considering how high it is compared to ICE.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I think that, for a while st least, efficiency (or rather range) will be the big selling point for EVs. To that end, I think manufacturers will strive to improve efficiency even though, astounding say, efficiency is so much greater than ICE as to be incomparable.
As has been pointed out previously, ICE efficiency isn’t such a selling point as they can carry enough fuel for large ranges and fuel is, whilst not cheap, relatively affordable.
I get the range bit but to me it’s an entirely separate issue. You will improve range massively with improvements in battery/charging technologies long before you’ve improved efficiency in a meaningful way to make a marketable difference in range.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
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